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Scott Feldman, the Cubs, and how Theo Epstien is making Terry Ryan's life miserable

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#1 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:35 AM

The Cubs just gave Scott Feldman, a back end of the rotation/swingman, a $6 million base salary plus incentives. The Cubs certainly seem to be setting the market for low-end starting pitching options with this signing and the generous deal they gave to Scott Baker. I'd guess moves like this indicate there will be little to no starting pitching bargain shopping this holiday season, even to get a guy who should profile to be a number five starter, Terry Ryan is still going to have to overpay.

I sure hope he has a few deals in the works for young controlable starters because I'm going to be pretty disappointed if the Twins walk away from this offseason having to overpay for a soft tossing number 4 starter like Joe Saunders or Brandon McCarthy and still be forced to pay $8 million+. In doing so, Ryan would then have to try to con the fanbase into believing that one of these bums is actually an ace.

#2 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:43 AM

Just because two terrible teams like the Cubs and Royals are overpaying for garbage doesn't mean the rest of the teams are going to follow suit.

Feldman for 6 million is a freaking joke. Anything over 2.5 mil for him is overpaying.

#3 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:44 AM

Just because two terrible teams like the Cubs and Royals are overpaying for garbage doesn't mean the rest of the teams are going to follow suit.

Feldman for 6 million is a freaking joke. Anything over 2.5 mil for him is overpaying.


A rising tide lifts all boats.

The Cubs aren't doing the Twins any favors, that's for sure.

#4 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....

#5 John Bonnes

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

Darn. Feldman was a sleeper that I liked.

#6 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....


I would have been happy with Feldmen as a sleeper pick up, but when you pay a guy $6 million it kind of erases the UNDERRATED/SLEEPER label from your title. If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to 2-3 starter.

#7 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:08 AM

A number 2 starter is worth 12 to 15 million a year, not 6.

#8 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:10 AM

Terry Ryan doesn't have Fangraphs bookmarked. $6 million is a 2-3 for the Twins.

#9 Seth Stohs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:27 AM

I'm in agreement with those that anything over about $3-4 million for Feldman was too much, so this signing does nothing for me...

#10 Boom Boom

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:31 AM

Poor TR. How's he supposed to put together a contending rotation on a shoestring budget now?

#11 minn55441

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

TR was on talkin' Twins last night.

After listening the three things I cam away from the discussion. I"m para-phrasing here, so give me a little latitude.

1) [COLOR=#9e0500][/COLOR]Essentially all of the free agent money will be devoted to Pitching.
2) Signing prior to the winter meetings tend to be overpriced.
3) He is expecting to sign enough quality starting pitching so that the team can compete in 2013

The Jury is obviously still out, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt until we start to see him actually make some moves.

He either knows what he is doing and will put together a quality pitching staff or the game has passed him by and it is time for a change. Either way we should know on April 1st.

#12 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:24 PM

We can keep consoling ourselves by saying this GM paid too much for that starter and that GM paid too much for that starter...until it finally clicks that the only way you sign anyone decent is by 'spending too much'...which turns into it really not being too much cause it's the amount needed to get the job done.

#13 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....


I would have been happy with Feldmen as a sleeper pick up, but when you pay a guy $6 million it kind of erases the UNDERRATED/SLEEPER label from your title. If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to 2-3 starter.


6 million isn't gonna get you a #2 or even a top notch #3.

#14 Jim Crikket

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:38 PM

[quote name='ThePuck'][quote name='nicksaviking'][quote name='mike wants wins']Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....[/QUOTE]

I would have been happy with Feldmen as a sleeper pick up, but when you pay a guy $6 million it kind of erases the UNDERRATED/SLEEPER label from your title. If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to 2-3 starter.[/QUOTE]

6 million isn't gonna get you a #2 or even a top notch #3.[/QUOTE]

If you change a couple of words to re-write the sentence as, "If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to BE THE TWINS' 2-3 starter," it becomes a much more accurate statement... unfortunately.
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#15 Twins Twerp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:40 PM

[quote name='ThePuck'][quote name='nicksaviking'][quote name='mike wants wins']Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....[/QUOTE]

I would have been happy with Feldmen as a sleeper pick up, but when you pay a guy $6 million it kind of erases the UNDERRATED/SLEEPER label from your title. If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to 2-3 starter.[/QUOTE]

6 million isn't gonna get you a #2 or even a top notch #3.[/QUOTE]

Would a "Top Notch #3" be a bottom notch #2?

#16 birdwatcher

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:41 PM

Like minn55441, I listened to Ryan on ESPN 1500 with Mackey and Pelissaro last night. I was heartened in particular by one statement in response to a question about the trade involving Buehrle: "I respect Buehrle a lot....but we need several Buehrle's". He left the very distinct impression that he intends to solve the rotation problem, to do it with at least Buehrle quality pitchers, and that he has the financial muscle to do it.

I agree with minn55441. Time will tell. I personally am optimistic, and think the critics are premature in judging things, especially ahead of the winter meetings next week.

There are tons of Feldman's and Baker's out there. I'm holding out for two pitchers better than those two, maybe a third.

#17 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:42 PM

[quote name='Twins Twerp'][quote name='ThePuck'][quote name='nicksaviking'][quote name='mike wants wins']Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....[/QUOTE]

I would have been happy with Feldmen as a sleeper pick up, but when you pay a guy $6 million it kind of erases the UNDERRATED/SLEEPER label from your title. If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to 2-3 starter.[/QUOTE]

6 million isn't gonna get you a #2 or even a top notch #3.[/QUOTE]

Would a "Top Notch #3" be a bottom notch #2?[/QUOTE]

Sure, why not :-)

#18 twinkiesfan11

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:52 PM

I'm in agreement with those that anything over about $3-4 million for Feldman was too much, so this signing does nothing for me...


I'm so sick of Twins apologists and statements like this, quit trying to be an armchair GM. IT'S A ONE YEAR FRICKING DEAL! I don't even care about Feldman specifically, but to justify passing on a player over $2-3 million on a ONE YEAR contract?!?! Come on!!

#19 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:59 PM

I'm in agreement with those that anything over about $3-4 million for Feldman was too much, so this signing does nothing for me...


I'm so sick of Twins apologists and statements like this, quit trying to be an armchair GM. IT'S A ONE YEAR FRICKING DEAL! I don't even care about Feldman specifically, but to justify passing on a player over $2-3 million on a ONE YEAR contract?!?! Come on!!


Makes one wonder what kind of free agent pitcher you'd expect to be able to sign for 6M a year...

#20 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:10 PM

Tons of Feldmans and Bakers? What is your definition of "tons"? Because I would put them in the top 20 easily.

#21 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:11 PM

[quote name='ThePuck'][quote name='nicksaviking'][quote name='mike wants wins']Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....[/QUOTE]

I would have been happy with Feldmen as a sleeper pick up, but when you pay a guy $6 million it kind of erases the UNDERRATED/SLEEPER label from your title. If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to 2-3 starter.[/QUOTE]

6 million isn't gonna get you a #2 or even a top notch #3.[/QUOTE]

Have you not been following this team? The Twins annually wedge a $6 million pitcher into the 2 spot regardless of his actual talents. This team hasn't overpayed for pitching unless they wore a Twins uniform the previous year.

#22 jharaldson

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:28 PM

I agree with minn55441. Time will tell. I personally am optimistic, and think the critics are premature in judging things, especially ahead of the winter meetings next week.


When would critics not be premature? I agree that Terry Ryan deserves more time but I would put out there that if he has not signed a starting pitcher to a guaranteed Major League contract by December 31 I would start thinking this offseason feels like a failure.

#23 AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:35 PM

Okay guys...the ONLY reason the Cubs signed Baker and Feldman is to hope they show they are healthy and can be somewhat good in a possible attempt to then dump them midseason in hopes to get a decent prospect. The only way people want to go to the crappy Cubs is if they overpaid and that they did for Feldman and Baker.

#24 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:52 PM

[quote name='nicksaviking'][quote name='ThePuck'][quote name='nicksaviking'][quote name='mike wants wins']Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....[/QUOTE]

I would have been happy with Feldmen as a sleeper pick up, but when you pay a guy $6 million it kind of erases the UNDERRATED/SLEEPER label from your title. If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to 2-3 starter.[/QUOTE]

6 million isn't gonna get you a #2 or even a top notch #3.[/QUOTE]

Have you not been following this team? The Twins annually wedge a $6 million pitcher into the 2 spot regardless of his actual talents. This team hasn't overpayed for pitching unless they wore a Twins uniform the previous year.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I've been following this team...doesn't mean I'm gonna stop pointing out the idiocy of their actions

#25 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

I agree with minn55441. Time will tell. I personally am optimistic, and think the critics are premature in judging things, especially ahead of the winter meetings next week.


When would critics not be premature? I agree that Terry Ryan deserves more time but I would put out there that if he has not signed a starting pitcher to a guaranteed Major League contract by December 31 I would start thinking this offseason feels like a failure.


It's not like Terry Ryan was away from the team when Smith was the GM...

#26 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:58 PM

It's not like Terry Ryan was away from the team when Smith was the GM...


While you're not necessarily doing this, Puck, this kind of thinking is one of my biggest pet peeves of late.

We just don't know what kind of influence Ryan had during Smith's term as general manager. He could have stamped approval on every deal the team made. He may have been ignored 90% of the time. Bringing up the fact that he was with the team and implying he held decision-making power during Smith's run is pure conjecture and it's really starting to grate on my nerves.

Ryan is the general manager. Judge him for his actions while he's in the big chair and let us refrain from speculating and gesticulating madly on what he was doing while somebody else was in it. Most of the time, it's nothing more than a platform to bitch about the front office with little or no substantiating evidence to support the claims.

#27 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:04 PM


It's not like Terry Ryan was away from the team when Smith was the GM...


While you're not necessarily doing this, Puck, this kind of thinking is one of my biggest pet peeves of late.

We just don't know what kind of influence Ryan had during Smith's term as general manager. He could have stamped approval on every deal the team made. He may have been ignored 90% of the time. Bringing up the fact that he was with the team and implying he held decision-making power during Smith's run is pure conjecture and it's really starting to grate on my nerves.

Ryan is the general manager. Judge him for his actions while in the bosses' chair and let's refrain from speculating on what he was doing while somebody else was in it. Most of the time, it's nothing more than a platform to bitch about the front office with little or no substantiating evidence to support the claims.


In this instance, my point is that he didn't just stumble into this situation...he wasn't completely removed...and the pitching situation has been how it's been for a couple years now (even with the fluke pitching we had in 2010). We've needed pitching for awhile now. We've known our system was weak in pitching, from top to bottom, for awhile now. It didn't JUST happen. So this whole, give him time stuff, just doesn't fly for me. Just my opinion. Our pitching is weak at the top (at MLB level and high levels) mostly cause of his poor drafting.

On top of that, when was the last time he ponied up and got us quality pitching from the FA market? We were close in 2006...needed some pitching to get us over the hump...what did he get us?

#28 birdwatcher

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

When will it NOT be premature to judge Ryan's winter moves? Um, spring, after his winter moves have been made.

Tons of Feldman's and Baker's can be defined as a dozen or so free agent pitchers who are valued more highly by the pros, and another dozen or so similarly better pitchers who are available via trade. Is that good enough for you, mike?

#29 birdwatcher

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:18 PM

If the Twins had signed Baker and Feldman, the vast majority of the comments on here would negative. Ryan would be called names, and be derided as cheap and incompetent for signing two guys who are no better than #4-5-6 starters on a losing team, and risky ones at that.

But, because Ryan did not sign them, he's being called names, and is being derided as cheap and incompetent for not signing two guys who are low-risk solutions as #3-4 starters.

Shocking.

#30 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

That's a fine definition, not one I agree with, but fine. So pretty much 25 or so pitchers either a lot better, or about the same, if I read you correctly. Many of those will get more than 1 year, 6 million dollar deals. How many will get less, and be as effective?