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On New MLB Proposal, How it Relates to the Twins and a Potential Solution

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#21 rdehring

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 12:32 PM

 

Manfred is talking big, but his eyes are bigger than his stomach. If this comes down to Manfred unilaterally imposing a deal, the game blows up. I wish he would stop saying this. I would think each teams leaders would "encourage" their respective 40 man teammates to stay home. Then what? 
I don't want to watch a shortened season with everyone's A ball players - which would lead to nothing but trouble for next year and the year after. Sad, but no season this year is better than no season for the next 2 years. This needs to get hammered out between the 2 parties. Manfred is not trusted by the players.

You could be right.Just stating what Manfred says will happen, don't know if it is a bluff or if he will follow through.As for players showing up, expect there are lots of guys wondering how they are going to pay next months credit card bill, especially guys like Arraez and the crew from Venezuela living in Florida.Expect we will see in the next week or so.Personally, would love to get back watching baseball, even if it is mostly young players with some prospects sprinkled in.

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#22 Trov

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 12:56 PM

 

Here's what I've been saying from the get go... Keep the first $500k completely whole (like it was a 162 game season). Fully prorated for $500k-$3M. Then 50% prorated above that.

Assuming an 81 game season (for easy math)...

Garver who was due to make $620k, would get all of the first $500k, then a prorated amount (half in this example) for the remaining $120k - So he would make $560k

Berrios who was due to make $4M would get all of the first $500k, fully prorated for the next $2.5M, then a 50% prorated share for the final $1M
$500k + $1.25M + $0.25M
So he makes $2M, which actually happens to be the same full prorated amount (happy accident by me)

Where the owners really start saving money is for the $10M+ guys.

Jake Odorizzi - $17.8
$500k + (2.5M/2) + ($14.8/4) = ~$5.5M

I don't know how this idea compares to the ideas being thrown around by the owner or players, but it seems overall more owner friendly financially, while still remaining player friendly for those making less that $4M annually.

If that went to a vote from the full union, you'd have to think it would pass.

Sounds very similar to the sliding scale the players had a fit about.The higher paid players take the biggest cuts.So many of us seem to have a willingness to meet in the middle that sounds reasonable.However, neither side has been willing to budge.  


#23 In My La-Z-boy

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 01:01 PM

 

You could be right.Just stating what Manfred says will happen, don't know if it is a bluff or if he will follow through.As for players showing up, expect there are lots of guys wondering how they are going to pay next months credit card bill, especially guys like Arraez and the crew from Venezuela living in Florida.Expect we will see in the next week or so.Personally, would love to get back watching baseball, even if it is mostly young players with some prospects sprinkled in.

I too miss baseball. Neither side seems willing to take it in the shorts for the fans. It is a shame they both can't agree the game itself is bigger than this years dollars, and get back on the field for the sake of the game. 


#24 Trov

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 01:47 PM

Recent reports owners may finally be budging some on their price.Not sure the exact math of it, but recent reports are they will propose a 70 to 75 game season at around 80 to 85 percent prorate.This moves them off their previous stance of about a third of player pay, just different ways to offer it.Not sure how much more, of course it depends if it is 75 games at 85% or 70 games at 80%.  

 

For basic math if a player gets paid 100K per game, at full prorate, then difference between 70 and 75 games is 500K for that player.So if the proposal is 80% on 70 games that would mean that player would make 5.6 mil instead of 7 mil.At 85% it would be 5.95 mil.At 75 games full prorate would be 7.5 mil.80% would be 6 mil, and at 85% it would be 6.375 mil.So the gap of reported proposal for a player in a full 162 season who is getting paid about 16 mil a year, would be between 5.6 mil and 6.375.A big chunk of money, and even bigger for larger deals.The difference for same player on full prorated on top end of deal is 7.5 mil to 6.375.Just over a million dollars, again a large chunk of money.

 

If the proposal is true and is the 75 games at 85% it is a significant step away from where they were, but still far away from what the players are seeking.I bet the true proposal will be closer to the 70 games at 80%, in hopes the players will counter and take a step off their line, and settle near the 75 at 85%.They could expect the players to fully say no and not budge, but again try to look like they are trying to the fans and the players are the unreasonable ones. 

 

While both sides are trying to gain support of the fans, what both sides seem to not realize, no one cares who seems to be trying to get a season started, we just want a season and really do not care who is in the right.This is not one where we will boycott the games because the owners are bad people, if we did it would hurt the players.We will not petition the owners to pay the players more because the players are in the right.This not where we have other options to get our baseball elsewhere.Both sides need to get their heads out of a particular area and get it done.  


#25 rdehring

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 02:04 PM

 

Recent reports owners may finally be budging some on their price.Not sure the exact math of it, but recent reports are they will propose a 70 to 75 game season at around 80 to 85 percent prorate.This moves them off their previous stance of about a third of player pay, just different ways to offer it.Not sure how much more, of course it depends if it is 75 games at 85% or 70 games at 80%.  

 

For basic math if a player gets paid 100K per game, at full prorate, then difference between 70 and 75 games is 500K for that player.So if the proposal is 80% on 70 games that would mean that player would make 5.6 mil instead of 7 mil.At 85% it would be 5.95 mil.At 75 games full prorate would be 7.5 mil.80% would be 6 mil, and at 85% it would be 6.375 mil.So the gap of reported proposal for a player in a full 162 season who is getting paid about 16 mil a year, would be between 5.6 mil and 6.375.A big chunk of money, and even bigger for larger deals.The difference for same player on full prorated on top end of deal is 7.5 mil to 6.375.Just over a million dollars, again a large chunk of money.

 

If the proposal is true and is the 75 games at 85% it is a significant step away from where they were, but still far away from what the players are seeking.I bet the true proposal will be closer to the 70 games at 80%, in hopes the players will counter and take a step off their line, and settle near the 75 at 85%.They could expect the players to fully say no and not budge, but again try to look like they are trying to the fans and the players are the unreasonable ones. 

 

While both sides are trying to gain support of the fans, what both sides seem to not realize, no one cares who seems to be trying to get a season started, we just want a season and really do not care who is in the right.This is not one where we will boycott the games because the owners are bad people, if we did it would hurt the players.We will not petition the owners to pay the players more because the players are in the right.This not where we have other options to get our baseball elsewhere.Both sides need to get their heads out of a particular area and get it done.  

So far the players haven't budged, not once.Will be interesting to see if the union has a number that they have been trying to get the owners to.If not, if they truly want 100% of their per game and the owners get as close as you suggest, then they shouldn't be surprised if the owners say no and there is no baseball.

 

And if the owners really offer 80-85% of a 75+ game season and the players still say no, I don't know about most fans but this fan will put the blame for no baseball clearly on the players.  

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#26 Tom Froemming

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 02:15 PM

This is similar to the last offer, in that the amount being reported is basically if the players max out. That number of more than 80% of the prorated salaries only happens *if* there's a postseason. The amount they're guaranteed on a per-game basis is somewhere even below that 80%, which isn't likely anything the players would consider in the first place.

 

We're going to end up with around a 50-game season. That's how this has been trending for months, the MLB really hasn't advanced anything or made any real changes to their multiple offers over the past couple months. Every single one equates to the players ending up earning somewhere around 30% of their original salaries.

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#27 Vanimal46

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 03:04 PM

5 offers with the same end result for the players. Making between 33-36% of the salaries they would make in a normal year. Just presented in different ways. The owners really don’t want to have a season and it shows. I concur with Tom, all we’re going to get is a mandated 48-50 game schedule. What a shame.
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#28 yarnivek1972

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 03:06 PM

The owners’ proposal isn’t likely to get bigger in terms of percentage of original contracts. Every day that passes is one fewer game that can be played. From the day an agreement is reached, it will be at least a full month before regular season games are played. One week to report. 3 days of workouts. 18 days of ST2 games. Today is June 12. So, the earliest regular games would start is July 15 if a deal is reached by Monday. That only leaves 77 days until the end of September. That is going to be the end of regular season games. Any later as far as MLB is concerned (based on what I have read) is non-negotiable. Especially if the playoffs get expanded to 16 or 22 teams. So, 75 games would require basically no off days and/or doubleheaders. And again, every day an agreement isn’t reached is a day closer to October 1.

My opinion hasn’t changed. I think the owners declare an impasse and attempt to implement the 50 game fully prorated schedule they say the players agreed to in March if there is no agreement by June 20. One week from tomorrow. The players will tell the owners where to go and there will be a strike.

Frankly, I think the impasse is less about this season and more of a power play going into the CBA renegotiation. There are now basically two types of players. The superstars making 8 figures per year and guys making 6 figures. Players in the middle are becoming an endangered species. The ones who are at that mid level are the arbitration level players. The “better than average veteran” class are being squeezed out of the league by minimum salary players.

This has been brewing for awhile IMO.
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#29 howeda7

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 03:48 PM

 

If they hold all the playoff games in one stadium it will take even longer.

One per league then.


#30 howeda7

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 03:50 PM

 

The “one off” is likely to extend to 2021. I don’t see fans being allowed at most stadiums until a vaccine is ready. That is not likely before April 2021. It’s not even probable by October 2021. I could MAYBE see states allowing 50% capacity next year.

Agreed. It will probably be 2022 before there is normalcy. But I expect the NFL/College football to have some fans in the stands this fall. I'd be surprised if MLB doesn't have at least 50% capacity by opening day next year. That's still a revenue hit, but they will know or have an idea about it going into the off-season and can adjust their payroll accordingly.

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#31 howeda7

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 03:56 PM

 

Players will not accept that.They have drawn a line at full prorate.So 87.5% will not get it done.The players have made no counter to a reduce in pay.The owners have countered with several different ways to pay about 33% of full season pay.Except for full revenue split, which was also a non-starter for players. 

Players need to give too. 87.5% for 80 games is still 40% more than 100% for 50 games.


#32 howeda7

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 03:58 PM

 

Maybe you should counsel the players.I think if the players came out and countered with exactly that, and the owners balked at it, then the owners would look terrible.Right now, I think the players look terrible.They want full pay for play, which make sense, but they are not willing to accept fact that this is not a normal situation.Neither side has moved an inch for weeks, the owners have just dressed up the pay in different packages but the overall pay has been the same.However, players have not budged either, making claims they want to give the fans more games, but really they just want more money.If they were willing to do the over 100 games at a less than prorate, then their claim of giving fans more games hold water.  

Neither side is blameless. And every day that goes by burns another day that they could have had more of the public's attention than they've had in years. It's ridiculous. Once the NBA starts up in late July, they lose their window.

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#33 howeda7

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 04:01 PM

 

Here's what I've been saying from the get go... Keep the first $500k completely whole (like it was a 162 game season). Fully prorated for $500k-$3M. Then 50% prorated above that.

Assuming an 81 game season (for easy math)...

Garver who was due to make $620k, would get all of the first $500k, then a prorated amount (half in this example) for the remaining $120k - So he would make $560k

Berrios who was due to make $4M would get all of the first $500k, fully prorated for the next $2.5M, then a 50% prorated share for the final $1M
$500k + $1.25M + $0.25M
So he makes $2M, which actually happens to be the same full prorated amount (happy accident by me)

Where the owners really start saving money is for the $10M+ guys.

Jake Odorizzi - $17.8
$500k + (2.5M/2) + ($14.8/4) = ~$5.5M

I don't know how this idea compares to the ideas being thrown around by the owner or players, but it seems overall more owner friendly financially, while still remaining player friendly for those making less that $4M annually.

If that went to a vote from the full union, you'd have to think it would pass.

It might pass, but if a handful of guys like Mike Trout and Gerrit Cole decide not to play, are you better off overall?


#34 yarnivek1972

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 05:38 PM

Players need to give too. 87.5% for 80 games is still 40% more than 100% for 50 games.


80 games isn’t realistic.
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#35 Diesel

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 06:03 PM

I am going to go out on a limb and say that the Pohlads aren’t one of the owners wanting to cheapen salaries to players by this much. This is shown by their large donation in honor of George Floyd and their willingness to have a higher payroll this year, along with being one of the leaders in paying minor leaguers. Since the Twins had nearly a decade of mediocrity, I’m guessing the team is trying to bring in as many new fans as possible. I am hoping for a season soon.
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#36 yarnivek1972

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 06:06 PM

Agreed. It will probably be 2022 before there is normalcy. But I expect the NFL/College football to have some fans in the stands this fall. I'd be surprised if MLB doesn't have at least 50% capacity by opening day next year. That's still a revenue hit, but they will know or have an idea about it going into the off-season and can adjust their payroll accordingly.


Some, maybe. In some states. I don’t envision crowds of more than 10,000 allowed in Minnesota until a vaccine is readily available. That might not even be by fall 2021.
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#37 yarnivek1972

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Posted 13 June 2020 - 02:11 PM

The owners’ proposal isn’t likely to get bigger in terms of percentage of original contracts. Every day that passes is one fewer game that can be played. From the day an agreement is reached, it will be at least a full month before regular season games are played. One week to report. 3 days of workouts. 18 days of ST2 games. Today is June 12. So, the earliest regular games would start is July 15 if a deal is reached by Monday. That only leaves 77 days until the end of September. That is going to be the end of regular season games. Any later as far as MLB is concerned (based on what I have read) is non-negotiable. Especially if the playoffs get expanded to 16 or 22 teams. So, 75 games would require basically no off days and/or doubleheaders. And again, every day an agreement isn’t reached is a day closer to October 1.

My opinion hasn’t changed. I think the owners declare an impasse and attempt to implement the 50 game fully prorated schedule they say the players agreed to in March if there is no agreement by June 20. One week from tomorrow. The players will tell the owners where to go and there will be a strike.

Frankly, I think the impasse is less about this season and more of a power play going into the CBA renegotiation. There are now basically two types of players. The superstars making 8 figures per year and guys making 6 figures. Players in the middle are becoming an endangered species. The ones who are at that mid level are the arbitration level players. The “better than average veteran” class are being squeezed out of the league by minimum salary players.

This has been brewing for awhile IMO.


I’m going to amend this and say the 50 game season will be played but that the players will strike before the playoffs. Everyone knows that the players make bank during the season and teams make bank on the playoffs.

#38 Doctor Gast

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Posted 13 June 2020 - 03:44 PM

Thank you Tom for at least making an attempt to achieve a solution & it should be considered.

The players against the owners & owners against the players, fans takes sides. There is so much division in this world. Democrats against Republicans, Republicans against Democrats; Blacks, Whites, Hispanics & Asians against each other; Religions & sects are against each other.

Peopleare protesting about the George Floyd murder & rightly so. Everyone should have the freedom to be able to go out to protest peaceably even in this covid 19 chaos.I also believe that everyone who`s healthy that wants to work, open his small business or go to a baseball game should have that same right if they want to take that risk . And if we are granted our freedom there would be no fight between owners & players. we could even be watching games by now. 

It`s not too late! Owners, players & fans need to come together & urge our gov. to set us free to be able to choose to go to baseball games ( MLB or minor) or not, of course under proper precautions.

We must 

Support love & resist hate

Support unity & resist division

Support Freedom & resist unnecessary restraint

Not only for ourselves but for our community  

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#39 USAFChief

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Posted 14 June 2020 - 01:48 AM

This is similar to the last offer, in that the amount being reported is basically if the players max out. That number of more than 80% of the prorated salaries only happens *if* there's a postseason. The amount they're guaranteed on a per-game basis is somewhere even below that 80%, which isn't likely anything the players would consider in the first place.

We're going to end up with around a 50-game season. That's how this has been trending for months, the MLB really hasn't advanced anything or made any real changes to their multiple offers over the past couple months. Every single one equates to the players ending up earning somewhere around 30% of their original salaries.

what has the MLBPA offered?

Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

This is 100 percent the fault of the players. One. Hundred. Percent.

Screw them.

Start the season without them. They'll come crawling back soon enough.
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#40 rdehring

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Posted 14 June 2020 - 07:08 AM

 

Thank you Tom for at least making an attempt to achieve a solution & it should be considered.

The players against the owners & owners against the players, fans takes sides. There is so much division in this world. Democrats against Republicans, Republicans against Democrats; Blacks, Whites, Hispanics & Asians against each other; Religions & sects are against each other.

Peopleare protesting about the George Floyd murder & rightly so. Everyone should have the freedom to be able to go out to protest peaceably even in this covid 19 chaos.I also believe that everyone who`s healthy that wants to work, open his small business or go to a baseball game should have that same right if they want to take that risk . And if we are granted our freedom there would be no fight between owners & players. we could even be watching games by now. 

It`s not too late! Owners, players & fans need to come together & urge our gov. to set us free to be able to choose to go to baseball games ( MLB or minor) or not, of course under proper precautions.

We must 

Support love & resist hate

Support unity & resist division

Support Freedom & resist unnecessary restraint

Not only for ourselves but for our community  

Have you read the articles in the Strib by Reusse about Town Ball. Has been doing a series with the general thought being they are saying to heck with the restrictions and playing ball. I believe there were several hundred games this weekend around the State. Some are scrambling for places if their ballpark is city owned and the City says no. One went to their city council who said, "play ball." Great series by Patrick.

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