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Reds SS Zack Cozart for... Ben Revere?

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#21 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:19 PM

What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.


Cozart cannot draw walks and that's a very important part of a batter. Didi is 22 and not an old guy like Dozier. His glove REALLY worries me though. Revere for Gregorius as a trade foundation to work from could really be beneficial for the Twins. This is a very good and creative way to get a potential good short on the cheap that the Twins should definitely look into! Although, I'm not sold on either of the shortstops so good scouting is completely necessary and I wouldn't mind if the Twins didn't finish a deal.

Edited by YourHouseIsMyHouse, 09 November 2012 - 05:23 PM.


#22 beckmt

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

Would do it if it is Revere, need defensive SS who might hit a bit. Would not preclude trading Span for pitching. Like the idea, Twins need to do something. Could start Hicks or Benson in CF if Span is traded for pitching.
I also have been lobbing for Stephen Drew. Would be a better option, but depend on price.

#23 Kobs

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:08 PM

Didn't the Twins just trade for a no hit shortstop a few months ago?

#24 Willihammer

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:55 PM

Gregorius bats lefthanded, that's one thing going for him.

But the more I think about it, the less I like trading any of our outfielders for SS's of this caliber. We have Carroll for 1-2 years still. Dozier had such a horrible year year at the MLB and MilB level, it looks suspiciously like it was a one-off. Parmelee's year looks suspiciously like a one-off. Worst thing would be to trade one of our 3-4 win outfielders, bring in a marginal upgrade at SS, and then find out that Dozier is tearing it up at AAA while Parmelee is stinking it up getting everyday at bats with the Twins.

#25 Riverbrian

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

A trade like this with the Reds doesn't make sense to me. Zach Cozart is the starting SS with the Reds. Didi isn't anything yet but is the only SS depth they have. Hamilton has been working towards a CF gig.

Why would the Reds move a SS? That seems foolish to me.

Personally I'd rather see Denard or Ben traded for Pitching and I don't have much interest in questionable infielders... We have questionable infielders already.

We don't have a ton of trade chips. I sure hope we focus on pitching with the trade chips we have.

Our SS situation is not good... Our Starting pitching is ten miles below our SS situation.

#26 rgslone

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:58 PM

A trade like this with the Reds doesn't make sense to me. Zach Cozart is the starting SS with the Reds. Didi isn't anything yet but is the only SS depth they have. Hamilton has been working towards a CF gig.

Why would the Reds move a SS? That seems foolish to me.

Personally I'd rather see Denard or Ben traded for Pitching and I don't have much interest in questionable infielders... We have questionable infielders already.

We don't have a ton of trade chips. I sure hope we focus on pitching with the trade chips we have.

Our SS situation is not good... Our Starting pitching is ten miles below our SS situation.


You have a good perspective on the Reds SS dilemma. Given the Twins CF depth I think a Span/Revere for Cozart/Gregorious deal would be to the Twins benefit. Cozart has speed, power, and was in line for the Gold Glove this season. He's a solid SS that many MLB teams would like to have starting for them. Gregorious has speed (although not a great base stealer at this point), great defense and arm, and projects to be a good contact hitter and is starting to show power that most scouts have always said is there - plus he's 22 yrs. old and hits left-handed. The problem with a deal from the Reds standpoint, however, is they may not be comfortable yet deciding which player will be their SS of the future. They likely feel that Gregorious needs another year (or at least half a season) at AAA, and they have no option other than Cozart for 2013.

Edited by rgslone, 11 November 2012 - 07:00 PM.


#27 johnnydakota

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.


geez by signing izturis you could have had as good and not traded anyone

#28 johnnydakota

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:40 PM

Didn't the Twins just trade for a no hit shortstop a few months ago?

and also picked one up on waivers from baltimore

#29 TopGunn#22

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:50 PM

I agree with Riverbrain. If you're going to deal Span/Revere/Willingham/Morneau etc...the Twins simply must get pitching back in return. As Gibson and J.O. Berrios or Liam Hendricks develop along with the other arms we would acquire in a trade the Twins could find themselves able to trade pitching to fill other holes in 3 years or so. The Twins should be able to compete next year. The fan base will demand it. If we stink it up next year again, Gardy and Andy will be gone. The idea of Stephen Drew for the "right price" is interesting. Bonnes or Seth should define what the "right price" is.

#30 glunn

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:25 AM

I agree with Riverbrain. If you're going to deal Span/Revere/Willingham/Morneau etc...the Twins simply must get pitching back in return. As Gibson and J.O. Berrios or Liam Hendricks develop along with the other arms we would acquire in a trade the Twins could find themselves able to trade pitching to fill other holes in 3 years or so. The Twins should be able to compete next year. The fan base will demand it. If we stink it up next year again, Gardy and Andy will be gone. The idea of Stephen Drew for the "right price" is interesting. Bonnes or Seth should define what the "right price" is.


I agree. The biggest need by far is pitching. Any trades should focus on that.

#31 DaveW

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:35 AM

I agree with Riverbrain. If you're going to deal Span/Revere/Willingham/Morneau etc...the Twins simply must get pitching back in return. As Gibson and J.O. Berrios or Liam Hendricks develop along with the other arms we would acquire in a trade the Twins could find themselves able to trade pitching to fill other holes in 3 years or so. The Twins should be able to compete next year. The fan base will demand it. If we stink it up next year again, Gardy and Andy will be gone. The idea of Stephen Drew for the "right price" is interesting. Bonnes or Seth should define what the "right price" is.


I agree. The biggest need by far is pitching. Any trades should focus on that.


That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"

#32 old nurse

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:02 AM

[

That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"


If you do not have enough B- pitching prospect available to fill your needs then you have to trade for what is scarcer. You can always pick up another MI, for younger prospects. You might not always find a pitching rich team.

#33 edavis0308

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:39 AM

[

That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"


If you do not have enough B- pitching prospect available to fill your needs then you have to trade for what is scarcer. You can always pick up another MI, for younger prospects. You might not always find a pitching rich team.



That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.

#34 Mike Sixel

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:54 AM

And if you never draft pitchers, how does that work out, given that you need 12 at a time?

They have one starting pitcher on their roster right now. One. When they deal, they need to get pitching, assuming they do jot sign three free agents that can start.

#35 old nurse

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:04 PM

[

That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.


Like after the first few players are drafted there is a discernible difference between grouped players.

It would take greater value to get a b+ pitcher than a b+ MI. The shortstop signed by Toronto was signed for as much money as Marquis got last year. The greater efficiency is had by drafting well. When you have not, you have to be creative.

I really do not think Span would be traded for a C+ pitcher. Cole DeVries has made himself a C+ pitcher. The prospects mentioned for Span rated much higher.

#36 DaveW

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:57 PM

[

That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.


Like after the first few players are drafted there is a discernible difference between grouped players.

It would take greater value to get a b+ pitcher than a b+ MI. The shortstop signed by Toronto was signed for as much money as Marquis got last year. The greater efficiency is had by drafting well. When you have not, you have to be creative.

I really do not think Span would be traded for a C+ pitcher. Cole DeVries has made himself a C+ pitcher. The prospects mentioned for Span rated much higher.


DeVries is not a C+ pitcher, at best DeVries is replacement level.

#37 mnfanforlife

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:12 PM

The Red's rotation is pretty deep and they continue to flirt with moving Aroldis Chapman back to the rotation. Would a Span for CHapman swap be a good option for both?


It would be an awesome option for the Twins, but the Reds wouldnt do it straight up. Chapman is too good. Prob take some top twins prospects and Span to get anywhere near a deal fro Aroldis

#38 old nurse

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

[quote name='SpiritofVodkaDave'][quote name='old nurse'][quote name='edavis0308'][

That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.[/QUOTE]

Like after the first few players are drafted there is a discernible difference between grouped players.

It would take greater value to get a b+ pitcher than a b+ MI. The shortstop signed by Toronto was signed for as much money as Marquis got last year. The greater efficiency is had by drafting well. When you have not, you have to be creative.

I really do not think Span would be traded for a C+ pitcher. Cole DeVries has made himself a C+ pitcher. The prospects mentioned for Span rated much higher.[/QUOTE]

DeVries is not a C+ pitcher, at best DeVries is replacement level.[/QUOTE ]
Sickles definition of a C prospect is one with a question mark or three. At the higher levels that would fit DeVries. 7 of his 16 starts qualified as quality starts.

#39 nicksaviking

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:09 PM

[quote name='edavis0308'][quote name='old nurse'][quote name='SpiritofVodkaDave'][

That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"[/QUOTE]

If you do not have enough B- pitching prospect available to fill your needs then you have to trade for what is scarcer. You can always pick up another MI, for younger prospects. You might not always find a pitching rich team.[/QUOTE]


That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.[/QUOTE]

Except the Twins GM has proven time and time again that he is afraid to sign free agent pitchers to multi-year deals. Therefore, the only way to get a controlable pitcher is to trade for one. Ryan is not afraid to sign offensive free agent vets.

Besides, it's not like the teams we are talking about are talent rich in offense, the Braves, Reds, Rays and Mariners have much better pitching options to deal than they do on offense. Anyone who thinks there is more value in future utility player Didi Gregarius than in Tony Cingrani, Daniel Corcino or Robert Stephenson is crazy. Trade for cheap young promising pitching and then you can afford to overpay a little to make sure you get your veteran middle infielder. Otherwise your trading for an a uninspriring guy like Gregorius and end up paying top dollar for short term uninspiring starters.

I'd rather rather have a Cingrani or Mike Minor and pay Stephen Drew or Jeff Keppinger on the open market, then end up with Gregorius or Tyler Pastronicky and have to settle for Joe Saunders or Joe Blanton.

Edited by nicksaviking, 12 November 2012 - 03:14 PM.


#40 edavis0308

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:59 PM

All I am saying is it isnt a good way to run a team to draft and trade for players of lesser talent because they fill a more pressing need.