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Article: Twins Must Pay to Improve

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:31 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...-Pay-to-Improve

#2 jorgenswest

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:44 PM

The ship can not be righted. It sunk in 2011. They need to build a new ship.

The pitching woes are clear. They could spend significant dollars on starting pitching and still be below league average. The void is too great.

The hidden problem is the aging offense. Last year they were below league average in runs scored. Of the 8 teams that were below league average in runs scored only two were above league average in bat age. While the other 6 were younger and many significantly younger and can be projected to improve, the Twins key offensive players are projected to decline.

How do they fix both an aging offense and pitching? Signing more decline phase players only extends the problem into the future.

#3 glunn

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:20 AM

The ship can not be righted. It sunk in 2011. They need to build a new ship.

The pitching woes are clear. They could spend significant dollars on starting pitching and still be below league average. The void is too great.

The hidden problem is the aging offense. Last year they were below league average in runs scored. Of the 8 teams that were below league average in runs scored only two were above league average in bat age. While the other 6 were younger and many significantly younger and can be projected to improve, the Twins key offensive players are projected to decline.

How do they fix both an aging offense and pitching? Signing more decline phase players only extends the problem into the future.


I think that you are both correct. Spending some money would help the team be more competitive next year -- maybe they could even get to .500. But the Twins don't have enough money available make the improvements necessary to win the division. I hope that I am wrong.

#4 mako83

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:50 AM

Target some major leaguers and start signing. Show us something already. But the twins have to worry about keeping target field full fans don't

#5 beckmt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:47 AM

Twins must do something this offseason. It is probable that not all holes can be filled, but the fans must be able to see the effort. It is early, but a signing or two might help turn the negitive comments off for a while.

#6 JB_Iowa

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:17 AM

I don't think this is just a case of ownership being penurious. I honestly believe that Terry Ryan is more comfortable with a lower payroll. It prevents him from having to deal with the angst of free agent signings that don't work out. My guess is that what happened with Jason Marquis and his contract kept his gut churning .... imagine if the contract had been for $12 million instead of $4 million (or $3 million, cant remember exactly). And then imagine if it had been for more than 1 year.

My guess is that Ryan isn't going to touch his current spending ceiling let alone press for additional authority. I expect to see the Twins enter the 2013 season at about $91-$94 million.

#7 Twins Twerp

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:28 AM

What about Mauers contract? This should not count toward the budget the Pohlad's give TR. The deal was lucrative and handcuffing but it had to be done. They are making money on Mauer but I don't think his deal should be counted towards the payroll flexibility the team has. If you take out at least 15 million of that deal and put it in different category, the team should have $85 million to play with not counting that 15 mil...making the teams payroll about $100 million dollars.

The Pohlad's need to put forth at least $100 million dollar payroll or we will start calling them the Loria's (Marlin's owner) and stop filling up that beautiful stadium WE paid for.

#8 mnfanforlife

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:22 AM

Twins Twerp: I completely agree! How do they maroon Mauer after spending so much to lock him up? It seems like his salary should come off the payroll figure the FO is looking at. They need so many roster pieces right now. Pohlads should be talking about how they would raise payroll if all the free agents they went after signed with the Twins. But I dont think they are seriously going after any big time pitchers, and obviously no big name hitters.

#9 mnfanforlife

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:23 AM

Twins rotation in 2013: Diamond, Gibson, Hendriks, Deduno, random Rule 5 draftee

#10 mnfanforlife

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:25 AM

I know there will be more moves at the winter meetings (better be), but so far, this off-season is looking a lot like the last. And that produced a lot of L's

#11 twinsnorth49

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:59 AM

Cripes, how many threads on payroll do we really need!?

#12 Boom Boom

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:29 AM

Cripes, how many threads on payroll do we really need!?


Welcome to Minnesota!

#13 Cody Christie

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:34 AM

If the Twins don't want payroll to be a limitation, they are going to have to use cheap, younger players. Unfortunately, they don't have many starting pitchers that fight this mold. The team might be building for 2014 instead of 2013. That gives the team time to get Morneau's money off the books and they could trade away another player or two. Hicks and Arcia can have time to develop at Triple-A and hopefully some of the pitchers taken in last year's draft start to pan out.

#14 tellis205

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:56 AM

Like I just commented on in Nick's column, Dave St. Peter got on Syd and Dave's show on Sunday and said "I wouldn't be surprised if we make a couple deals during the winter meetings". I don't think he'd leak that unless there was a good chance of it happening. And he'd be the one guy who would know what's going on. It's not a guarantee by any stretch but it gives a little hope.

#15 jorgenswest

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:08 AM

They have at least three young pitchers that need to get the ball every 5th day.

Diamond, Gibson, Hendriks

They can trade Morneau and buy prospects buy picking up the majority of his salary.

They can trade Willingham. They can also sweeten the return by picking up some of his salary.

They can see if Doumit or Carroll have any value in younger players.

From these deals a young pitcher should emerge.

They can load up with guys like Zach Stewart in spring training in hopes of a Jared Burton find.

They do not need to sign decline phase veteran pitchers to multiyear contracts.

What happened to the Twins teams that let guys like Hunter, Gaetti, Gagne, Guzman, Bartlett, Viola, Santana, Hawkins and Radke struggle in the majors as young players? They weren't ready. They grew from their struggle.

Hicks or Arcia can be given that chance to play regularly next year. Parmelee should have had that chance last year. They can put Dozier, Plouffe, Escobar or Florimon out in the field regularly. Some will emerge as cheap valuable players.

No more old guys until they have a solid core of younger players. It will take time.

#16 Danchat

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:19 AM

I say it's time to re-build. Trade away whoever we can for prospects and prepare for a 2015 playoff run. We are so delusional, we can't make the playoffs this year by spending $20M on the AL's worst team (for 2 straight years!)
Put everyone on waivers, sell now (trade Span), sell at the deadline (Morneau), and sell any veteran if we can get a prospect. Mauer must be kept, and we'll have to build around him. Keep Willingham unless there's a good deal (the return on him is apparently low, and the fanbase would be ticked if he was traded for dirt). Trade for prospects, and hope to avoid a stupid trade. I think we should get a new GM.
I love the Vikings GM Rick Spielman-he decided to totally re-build them, and they're getting better thanks to that decision. Twins, embrace the re-building process and we can be good again!

#17 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:59 AM

Cripes, how many threads on payroll do we really need!?


I know, right? I mean, I'm tired of people forcing me to come to this site, read threads I don't agree with, and find excuses for ownership.

#18 ericchri

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:16 PM

I say it's time to re-build. Trade away whoever we can for prospects and prepare for a 2015 playoff run. We are so delusional, we can't make the playoffs this year by spending $20M on the AL's worst team (for 2 straight years!)
Put everyone on waivers, sell now (trade Span), sell at the deadline (Morneau), and sell any veteran if we can get a prospect. Mauer must be kept, and we'll have to build around him. Keep Willingham unless there's a good deal (the return on him is apparently low, and the fanbase would be ticked if he was traded for dirt). Trade for prospects, and hope to avoid a stupid trade. I think we should get a new GM.
I love the Vikings GM Rick Spielman-he decided to totally re-build them, and they're getting better thanks to that decision. Twins, embrace the re-building process and we can be good again!


Apologies in advance for excessive Vikings talk...

I'd hardly call what Rick Spielman did completely rebuilding the Vikings. Honestly, I think the Vikings of a year ago look an awful lot like what the Twins look like right now. Huge gaps in the roster with a few good veteran players and lots of underperforming youngsters. The Vikings got better by solidifying a glaring weakness (offensive line) by adding one standout, which pushed an iffy player (Charlie Johnson) to a role he was better suited to, and having a young guy take a big step forward to becoming a standout (John Sullivan). The secondary also improved due to the addition of a 1st round pick in Harrison. But I can't honestly say I saw the Vikings dumping anybody they could for draft picks or young players this past offseason. They just rode it out with what they had and a couple rookies performing well makes everything else look better. Throw on two of the best players in the game in Peterson and Harvin performing at All-Pro level, and you've got a team.

If the Twins do what the VIkings have done this year, they'd essentially probably move Willingham to full-time DH and put Arcia or Hicks into the everyday lineup in hopes he rakes at the majors as well (similar to Harrison). Then you'd get Gibson up to be a quality starter (Kalil) and probably have Hendricks take that giant step forward (Sullivan). And Mauer (Harvin) and Morneau (Peterson) play at an All-Pro level, suddenly the team doesn't look pathetic. It's all wishful thinking, though. Nobody thought the VIkings were going to be good this year, because all they added were a couple rookies and took a flyer on a receiver without much history who was also going to miss 20% of the season due to suspension. The rookies have been as good as (probably better) than expected, and that along with standout performances by the two stars makes the season look good so far, discounting the absolutely brutal schedule they have to finish the season in which it wouldn't be shocking to see them go 1-5 to finish up at 7-9 on the year. And a 7-9 football record translates roughly to a 71-91 record in baseball. For the record I'm betting on a 3-3 finish, but I won't be shocked at anything except for winning all 6.

I'm onboard with spending serious money to improve the roster, or I'm onboard with moving veterans for youngsters with 2014 or 2015 in mind. I don't think I'm onboard with spending minimally to just sort of barely plug holes only to have to do it again every year perpetually.

Edited by ericchri, 21 November 2012 - 12:23 PM.


#19 twinsnorth49

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:54 PM

Cripes, how many threads on payroll do we really need!?


I know, right? I mean, I'm tired of people forcing me to come to this site, read threads I don't agree with, and find excuses for ownership.


Are you the Chief of the Department of Redundancy?

That would be "read 15 threads about the same thing I don't agree with" to be exact.

By the way, since when is agreeing with threads a prerequisite of this site? Or is it just agreeing with you that's a prerequisite?

#20 Riverbrian

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:02 PM

I agree... Too many threads on this subject... Therefore... I choose to only participate in one and that is the thread started by Crikket.

Damn it... I just posted on this thread to explain myself... Which means I've just participated in a 2nd thread on the same subject.

It's really hard to stay with your convictions!!! I disapoint myself.


.

#21 ThePuck

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:25 PM

'Are you the Chief of the Department of Redundancy?'

That's only funny if you add 'Department' at the end.

#22 twinsnorth49

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:36 PM

'Are you the Chief of the Department of Redundancy?'

That's only funny if you add 'Department' at the end.


D'oh, thanks, thanks.

#23 mgraves

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

'Are you the Chief of the Department of Redundancy?'

That's only funny if you add 'Department' at the end.


Outstanding, Sir.

#24 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:24 PM

[quote name='twinsnorth49'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='twinsnorth49']Cripes, how many threads on payroll do we really need!?[/QUOTE]

I know, right? I mean, I'm tired of people forcing me to come to this site, read threads I don't agree with, and find excuses for ownership.[/QUOTE]

Are you the Chief of the Department of Redundancy?

That would be "read 15 threads about the same thing I don't agree with" to be exact.

By the way, since when is agreeing with threads a prerequisite of this site? Or is it just agreeing with you that's a prerequisite?[/QUOTE]

It's possible you missed the point. I'm confident it'll come to you, but just in case, here's a clue...reading or participating in threads you find redundant is optional.

Happy Thanksgiving.

#25 Rosterman

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:50 PM

Yes, we all know that the Twins needed to jump the gun and blow away he competition. Maybe. Or players like Baker and Guthrie were just smart and grabbed at an offer early (ala Nathan in 2012). You don't have to overpay if everyone else blows their wad and there are still leftovers on the table. And there probably will be.

#26 Kwak

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:35 PM

Today's leftovers, tommorrow's garbage.

#27 twinsnorth49

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:16 PM

[quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='twinsnorth49'][quote name='USAFChief'][quote name='twinsnorth49']Cripes, how many threads on payroll do we really need!?[/QUOTE]

I know, right? I mean, I'm tired of people forcing me to come to this site, read threads I don't agree with, and find excuses for ownership.[/QUOTE]


Are you the Chief of the Department of Redundancy?

That would be "read 15 threads about the same thing I don't agree with" to be exact.

By the way, since when is agreeing with threads a prerequisite of this site? Or is it just agreeing with you that's a prerequisite?[/QUOTE]

It's possible you missed the point. I'm confident it'll come to you, but just in case, here's a clue...reading or participating in threads you find redundant is optional.

Happy Thanksgiving.[/QUOTE]

Just trying to improve efficiency sir, Happy Thanksgiving to you. I'll have to accept your well wishes a little belatedly, ours was over a month ago.

#28 Danchat

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:17 PM

*as Terry Ryan sifts through a dumpster* "Don't worry guys, we'll make the playoffs!"