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Article: Character vs. Production

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:53 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...r-vs-Production

#2 Top Gun

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:26 AM

Yunel is not that good that you have to put up with his crap.

#3 Chris in Osaka

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:32 AM

Character and lockerroom issues are overrated. If he can hit, then he should be pursued.

#4 h2oface

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:13 AM

yikes.

#5 JB_Iowa

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:00 AM

I don't know if Escobar is the right fit but I do think that the Twins seem a bit too homogenized. It's nice to have people around you that you get along with (and with whom the manager gets along) but sometimes it is the people who rub you the wrong way who push you to be your best.

The whole approach of ditching (or avoiding) players with attitude seems lazy to me.

(Not to mention that most of the players on this team lull (or should I say, "dull") me into a bored stupor).

#6 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:11 AM

Escobar likely can't provide either so I don't see why he'd be worth it.

#7 Riverbrian

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:30 AM

There are a lot of people on this site who like to build these fancy statistical models. There is nothing wrong with that... More Power to ya... I do the same things in my spare time for my own amusement but you gotta realize that once you get past Ryan Braun, Mike Trout, Stanton, Pujols, Cabrera and the uber special ball players, you end up with slight degrees of seperation in talent with the rest of the bunch that over the course of 162 games is so tiny that it hardly matters. Any player can produce and have a week in the sun and any player can go cold for a stretch.

The Difference between the .280 hitter and the .230 hitter is 5 hits over 100 at bats. If you consider this fact... Ladies and Gentlemen... Character ends up being the true difference that matters.

Yunel Escobar doesn't hit a large amount of home runs... He doesn't drive in gobs of runners and he doesn't steal a ton of bases... and he has worn out his welcome with two major league teams. Are you all trying to convince me or others that those extra 5 hits every 30 games is going to turn us into an offensive force... This guy with the bad attitude is going to solve our SS problem.

I have no problem with attitude... We could use some guys who get under the skin of his teammates because they stare them in the eye and say let's play some ball. Is that Escobar? or is he the attitude guy who goes through the motions and doesn't want to work on things if he doesn't feel like it. He's been run out of two clubhouses and I don't know why but I assume it's not because he's pushing his teammates to be the best that they can be.

Edited by Riverbrian, 15 November 2012 - 09:32 AM.


#8 gunnarthor

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:38 AM

Yunel had a pretty bad drop off last year so there is the danger that maybe he's declining or older than appears to be. But, depending on what we have to give up, I'd be ok with taking a flier on him. I'm not too concerned about his attitude. We won with Hudson and Rauch, both were bad club house guys and Cabrera came to us with a reputation for being a bit of a hothead and fit in perfectly.

#9 Siehbiscuit

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:38 AM

There are a lot of people on this site who like to build these fancy statistical models. There is nothing wrong with that... More Power to ya... I do the same things in my spare time for my own amusement but you gotta realize that once you get past Ryan Braun, Mike Trout, Stanton, Pujols, Cabrera and the uber special ball players, you end up with slight degrees of seperation in talent with the rest of the bunch that over the course of 162 games is so tiny that it hardly matters. Any player can produce and have a week in the sun and any player can go cold for a stretch.

The Difference between the .280 hitter and the .230 hitter is 5 hits over 100 at bats. If you consider this fact... Ladies and Gentlemen... Character ends up being the true difference that matters.

Yunel Escobar doesn't hit a large amount of home runs... He doesn't drive in gobs of runners and he doesn't steal a ton of bases... and he has worn out his welcome with two major league teams. Are you all trying to convince me or others that those extra 5 hits every 30 games is going to turn us into an offensive force... This guy with the bad attitude is going to solve our SS problem.

I have no problem with attitude... We could use some guys who get under the skin of his teammates because they stare them in the eye and say let's play some ball. Is that Escobar? or is he the attitude guy who goes through the motions and doesn't want to work on things if he doesn't feel like it. He's been run out of two clubhouses and I don't know why but I assume it's not because he's pushing his teammates to be the best that they can be.


You have gotta use better punctuation! It is very difficult to understand if you are making a statement(.) or asking a quesition(?).

#10 Riverbrian

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

I think all my statements are questionable and I don't know if there is punctuation for that.

Also... What is this punctuation that you speak of?

#11 AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:00 AM

And people were arguing with me about whether to go after Stephen Drew and his bad attitude.....I would way rather have Stephen Drew then this giant piece of crap named Escobar.

#12 TK10

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

These guys have to live together for 220 days a year. Attitude matters and someone who's a terrible human being will kill your team. Also, acquiring an avowed homophobe, in a market that just rejected adding homophobia to its state constitution, would really help the Twins acquire and keep the vital 20something demographic.

#13 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:31 AM

I think five hits every 30 games IS significant. That's 25 more hits at the end of the season. Add two more players with a BA .050 higher and it's 15 hits every 30 games.

Small differences add up over 162 games. That's the very nature of baseball.

#14 jm3319

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:13 PM

I'd take a team of 25 A-holes that wins games over a team full of the 25 nicest guys on the planet that loses 90 games a season.

#15 Nick Nelson

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:23 PM

Riverbrian: I think you're drastically understating the impact that Escobar (producing at career levels) can have compared to Pedro Florimon and Co. You need to look past batting average and understand that over the course of a full season he's going to get on base a lot more, provide more pop and generally just be more of an asset in the lineup. He's also an accomplished defender whereas it's difficult to trust the glovework of anyone the Twins currently have.
The notion that all non-star players are essentially interchangeable is strange to me. The way you beat other teams and win divisions is by having superior talent, even if only incrementally better. You can't overlook any opportunity to improve in any area.

As far as Escobar's homophobia thing goes, I'm as bothered by it as anyone, but it was - to my knowledge - an isolated incident and we can't dismiss the possibility that he learned a lesson from the whole ordeal. It's worth noting that Delmon Young was known as a major problem child when the Twins acquired him and he had very few off-the-field issues during his time here. His performance was a much bigger issue than his attitude.

#16 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

Are there any additional "attitude" incidents beyond the one linked? I can't find any. If there aren't any other incidents, how does this one translate into being a bad clubhouse guy or demonstrate a pattern to be wary of? Sign him up.
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#17 Boom Boom

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:28 PM

The Difference between the .280 hitter and the .230 hitter is 5 hits over 100 at bats. If you consider this fact... Ladies and Gentlemen... Character ends up being the true difference that matters.


5 hits over 100 at bats is a pretty big difference. It sounds like less when you phrase it that way, but with an extra .050 of batting average Drew Butera would have hit .248 in 2012, making him a decent every day catcher.

#18 TK10

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

I, like most, have made "youthful" mistakes. But I guess I'm skeptical that something like homophobia or racism can ever be an accident or mistake, youthful or otherwise. Having too much to drink and yakking on your buddy's couch is a youthful mistake. Failing an 8 a.m. class because you're too lazy to get out of bed is a youthful mistake.

#19 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:38 PM

It's frightening that so many posters don't know what an actual phobia is anymore.
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#20 rico7961

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:39 PM

Why wouldn't you take a chance on Escobar. At 5M a year for 2013 with Club options for 2014 and 2015 its a chance to take. TR likes not being obligated more than 1 year and Escobar ia a major league ss (something we haven't had since Hardy). If you don't have to give up too much to get him it definitely improves our team for next year without breaking the bank. He can bat 2,6,7,8 in the lineup and has had some pretty good season's both offensively and defensively.

#21 Willihammer

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:04 PM

The fact that he is coming off a down year and has a bad reputation would seem to make him a great buy low candidate. Its worth a phone call at least.

#22 Nick Nelson

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:18 PM

[quote name='TK10']Also, acquiring an avowed homophobe, in a market that just rejected adding homophobia to its state constitution, would really help the Twins acquire and keep the vital 20something demographic.[/QUOTE]
He's not quite an "avowed homophone." Escobar claims that the message wasn't intended to be offensive and that he has no problem with gays. Whether you choose to believe him is up to you.

Regardless of his true feelings on the matter, he's entitled to his opinion and as long as he doesn't project it or turn it into an issue again I don't see why it should have any bearing on the Twins' desire to acquire him to play baseball.

[quote name='rico7961']Why wouldn't you take a chance on Escobar. At 5M a year for 2013 with Club options for 2014 and 2015 its a chance to take.[/QUOTE]
Escobar's contract, to me, is one of the most appealing things about him. If he turns things around and proves to be a good citizen, you've got the option to bring him back at the same very reasonable price. If not, you cut ties and move on.

[quote name='Ultima Ratio']Are there any additional "attitude" incidents beyond the one linked? I can't find any. If there aren't any other incidents, how does this one translate into being a bad clubhouse guy or demonstrate a pattern to be wary of? Sign him up. [/QUOTE]
I don't know if there have been any publicized incidents but my understanding is that attitude/clubhouse issues contributed to Atlanta getting rid of him.

#23 Riverbrian

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:31 PM

Hey... I'm no different than anybody else. If given the choice I'll take the 5 extra hits... Who wouldn't?

Where we differ is pretty simple. I'm pretty consistent in my belief that attitude question marks are a bad idea and 5 extra hits will not be enough if this guy truly has a bad attitude. No matter what TR does this off season... It's safe to assume that the Twins will not be confused with the Rangers on opening day. It doesn't mean that the Twins can't win. But the task gets harder if you bring in guys who get moody... Frustrated easy and don't battle thru things and I think the Twins will have to battle thru some things.

I love stats... I'm going over them all the time.... But baseball teams can't be built by stats alone. There is a human element and Escobar has been run off of two teams. I don't know why... But he has despite... providing that extra hit a week.

I don't believe that players are individuals who effect no one like they are some computer animated thing. I believe the team is a team and each individual effects the rest. That's why baseball is a team game despite having more individual match ups than any major team sport.

As for the value of those 5 hits. Lets use Escobar for an example... .290 in 2011 and .253 in 2012... Without getting into advanced metrics... What happened? BAPIP? Was it luck? Did he face tougher pitching... It's the same player and similiar amount of data. Was it a routine dip? Or the start of a downtrend. Was it the fact that the Blue Jays were playing .500 ball in 2011 and 8 games below .500 in 2012?

I don't have the answer but the fact that almost every individual player in baseball will swing those 5 hits from year to year tells me don't wring your hands over it.

One last thing. This is my opinion but I'm consistent... The Twins could bring in Tulo and you'd be pouring it straight down the toilet because the pitching is that bad. If you have 5 million to spend on a SS... You'd be better off applying that 5 million to a pitcher to address the main problem directly. Tulo isn't going to overcome an ERA in the 5's...

I realize that any new pitching acquisitions could go belly up and suck but at least you are trying to fix what is preventing the team from competing.

And to tie a nice bow on it... If the new pitching acquired does not get the job done and the pitching still sucks in 2013... You better have a SS and a team full of players that is still willing to fight and still believes it can win regardless. Escobar has been run off two teams... Drew off of one... Neither of them are Tulo and neither can overcome our current pitching.

#24 Riverbrian

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:32 PM

The Difference between the .280 hitter and the .230 hitter is 5 hits over 100 at bats. If you consider this fact... Ladies and Gentlemen... Character ends up being the true difference that matters.


5 hits over 100 at bats is a pretty big difference. It sounds like less when you phrase it that way, but with an extra .050 of batting average Drew Butera would have hit .248 in 2012, making him a decent every day catcher.


Or with 5 hits less... Drew would have hit .148... It goes both ways.

#25 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:45 PM

I did find reports of other eye black incidents, which show his immaturity -- not an irrational fear of homosexuals. Apparently he's written "WTF" and "No Penis" in his eye black in the past, which clearly shows an open bigotry toward women and the epicene (no penis) and quizzical happenings (WTF). I'm sure there's a phobia in there somewhere.


<<<Sarcasm>>>

http://outsports.com...-his-eye-black/

#26 Spawn of Mientkiewicz

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:47 PM

Agree with Rico and hammer, if we could get him for one or two C or C+ prospects (guys likely not in the top 20 MN prospects), then taking a chance for the $5M he's owed in 2013 makes a lot of sense. If he turns out to disappoint on or off the field, it is a one year experiment. If he's better than expected, the club options give you multi year possibilities....makes too much sense.....

#27 TK10

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:56 PM

He is an avowed homophobe. We have to own our actions. He claimed he doesn't have anything against gays because the Blue Jays and his agent put a metaphorical gun to his head. Additionally, if he actually, with a straight face, says his actions weren't intended to be offensive, than he's an idiot. Is he entitled to his opinion and free speech and all that good stuff? Yes, he is. But when you spew the kind of nonsense he did, then you deserve to driven out of town on a rail.

#28 twinslover

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:04 PM

I personally don't care if he suffers from homophobia, hetero-phobia, agoraphobia, or arachnophobia. I think bringing him in has to be considered and if they can get him for a non-descript prospect there is very little risk.

#29 TK10

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:12 PM

Hey yeah, if you can get a cross burner for the right price, might as well do it.

#30 Road Grays

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:59 PM

Go ahead, sign him. Then I can have a proven idiot to direct all of my frustration at next summer. Kind of like when Luke Scott or Nyjer Morgan are in town, but Escobar will be there everyday! Whee!