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Reds SS Zack Cozart for... Ben Revere?

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#1 scottz

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:19 PM

http://www.mlbtrader...-gregorius.html

I like Cozart - don't know much about Gregorius. And I'm not sure I love the idea of losing Span as a trading chip and not getting back a pitcher. However, I think most agree that the middle infield could use some help. Would a trade centered on Span for SS be acceptable to you?

If nothing else, I think it is a good thing to have buzz centered around Span to as many teams as possible. If the Braves/Mariners/whomever think that Span is being discussed with the Reds/other teams, then theoretically, those teams might have to offer more than they would otherwise.

Discuss!

#2 Winston Smith

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:42 PM

Didi and Cingrani for Span and a low prospect could work. Young starter and SS would really help.

May all our prospects be All Stars and the beer be free.


#3 John Bonnes

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:49 PM

Jon Paul Morosi reports that Cincinnati Red GM Walt Jocketty is open to trading away one of his shortstops - Zack Cozart or Didi Gregorious - for a closer or center field/lead off hitter. The Twins are specifically mentioned by Morosi as one of the options for a trade.

Cozart is a guy I wrote up in the Handbook. He's interesting, not spectacular. He's 27 and has some power - he hit 15 HR with the Reds and has a career slugging percentage of .421 in the minors. (His AAA numbers: .275/.327/.432 with 158K and 63 BB in 960 AB.) He's right handed, though I don't know if he's a pull hitter. Best of all, he graded out very well defensively (+9 UZR/150).

IN the Handbook, I suggested trading Span for Cozart, and I don't think that's a terrible idea. But a better idea might be to float Revere. He's young, he's cheap, he's good defensively, he's a lead off guy that steals bases. (Think of him and Hamilton at the top of that lineup in a few years.) That would probably mean hanging onto Span for this offseason, but he could be moved at the deadline when Hicks is hopefully ready to be called up. Plus, the Twins have their shortstop for the next few years.

#4 Top Gun

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:50 PM

Span for Asdrubal then sign Josh Hamilton, to hell with pitching.

#5 John Bonnes

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:51 PM

Darn, second duplicate thread I've started today. They're combined now....

#6 gunnarthor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

I think you're over rating Cozart. He had a .632 OPS away from the Reds bandbox stadium. His power won't translate to TF. He's defense is solid but it's not worth giving up a better defender in CF. I still think Span to the Reds for Didi + pitcher makes sense. But Span (or Revere) straight up for Cozart is a bad trade for us.

#7 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

I wish we could trade for Billy Hamilton :)

#8 Seth Stohs

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:55 PM

Cozart does nothing for me. Gregorius is intriguing. I wouldn't deal Span for either of them. I would deal Revere for Gregorius.

And yes, anything that could bring Tony Cingrani would be good with me!

#9 John Bonnes

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:03 PM

What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.

#10 nicksaviking

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:04 PM

I'd rather chase after Cingrani, Corcino or Stephenson. Neither SS looks to be able to get on base enough to be a centerpiece of a deal. If the Twins can talk the Reds into one of the starters AND one of the SS that would be great in my book, but my money is on that asking price being the sticking point last July when the trade fell through for Span. I said during the season I hope the Reds get bounced from the playoffs in the first round and get even more desperate for a CF/leadoff hitter. Maybe they're more willing to overpay now.

#11 gunnarthor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:10 PM

What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.


Didi made the majors at 22, Dozier was in rookie ball. Dozier hasn't shown the ability to get on base above AA. Scouts like Didi, he won't be a star but he'll stick at short and his bat should be better than Cozart's.

#12 gunnarthor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

I'd rather chase after Cingrani, Corcino or Stephenson. Neither SS looks to be able to get on base enough to be a centerpiece of a deal. If the Twins can talk the Reds into one of the starters AND one of the SS that would be great in my book, but my money is on that asking price being the sticking point last July when the trade fell through for Span. I said during the season I hope the Reds get bounced from the playoffs in the first round and get even more desperate for a CF/leadoff hitter. Maybe they're more willing to overpay now.


Agree 100%.

#13 iastfan112

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:16 PM

I'm intrigued by Cozart, thought he looked pretty good in the few Red's games I watched last year. I'd want something in addition to him if we're giving up Span or Revere but he'd be a solid starting point.

#14 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:37 PM

Cozart is interesting, as we would be buying low on him at this point. What happened to his speed? He had 30 SB in 2010 then totally dropped off.

His defense is sound, is under team control til 2018 and if he could manage to put up a .720 OPS he would be the best long term SS the Twins have had in quite a while. He has some solid pop.

I would definitely think hard about trading Revere for him straight up, since Revere's long term prospects are more of a 4th OF then an every day player. If it were me I'd make the swap in a heart beat.

#15 Boom Boom

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:42 PM

Shortstop? We've got a three-headed Dozier/Florimon/Field monster there. No space for Cozart.

#16 ThePuck

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

Didi made the majors at 22, Dozier was in rookie ball. Dozier hasn't shown the ability to get on base above AA. Scouts like Didi, he won't be a star but he'll stick at short and his bat should be better than Cozart's.


Didi was drafted out of high school, Dozier went to college. Dozier spent less time in the minors before getting called up. Didi also didn't show the ability to get on base past AA

#17 Siehbiscuit

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

The Red's rotation is pretty deep and they continue to flirt with moving Aroldis Chapman back to the rotation. Would a Span for CHapman swap be a good option for both?

#18 AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:45 PM

Am I the only one who is interested in Stephen Drew? He will be cheap, and if he comes anywhere near his playing days in Arizona its a fricken steal. Why not take a chance.

#19 gunnarthor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:57 PM


Didi made the majors at 22, Dozier was in rookie ball. Dozier hasn't shown the ability to get on base above AA. Scouts like Didi, he won't be a star but he'll stick at short and his bat should be better than Cozart's.


Didi was drafted out of high school, Dozier went to college. Dozier spent less time in the minors before getting called up. Didi also didn't show the ability to get on base past AA


Didi was signed as an international free agent from the Netherlands. Arguing that Dozier spent less time in the minors is, at best, a canard. Dozier spent 4 years playing in college then spent the next 3+ years in the minors before making the majors at 25. While neither has dominated the upper levels of the minors, Didi has managed to beat Dozier to those levels by three years. Also, unlike Dozier, he is good defensively. No one should suggest that Dozier is a better option.

#20 ThePuck

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

[quote name='gunnarthor'][quote name='ThePuck'][quote name='gunnarthor']
Didi made the majors at 22, Dozier was in rookie ball. Dozier hasn't shown the ability to get on base above AA. Scouts like Didi, he won't be a star but he'll stick at short and his bat should be better than Cozart's.[/QUOTE]

Didi was drafted out of high school, Dozier went to college. Dozier spent less time in the minors before getting called up. Didi also didn't show the ability to get on base past AA[/QUOTE]

Didi was signed as an international free agent from the Netherlands. Arguing that Dozier spent less time in the minors is, at best, a canard. Dozier spent 4 years playing in college then spent the next 3+ years in the minors before making the majors at 25. While neither has dominated the upper levels of the minors, Didi has managed to beat Dozier to those levels by three years. Also, unlike Dozier, he is good defensively. No one should suggest that Dozier is a better option.[/QUOTE]

You mentioned their age for when they reached the majors as to why one was better than the other...and my point was, they were drafted/signed at different ages so JUST looking at age for when they made the majors makes no sense since one was drafted/signed at 18 and one was drafted after 4 years in college. Of course Dozier was in rookie ball at 22. When he was drafted, he was 22. His first year in the minors, he was 22. Heck, only 3 years in the minors for a position player to make the majors is grease lightning for the Twins...

Edited by ThePuck, 09 November 2012 - 04:38 PM.


#21 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:19 PM

What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.


Cozart cannot draw walks and that's a very important part of a batter. Didi is 22 and not an old guy like Dozier. His glove REALLY worries me though. Revere for Gregorius as a trade foundation to work from could really be beneficial for the Twins. This is a very good and creative way to get a potential good short on the cheap that the Twins should definitely look into! Although, I'm not sold on either of the shortstops so good scouting is completely necessary and I wouldn't mind if the Twins didn't finish a deal.

Edited by YourHouseIsMyHouse, 09 November 2012 - 05:23 PM.


#22 beckmt

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

Would do it if it is Revere, need defensive SS who might hit a bit. Would not preclude trading Span for pitching. Like the idea, Twins need to do something. Could start Hicks or Benson in CF if Span is traded for pitching.
I also have been lobbing for Stephen Drew. Would be a better option, but depend on price.

#23 Kobs

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:08 PM

Didn't the Twins just trade for a no hit shortstop a few months ago?

#24 Willihammer

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:55 PM

Gregorius bats lefthanded, that's one thing going for him.

But the more I think about it, the less I like trading any of our outfielders for SS's of this caliber. We have Carroll for 1-2 years still. Dozier had such a horrible year year at the MLB and MilB level, it looks suspiciously like it was a one-off. Parmelee's year looks suspiciously like a one-off. Worst thing would be to trade one of our 3-4 win outfielders, bring in a marginal upgrade at SS, and then find out that Dozier is tearing it up at AAA while Parmelee is stinking it up getting everyday at bats with the Twins.

#25 Riverbrian

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

A trade like this with the Reds doesn't make sense to me. Zach Cozart is the starting SS with the Reds. Didi isn't anything yet but is the only SS depth they have. Hamilton has been working towards a CF gig.

Why would the Reds move a SS? That seems foolish to me.

Personally I'd rather see Denard or Ben traded for Pitching and I don't have much interest in questionable infielders... We have questionable infielders already.

We don't have a ton of trade chips. I sure hope we focus on pitching with the trade chips we have.

Our SS situation is not good... Our Starting pitching is ten miles below our SS situation.

#26 rgslone

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:58 PM

A trade like this with the Reds doesn't make sense to me. Zach Cozart is the starting SS with the Reds. Didi isn't anything yet but is the only SS depth they have. Hamilton has been working towards a CF gig.

Why would the Reds move a SS? That seems foolish to me.

Personally I'd rather see Denard or Ben traded for Pitching and I don't have much interest in questionable infielders... We have questionable infielders already.

We don't have a ton of trade chips. I sure hope we focus on pitching with the trade chips we have.

Our SS situation is not good... Our Starting pitching is ten miles below our SS situation.


You have a good perspective on the Reds SS dilemma. Given the Twins CF depth I think a Span/Revere for Cozart/Gregorious deal would be to the Twins benefit. Cozart has speed, power, and was in line for the Gold Glove this season. He's a solid SS that many MLB teams would like to have starting for them. Gregorious has speed (although not a great base stealer at this point), great defense and arm, and projects to be a good contact hitter and is starting to show power that most scouts have always said is there - plus he's 22 yrs. old and hits left-handed. The problem with a deal from the Reds standpoint, however, is they may not be comfortable yet deciding which player will be their SS of the future. They likely feel that Gregorious needs another year (or at least half a season) at AAA, and they have no option other than Cozart for 2013.

Edited by rgslone, 11 November 2012 - 07:00 PM.


#27 johnnydakota

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.


geez by signing izturis you could have had as good and not traded anyone

#28 johnnydakota

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:40 PM

Didn't the Twins just trade for a no hit shortstop a few months ago?

and also picked one up on waivers from baltimore

#29 TopGunn#22

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:50 PM

I agree with Riverbrain. If you're going to deal Span/Revere/Willingham/Morneau etc...the Twins simply must get pitching back in return. As Gibson and J.O. Berrios or Liam Hendricks develop along with the other arms we would acquire in a trade the Twins could find themselves able to trade pitching to fill other holes in 3 years or so. The Twins should be able to compete next year. The fan base will demand it. If we stink it up next year again, Gardy and Andy will be gone. The idea of Stephen Drew for the "right price" is interesting. Bonnes or Seth should define what the "right price" is.

#30 glunn

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:25 AM

I agree with Riverbrain. If you're going to deal Span/Revere/Willingham/Morneau etc...the Twins simply must get pitching back in return. As Gibson and J.O. Berrios or Liam Hendricks develop along with the other arms we would acquire in a trade the Twins could find themselves able to trade pitching to fill other holes in 3 years or so. The Twins should be able to compete next year. The fan base will demand it. If we stink it up next year again, Gardy and Andy will be gone. The idea of Stephen Drew for the "right price" is interesting. Bonnes or Seth should define what the "right price" is.


I agree. The biggest need by far is pitching. Any trades should focus on that.