Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Photo

Cleveland MLB team reportedly considering name change

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
99 replies to this topic

#81 Hosken Bombo Disco

Hosken Bombo Disco

    Minnesota Twins

  • Moderator
  • 12,472 posts

Posted 06 July 2020 - 08:11 PM

The Atlanta Hammers
The New York Babies (or Sultans)
The St Louis Men
The San Francisco Kids
The Baltimore Robinsons
The Cincinnati Hustlers
The Detroit Peaches
The Seattle Juniors (or Units, or Kings)
The Washington Big Trains
The Boston Splinters (or Big Daddies)
The Minnesota Killers

Brooklyn Dodgers
New York Yankees
Boston Braves
Kansas City Cowboys
Green Bay Packers
Louisville Colonels
Duluth Kelleys

... all are early NFL football teams.

It’s intereting. I don’t know what it tells us, other than times change.
  • PseudoSABR likes this
He measured the achievements of others by what they had accomplished, asking of them that they measure him by what he envisaged or planned.
- J. L. Borges

#82 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Billy G.O.A.T

  • Moderator
  • 15,783 posts

Posted 06 July 2020 - 09:19 PM

 

So your point is we shouldn't let the Native Americans decide what they are offended by?(There should be some way to do it)

My guess is there are lots of Natives that are offended by the names (maybe some names more than other names) and there lots of Natives that will be offended by the names being changed.

I guess I don't believe my opinion matters on changing the names, unless of course the majority of Natives decided a name should be changed but isn't then I would speak up, but I don't think so highly of myself to decide which side of the Native Americans should be on.

 

We also have to take into consideration that there is a real tendency, particularly with men, to say something doesn't bother them when it actually does. Lots of people feel that acknowledging a personal feeling of slight or displeasure is a sign of weakness.

  • Craig Arko likes this

#83 ashbury

ashbury

    Twins fan for life!

  • Member
  • 25,564 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 07 July 2020 - 06:01 AM

We also have to take into consideration that there is a real tendency, particularly with men, to say something doesn't bother them when it actually does.

I know some women who might be bothered by this statement but would be too polite to say so. :)
 

  • nicksaviking, Tom Froemming and Tomj14 like this

Junk is stuff we throw away.Stuff is junk we keep.-- George Carlin


#84 Tomj14

Tomj14

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,165 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 06:32 AM

 

We also have to take into consideration that there is a real tendency, particularly with men, to say something doesn't bother them when it actually does. Lots of people feel that acknowledging a personal feeling of slight or displeasure is a sign of weakness.

So we shouldn't take what people say about their feeling as their word, and we should assume what they mean and project what we think they mean? Yup, don't see any issues with that.


#85 Doctor Gast

Doctor Gast

    Ft Myers Miracle

  • Member
  • 492 posts
  • LocationBelo Horizonte, Brazil

Posted 07 July 2020 - 08:57 AM

 

See, it's this kind of strawman argument, even meant humorously, that sets people's teeth on edge. It amounts to trivializing actual offense.
 

I was serious on both counts, I wasn`t trying to make any argument. Like I said, I know many Native Americans that are not offended by sports team Indian names but if the real Native Americans are indeed offended then the clubs should change their names. I am also honestly offended by the Twins & Twinkies name for reasons I stated. I love the players throughout the years & will continue to support the team even if they don`t change their name. I just thought it`d be nice to have their name changed, my opinion only

  • h2oface likes this

#86 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Billy G.O.A.T

  • Moderator
  • 15,783 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 09:04 AM

 

So we shouldn't take what people say about their feeling as their word, and we should assume what they mean and project what we think they mean? Yup, don't see any issues with that.

 

Or you don't have to put those historically oppressed people on the spot and just do the right thing anyway.

  • PseudoSABR and Nine of twelve like this

#87 SQUIRREL

SQUIRREL

    Rally SQUIRREL!!!!

  • Moderator
  • 26,354 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 09:26 AM

 

Though I`m a very diehard Twin fan, I`d like to see our baseball team change their name. Twins name came from Cal Griffin & "Twinkies"to me is offensive. I`d prefer the name "Lumberjacks" or "Bombers" 

 

I'm fine with the Twins. I call the Twin Cities home, even though I don't live there currently (but I will again when I retire.) But I do detest 'Twinkies.' I think that is used more by opposing fans than anyone else, kind of like us referring to the Yankees as something else that rhymes with Yankees. But no matter what we would change it to, opposing fans will find some nickname we don't like. But if they would ever change their name, I like the idea of the Lumberjacks ... we could get Thome back to do some Paul Bunyan commercials for us! ;) But Bombers? As in the Bronx Bombers? No thank you.

  • Sconnie, Nine of twelve and Doctor Gast like this
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

#88 Tomj14

Tomj14

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,165 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 09:51 AM

 

Or you don't have to put those historically oppressed people on the spot and just do the right thing anyway.

What if you are wrong and it isn't the right thing? Imagine if you were in charge of the naming of Florida State? I guess I don't think I am superior to the Native Americans so I would never feel I have the right to speak for them.

 

  • Dozier's Glorious Hair likes this

#89 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Billy G.O.A.T

  • Moderator
  • 15,783 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 09:59 AM

 

What if you are wrong and it isn't the right thing? Imagine if you were in charge of the naming of Florida State? I guess I don't think I am superior to the Native Americans so I would never feel I have the right to speak for them.

 

Native American groups have been asking for change for decades. We've known the right thing to do for years, some people are just still trying to justify not doing it.

  • Nine of twelve likes this

#90 Tomj14

Tomj14

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,165 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 10:59 AM

 

Native American groups have been asking for change for decades. We've known the right thing to do for years, some people are just still trying to justify not doing it.

Just got off the phone with my buddy (mentioned in a previous post) I asked him if they sent out a questionnaire to everybody that is 50% native or above how they would answer a question(s) is the name Redskins offensive, is the Braves name offensive, and the same for the Chiefs, Braves, Black Hawks.

He answer was 50% wouldn't respond because they don't trust the white man, 50% would say all are offensive so they could complain about the white man taking another Indian tribute away,10-20% would say the names are offensive because they thought they were, 50% would say the names that aren't their favorite team are offensive. He said he knew his math didn't add up but generally speaking that is how he believes it would come out.

So you are right, change all the names and deal with the complaining that comes along with it, if people don't know what is good for them we need tell them what is.

(He is a Chiefs fan and said he would never remove the license plate cover he has had for 30 years)


#91 h2oface

h2oface

    Lifelong since '61

  • Member
  • 4,911 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 07 July 2020 - 01:29 PM

 

.... But I do detest 'Twinkies.' I think that is used more by opposing fans than anyone else, kind of like us referring to the Yankees as something else that rhymes with Yankees. .......

 

Me too. But then there is the whole fan based Twinkie Town - a Minnesota Twins community. I don't even go there because of the name. Disgusting.

  • Tomj14 likes this

#92 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 6,648 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 06:55 PM

I should probably do what I had planned on doing and keep my fingers still and just leave the boards for a few more days. I even told someone who reached out to me that I was doing so. But it's also not my nature. So here I go, treading in the water when I should probably be quiet.

I received several responses to my post that I didn't expect. Some filled with vitriol. Let's just say it was unexpected.

I literally stated in my post at least a couple of times I wanted names of teams changed if they were offensive. I also stated more than once I was asking open questions for discussion sake.

Period. (Re-read if you wish).

When I made the statement "up until a few years ago..." my intent of context was related to DECADES of team names. For not being more obvious or clear in my comments, then I apologize. I was, again, attempting to speak in a historical context of time.

And once again, I stated repeatedly about change if names were offensive. I also stated I was asking honest questions. I have been surprised by the personal accounts of posters here which have strong ties to Native Anericans in their lives. And that was really my intent. To simply ask questions and open discussion.

Whether this discussion, the Griffith statue removal, or any other discussion thread, where have I ever stated intolerance or intent for status quo?

I only meant historical perspective in regards to time frames and to have open discussion. If anyone read something different or interpreted something different from my post, then I am sorry we didn't connect on the level that was my intention.

Other than that, I'm out of here.
  • Tomj14 likes this
"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

--Lou Brown


#93 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 23,690 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 08:11 PM

I should probably do what I had planned on doing and keep my fingers still and just leave the boards for a few more days. I even told someone who reached out to me that I was doing so. But it's also not my nature. So here I go, treading in the water when I should probably be quiet.

I received several responses to my post that I didn't expect. Some filled with vitriol. Let's just say it was unexpected.

I literally stated in my post at least a couple of times I wanted names of teams changed if they were offensive. I also stated more than once I was asking open questions for discussion sake.

Period. (Re-read if you wish).

When I made the statement "up until a few years ago..." my intent of context was related to DECADES of team names. For not being more obvious or clear in my comments, then I apologize. I was, again, attempting to speak in a historical context of time.

And once again, I stated repeatedly about change if names were offensive. I also stated I was asking honest questions. I have been surprised by the personal accounts of posters here which have strong ties to Native Anericans in their lives. And that was really my intent. To simply ask questions and open discussion.

Whether this discussion, the Griffith statue removal, or any other discussion thread, where have I ever stated intolerance or intent for status quo?

I only meant historical perspective in regards to time frames and to have open discussion. If anyone read something different or interpreted something different from my post, then I am sorry we didn't connect on the level that was my intention.

Other than that, I'm out of here.

Dude, a bunch of people responded negatively to your post.

It could have been easily resolved with “I misspoke, my apologies” if the post above was your ultimate mindset on the issue.

Personally, I think your post was wrong. I don’t hold it against you because I had to read back pages to realize it was you saying it. The content of the post was dismissive to things many of us have thought about for ages.

Literally nothing has stopped you from saying “what I said was wrong, this is what I meant to say” if that was what you wanted to convey.

No one should be embarrassed about being wrong. It happens to everyone. Maybe next time, instead of throwing up a defensive shield and threatening to leave the board, think about why so many people reacted negatively to that post.
  • PseudoSABR, DocBauer and Nine of twelve like this

#94 PseudoSABR

PseudoSABR

    Pitch-to-contact poster

  • Twins News Team
  • 5,666 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 08:20 PM

Twinkies doesn't bother me; I consider it good-natured ribbing (even if it's not always). After all it's one of the few pejoratives not based in something awful...


#95 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 6,648 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 09:15 PM

Dude, a bunch of people responded negatively to your post.
It could have been easily resolved with “I misspoke, my apologies” if the post above was your ultimate mindset on the issue.
Personally, I think your post was wrong. I don’t hold it against you because I had to read back pages to realize it was you saying it. The content of the post was dismissive to things many of us have thought about for ages.
Literally nothing has stopped you from saying “what I said was wrong, this is what I meant to say” if that was what you wanted to convey.
No one should be embarrassed about being wrong. It happens to everyone. Maybe next time, instead of throwing up a defensive shield and threatening to leave the board, think about why so many people reacted negatively to that post.


I thank you for your response Brock...even though I said I was out of here after my response. LOL

I have always respected you as an owner of TD, and I have always respected you for your Twins and baseball perspectives, even if we didn't always agree. (Though most times we have). And my respect for you only grew in other sensitive articles when you spoke about your family and their experiences. I tip my cap to you sir for being an intillegent and good man! You are amongst many that I truly hope I can meet one day at Twins Fest or other gathering.

You are correct that my second post was more in keeping with my intent and my beliefs. In good conscious, I can't just say "I was wrong" with my first post simply, as I stated, I was simply TRYING to open up dialogue and asking questions I don't have the answers to. To me, asking honest questions is never wrong for those of us who want to know, and embrace knowledge and change.

I HONESTLY offer apologies if my first post was simply done poorly! Again, I attempted to be more clear in my second post. I was just attempting to add and open dialogue for this important subject. And in no way was I attempting to be dismisivve of the topic or sensitivities regarding such.

I ABHORE any sort of discrimation! It's not me, how I was raised, what I believe in, or what God and my Savior Jesus Christ believes in. (Yes, I'm a Christian). And I am a humble man. And while my intent was pure, it sure seems my intent was done poorly, though I swear I thought I was being clear. It sure appears my intent...at least the first try...was badly done. And again, if someone took offense or didn't understand my intent, man, I really, really apologize.
  • Brock Beauchamp, Craig Arko and Nine of twelve like this
"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

--Lou Brown


#96 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 23,690 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 09:45 PM

 

I thank you for your response Brock...even though I said I was out of here after my response. LOL

I have always respected you as an owner of TD, and I have always respected you for your Twins and baseball perspectives, even if we didn't always agree. (Though most times we have). And my respect for you only grew in other sensitive articles when you spoke about your family and their experiences. I tip my cap to you sir for being an intillegent and good man! You are amongst many that I truly hope I can meet one day at Twins Fest or other gathering.

You are correct that my second post was more in keeping with my intent and my beliefs. In good conscious, I can't just say "I was wrong" with my first post simply, as I stated, I was simply TRYING to open up dialogue and asking questions I don't have the answers to. To me, asking honest questions is never wrong for those of us who want to know, and embrace knowledge and change.

I HONESTLY offer apologies if my first post was simply done poorly! Again, I attempted to be more clear in my second post. I was just attempting to add and open dialogue for this important subject. And in no way was I attempting to be dismisivve of the topic or sensitivities regarding such.

I ABHORE any sort of discrimation! It's not me, how I was raised, what I believe in, or what God and my Savior Jesus Christ believes in. (Yes, I'm a Christian). And I am a humble man. And while my intent was pure, it sure seems my intent was done poorly, though I swear I thought I was being clear. It sure appears my intent...at least the first try...was badly done. And again, if someone took offense or didn't understand my intent, man, I really, really apologize.

I appreciate your response. I'm sure others do, too.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here but why are you defending the Washington football team?

 

I only ask that you step back, take a deep breath, and legitimately ask why you wrote a post defending that name.

 

Again, so not judging you, just asking you to consider what caused that reaction.

 

You seem like a good guy and nothing about this conversation has changed that opinion, I'm only asking why you thought that opinion was important to state.

 

Say what you will, I want to hear it and I'm not going to put you on blast for it.

  • DocBauer and Nine of twelve like this

#97 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 6,648 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 10:44 PM

I appreciate your response. I'm sure others do, too.
I'm not trying to pick a fight here but why are you defending the Washington football team?
 
I only ask that you step back, take a deep breath, and legitimately ask why you wrote a post defending that name.
 
Again, so not judging you, just asking you to consider what caused that reaction.
 
You seem like a good guy and nothing about this conversation has changed that opinion, I'm only asking why you thought that opinion was important to state.
 
Say what you will, I want to hear it and I'm not going to put you on blast for it.


Let me be perfectly clear that I am 100% for changing the Washington mascot name! I did a very poor job of stating my thoughts in my original thread! I only meant that to fans of the NFL, or football fans in general,who grew up with that name for decades and didn't see the the negativity associated with it, they saw the name as benign. It just was it was for DECADES. Just...accepted. No harm, no foul, it was just accepted. But especially in the last decade or so, we knew in the conscious mind what the subconscious knew all along. Its wrong and needs to change.

Dan Snyder may end up reaping benefits from a name chance and new labels and whatnot. Fine! But what is right will be made right.

I am simply not smart enough as to who should change what and what is offensive. But I DO KNOW that Redskins just NEEDS to change! I've believed that for years now.
"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

--Lou Brown


#98 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 23,690 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 11:00 PM

 

Let me be perfectly clear that I am 100% for changing the Washington mascot name! I did a very poor job of stating my thoughts in my original thread! I only meant that to fans of the NFL, or football fans in general,who grew up with that name for decades and didn't see the the negativity associated with it, they saw the name as benign. It just was it was for DECADES. Just...accepted. No harm, no foul, it was just accepted. But especially in the last decade or so, we knew in the conscious mind what the subconscious knew all along. Its wrong and needs to change.

I'm going to say what I said originally:

Good god, man. Many people have had MASSIVE issues with that name for literally decades.

I first realized that name was a problem when a friend told me she hated that name... in 2001. She's a member of the Lakota nation... But I met her in California.


#99 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    G.O.A.T.

  • Moderator
  • 15,101 posts
  • Locationthe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 08 July 2020 - 06:44 AM

 

I'm going to say what I said originally:

Good god, man. Many people have had MASSIVE issues with that name for literally decades.

I first realized that name was a problem when a friend told me she hated that name... in 2001. She's a member of the Lakota nation... But I met her in California.

I don't think the issue is Washington's name... the bigger issue is other names. I don't think Psuedo's argument quite stands with team names like the Vikings for instance... I definitely struggle a lot more with the Chiefs and Braves, but I would think the marking value alone would pay for the costs... so I guess I don't know squat.

 

The Indians I can see b/c of that wahoo ridiculous caricature. They've been distancing themselves from it... good, but it's still all over the place. 

  • Brock Beauchamp and Sconnie like this

#100 SQUIRREL

SQUIRREL

    Rally SQUIRREL!!!!

  • Moderator
  • 26,354 posts

Posted 08 July 2020 - 01:10 PM

This thread is now off the track of discussing Cleveland's name change. This isn't a football website. Nor is it a political website. Brock and Doc ... I encourage to keep your dialog going via PM's.

 

Thread closed. Thank you.

  • ashbury, diehardtwinsfan and nicksaviking like this
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”