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Article: Let it Sano, Let it Sano, Let it Sano!

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#31 Monkeypaws

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:49 PM

Consider this - according to BA, Sano was the 6th youngest guy in the Midwest league: http://www.baseballa...-season-league/

Hard to say he's being held back.

#32 glunn

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:33 AM

For what its worth I saw Sano in June for a couple games, and if I remember right it was before he had hit any of his big slumps. Anyway, he didn't look at all like a guy that would've been able to handle any sort of advanced pitching at that point. He was very Pedro Cerrano-esque, straight ball hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I don't think he even made contact with and breaking pitch, and took several for strikes.

I think his numbers were probably more a product of a guy who can absolutely punish mistakes, which are plentiful in Low-A. That said he seemed to have decent approach in that he knew he could wait to try and get in a good count and then hit straight ball. However, that approach will not play so well at higher levels.

Not to be entirely negative, I still think he has tons of potential and love that he's in our system and am very excited about him. But from my view, he didn't really look like a guy that should be on an highly accelerated timeline, especially with the lack of defensive value.


I love this post.

#33 mlhouse

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:39 AM

I have been arguing this point for two years now. THe Twins approach to their minor league system is too conservative. A few years ago, when the team was at least a contender for the playoffs it was probably the best approach. But now, as a rebuilding team, it isn't.

Aaron Hicks NEEDS to be the starting OF for the Twins next year. No partial season in AAA. Major league. Same with Gibson in the rotation. Sano and Rosario need to be looked at too during the course of the season. I think the Twins need to keep Joe Benson as a backup OF and see if he can do anything. If the management cannot tell if they are keepers and can be developed they are not doing their jobs and need to be fired. This is our reality going forward.

So, why the hell not? After consecutive 95+ loss seasons they have nothing really to lose. To not do this means that they simply cannot or will not develop young players at the major league level. Listen, this worked in 1982. After a couple of rough years, it paid off. Hrbek(21 years old), Gaetti (22 years old), Puckett(23 years old), Viola(22 years old), Bush, Gagne, and Launder were all players "rushed" from the minors.

Puckett played a short season rookie year, a full season of A+, 21 games at AAA and then to the majors. Viola started in AA, pitched 8 games in AAA the next year before he was called up to the majors. Hrbek played a short rookie year, A-, and A+ when he was called up to the majors. Gaetti short rookie, full A, almost a full year in AA and then late season call up. But, they got to the majors really young, worked out their problems at the major league level, LOST lots of games and but in the end, it all turned out alright.

#34 mlhouse

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:45 AM

I left off Brunansky too, mainly because he was a minor league product of the Angels system. His career path was a 17 year old Rookie ball player, A+ as an 18 year old, AA as a 19 with a late season 9 game stint in AAA. AAA as a 20 year old with call up to major leagues. Traded to Minnesota as a 21 year old, 25 games in AAA and 127 games as a major leaguer.

Or Tim Tuefel. He was a college 2nd round draft pick and started his short season in AA. At age of 22 full AA season, followed by a split AA/AAA year. As 24 year old he did AAA and was late call up to the Twins.

Think about what their career projections would be following the Twins standard?

#35 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:10 AM

I think you need to look at the years of control and his contribution during those years. If he's not going to help the club that much, why start his eligibility?


This is a huge factor for me too. I don't like the Twins being cheap, but if you bring Sano up for a couple years and he is brutal, you waste two years of his service time and two years of his development.

I would feel a lot differently if Sano was 21, played third well and the Twins were a borderline playoff team.


This isn't about being cheap, it's about being smart. 95 loss teams are not being wise in promoting their top prospects well before they are ready so that they can burn service time struggling in ML. It's going to be a tough jump as it is, and bringing them on before the skillset is there is a good way to destroy a kid's confidence or burn valuable service time. Even the Yankees understand that concept. If you bring Sano up too soon, you have two possible results: 1) He struggles and never reaches that potential (example: Delmon Young, Carlos Gomez). 2) He gets good right when he gets expensive. The Twins are in a position where the second option isn't always a bad thing, but regardless, it's poor management from a long term organizational standpoint, and it's risky from a player development standpoint.

Likewise, I fail to see how the Twins are being conservative. Sano is very young for his league. He didn't exactly dominate either, which makes me think they put him in the proper zone of proximal development, or whatever you want to call it. His defense is clearly lagging and other than power, his offense wasn't exactly top tier either. I'm not saying he's a bad prospect, but he was challenged quite well based on where his skills are now. Putting him in Fort Myers or New Brittian for 2012 makes that challenge even tougher. People who say push push push seem to forget that the skill level between the minor league levels is much more difficult. Not much is going to be accomplished when you put a guy who needs to hone his contact tools against people who are much better at avoiding contact, and we can find story after story about guys who got pushed too fast and never made it. It isn't about being conservative or liberal with your prospects. It's about being smart. Sano has shown nothing to indicate that the Twins are being too conservative with him.

#36 mnfanforlife

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:58 AM

I left off Brunansky too, mainly because he was a minor league product of the Angels system. His career path was a 17 year old Rookie ball player, A+ as an 18 year old, AA as a 19 with a late season 9 game stint in AAA. AAA as a 20 year old with call up to major leagues. Traded to Minnesota as a 21 year old, 25 games in AAA and 127 games as a major leaguer.

Or Tim Tuefel. He was a college 2nd round draft pick and started his short season in AA. At age of 22 full AA season, followed by a split AA/AAA year. As 24 year old he did AAA and was late call up to the Twins.

Think about what their career projections would be following the Twins standard?



I absolutely agree that the Twins have been too conservative lately with their top prospects. As I stated in the comments above, i would have loved to see Sano/Rosario skip ELZ altogether and have a shot to play AA by 20/21 yrs old. But its looking like a full season at A+ next summer for both. Also stated earlier was that if top prospects are pushed to AA or AAA they will get a whole lot better faster than if they light up Rookie ball twice, then spend an entire summer at low-A, then another at A+, and so on....But we wont know if Sano/Rosario would have been capable of that advanced schedule, because they were coddled as teenagers, in my opinion.

#37 mnfanforlife

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:22 AM

If you promote prospects up to the upper minors, you increase the chance of them stalling out in AA. Sano is doing very well but he also has many things to work on. He's unrefined. He still strikes out a ton and plays raw defense


I agree he is not yet ready for big-time production at AA or AAA or MLB. But I would have liked to see him struggle at an advanced level rather than spend his first 3 years kicking the crap out of leagues where he is probably the best overall player (in the league). Who knows, he may have hit .238 in A+ last year with 21 HR's and 80 RBI....I would push those offensive numbers up to AA in 2013 regardless of strikeouts and inconsistent defense (which is said to be improving fast (could it have improved faster if he were pushed to higher levels earlier?)). We just will never know with Sano, since he wasn't given the opportunity​ to struggle (yet).

#38 mnfanforlife

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:37 AM

[quote name='diehardtwinsfan'][quote name='Brad Swanson'][quote name='peterukavina']I think you need to look at the years of control and his contribution during those years. If he's not going to help the club that much, why start his eligibility?[/QUOTE]

This is a huge factor for me too. I don't like the Twins being cheap, but if you bring Sano up for a couple years and he is brutal, you waste two years of his service time and two years of his development.

I would feel a lot differently if Sano was 21, played third well and the Twins were a borderline playoff team.[/QUOTE]

This isn't about being cheap, it's about being smart. 95 loss teams are not being wise in promoting their top prospects well before they are ready so that they can burn service time struggling in ML. It's going to be a tough jump as it is, and bringing them on before the skillset is there is a good way to destroy a kid's confidence or burn valuable service time. Even the Yankees understand that concept. If you bring Sano up too soon, you have two possible results: 1) He struggles and never reaches that potential (example: Delmon Young, Carlos Gomez). 2) He gets good right when he gets expensive. The Twins are in a position where the second option isn't always a bad thing, but regardless, it's poor management from a long term organizational standpoint, and it's risky from a player development standpoint.

Likewise, I fail to see how the Twins are being conservative. Sano is very young for his league. He didn't exactly dominate either, which makes me think they put him in the proper zone of proximal development, or whatever you want to call it. His defense is clearly lagging and other than power, his offense wasn't exactly top tier either. I'm not saying he's a bad prospect, but he was challenged quite well based on where his skills are now. Putting him in Fort Myers or New Brittian for 2012 makes that challenge even tougher. People who say push push push seem to forget that the skill level between the minor league levels is much more difficult. Not much is going to be accomplished when you put a guy who needs to hone his contact tools against people who are much better at avoiding contact, and we can find story after story about guys who got pushed too fast and never made it. It isn't about being conservative or liberal with your prospects. It's about being smart. Sano has shown nothing to indicate that the Twins are being too conservative with him.[/QUOTE]


I completely agree that Sano is not ready for MLB playing time now or was last year in 2012. Not even close. But I would have loved to see him get a shot at moving from Beloit to Ft. Myers to end last season, at the very minimum. His batting average was not dominant, but his total offensive production was. He won the HR & RBI crowns with ease, even though he was 19 playing in a 22-yr-olds league. And like I mentioned earlier, who's to say that Sano could not have handled Beloit in 2011 rather than a second year of short-season Rookie ball. Its all conjecture, but we could have had a more polished/valuable product sooner if he were challenged even more than he already has been.

#39 markominne

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:58 AM

I have been arguing this point for two years now. THe Twins approach to their minor league system is too conservative. A few years ago, when the team was at least a contender for the playoffs it was probably the best approach. But now, as a rebuilding team, it isn't.

Aaron Hicks NEEDS to be the starting OF for the Twins next year. No partial season in AAA. Major league. Same with Gibson in the rotation. Sano and Rosario need to be looked at too during the course of the season. I think the Twins need to keep Joe Benson as a backup OF and see if he can do anything. If the management cannot tell if they are keepers and can be developed they are not doing their jobs and need to be fired. This is our reality going forward.

So, why the hell not? After consecutive 95+ loss seasons they have nothing really to lose. To not do this means that they simply cannot or will not develop young players at the major league level. Listen, this worked in 1982. After a couple of rough years, it paid off. Hrbek(21 years old), Gaetti (22 years old), Puckett(23 years old), Viola(22 years old), Bush, Gagne, and Launder were all players "rushed" from the minors.

Puckett played a short season rookie year, a full season of A+, 21 games at AAA and then to the majors. Viola started in AA, pitched 8 games in AAA the next year before he was called up to the majors. Hrbek played a short rookie year, A-, and A+ when he was called up to the majors. Gaetti short rookie, full A, almost a full year in AA and then late season call up. But, they got to the majors really young, worked out their problems at the major league level, LOST lots of games and but in the end, it all turned out alright.


For those of us pushing for moving prospects into the major leagues faster, I will point out that the 1982 Twins lost 102 games. Plus, when they are losing with these guys, I already can hear the complaining about the "cheap Pohlads" for playing minimum-salary player who should be in the minor leagues. One other thought: While the '82 team was the foundation of tehe '87 world champions, let's not glamorize the 1987 Twins, or lose sight of the fact that they were a severely flawed team with only 2 effective starting pitchers. They caught lightening in a bottle by being in the right division (they won the division with 85 wins), and getting hot at the right time. They took a chance with that core group, and got lucky in '87.

I agree that players who are ready can and should move through the minors quickly. But that is clearly not the case with Sano; 90 errors in the 3 years would make him a 20-year-old DH who struggles to hit breaking pitches.Similarly, someone suggested putting Joe Benson on the 25-man in 2013 "to see what he can do": In 2012 he was demoted early for terrible production, then was injured for most of the remainder of the season. If you recall, he and Parmalee were recalled in 2011, and while Parmalee excelled, Benson looked like a guy snatched out of AA-ball without the tools to play in the major leagues.

Personally, I'll side with Ryan and see if he can pull together a competitive club in 2013 by adding pitching, and give most of these guys at least another year in the minors. Sano is NOT Bryce Harper, and rushing him, Rosaria, Arcia, Benson, et al, onto the major leagues is going to hurt the team in the near term, with no evidence it would help them longer-term.

#40 Physics Guy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:59 AM

I have so many things swimming in my head regarding all of the comments; many well thought out arguments. I was actually arguing with a colleague about Sano yesterday.

I don't see the Twins accelerating his promotion for two reasons:
1) I agree that he probably needs to work on pitch recognition/hitting breaking pitches as evidenced from his K levels.
2) Primarily because the Twins are holding out that he can play 3B. He clearly is not ready to play 3B anywhere near the level needed in the majors.

Harper flew through the minors because the decision was made to not keep him at a tougher defensive position. Remember he was originally a catcher. Boras wanted his path to the majors as short as possible.

The Twins, in my opinion, are doing the right thing. Sano is much more valuable at 3B than he is at 1B, RF or especially DH. It's the same reason you keep Mauer at catcher as long as possible. As a 1B, Mauer's comparable is something akin to Mark Grace. As a C he's a future HOF. Keeping Sano at 3B will require extra time in the minors, but I think they need to decide this year if he indeed can stay at 3B.

#41 Larsbars08

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:02 AM

I'm pretty sure a ton of Sano's strikeouts came during his awful month plus long slump. When he finally recovered in the last third of the season he struck out a lot less. I'm hoping he can develop more consistency throughout the season, everyone has slumps, but month long slumps are brutal and as Sano develops, I have confidence he will limit his strike outs. He's never going to be Joe Mauer, but I don't think he's Adam Dunn yet. All the scouts I've heard who have seen him, Kevin Goldstein, Keith Law, etc. were all surprised that his approach at the plate was surprisingly patient. They said he occasionally still swung at outside pitches, but he had vastly improved from the last time they had seen him. I'm really interested to see how he plays next year because the Florida State League is where hitters really start to face good breaking balls from usually more developed pitchers. I could easily see Sano starting out slow before figuring it out. I think next season will be where we really see what we've got with Sano.
He's still 19, he may never be a good 3rd basemen but he has plenty of time to learn the position before we have to really worry about moving him to the outfield.

#42 righty8383

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:04 AM

I went to Appleton, WI for a couple games last year in June. Obviously Sano was my main point of focus. The 1st thing I noticed was that he was seeing about 70% breaking balls(no joke). The problem was, he wasn't giving pitchers a reason to throw him anything else. He had a couple AB's where he looked foolish hacking away a pitches in the dirt. His defense looked fine when I was there. He did miss a hot shot that short hopped him and it was ruled a hit.

The 2nd game I saw was pretty good for him. He hit a solid line drive single in his 1st AB. Struck out his 2nd AB. His 3rd AB was with the bases loaded and 2 outs. This was the one AB where he actually looked like a real professional. He quickly found himself in an 0-2 hole. He took a high fastball. The 1-2 pitch was an ankle high breaking ball. Sano flinched at it but laid off. He then fouled off a high fastball. Finally the pitcher made the mistake Sano was looking for, a belt high hanger that was launched about 430 ft for a grand slam.

I'm actually glad to know that Sano has been seeing so many breaking balls, it can only help him get better at recognizing these pitches and laying off the bad ones. Next year the pitchers will only get better and the FSL is a pitchers league. I still expect Sano to hit for good power though.

#43 jtrinaldi

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

I went to Appleton, WI for a couple games last year in June. Obviously Sano was my main point of focus. The 1st thing I noticed was that he was seeing about 70% breaking balls(no joke). The problem was, he wasn't giving pitchers a reason to throw him anything else. He had a couple AB's where he looked foolish hacking away a pitches in the dirt. His defense looked fine when I was there. He did miss a hot shot that short hopped him and it was ruled a hit.

The 2nd game I saw was pretty good for him. He hit a solid line drive single in his 1st AB. Struck out his 2nd AB. His 3rd AB was with the bases loaded and 2 outs. This was the one AB where he actually looked like a real professional. He quickly found himself in an 0-2 hole. He took a high fastball. The 1-2 pitch was an ankle high breaking ball. Sano flinched at it but laid off. He then fouled off a high fastball. Finally the pitcher made the mistake Sano was looking for, a belt high hanger that was launched about 430 ft for a grand slam.

I'm actually glad to know that Sano has been seeing so many breaking balls, it can only help him get better at recognizing these pitches and laying off the bad ones. Next year the pitchers will only get better and the FSL is a pitchers league. I still expect Sano to hit for good power though.

Were you at the game when he hit the Grand Slam?
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#44 mnfanforlife

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:42 PM

I went to Appleton, WI for a couple games last year in June. Obviously Sano was my main point of focus. The 1st thing I noticed was that he was seeing about 70% breaking balls(no joke). The problem was, he wasn't giving pitchers a reason to throw him anything else. He had a couple AB's where he looked foolish hacking away a pitches in the dirt. His defense looked fine when I was there. He did miss a hot shot that short hopped him and it was ruled a hit.

The 2nd game I saw was pretty good for him. He hit a solid line drive single in his 1st AB. Struck out his 2nd AB. His 3rd AB was with the bases loaded and 2 outs. This was the one AB where he actually looked like a real professional. He quickly found himself in an 0-2 hole. He took a high fastball. The 1-2 pitch was an ankle high breaking ball. Sano flinched at it but laid off. He then fouled off a high fastball. Finally the pitcher made the mistake Sano was looking for, a belt high hanger that was launched about 430 ft for a grand slam.

I'm actually glad to know that Sano has been seeing so many breaking balls, it can only help him get better at recognizing these pitches and laying off the bad ones. Next year the pitchers will only get better and the FSL is a pitchers league. I still expect Sano to hit for good power though.


This is great stuff! No doubt Sano will strikeout a ton in the majors....but he will be productive like many of the high K/high power hitters making millions today

#45 mlhouse

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:35 AM

I have been arguing this point for two years now. THe Twins approach to their minor league system is too conservative. A few years ago, when the team was at least a contender for the playoffs it was probably the best approach. But now, as a rebuilding team, it isn't.

Aaron Hicks NEEDS to be the starting OF for the Twins next year. No partial season in AAA. Major league. Same with Gibson in the rotation. Sano and Rosario need to be looked at too during the course of the season. I think the Twins need to keep Joe Benson as a backup OF and see if he can do anything. If the management cannot tell if they are keepers and can be developed they are not doing their jobs and need to be fired. This is our reality going forward.

So, why the hell not? After consecutive 95+ loss seasons they have nothing really to lose. To not do this means that they simply cannot or will not develop young players at the major league level. Listen, this worked in 1982. After a couple of rough years, it paid off. Hrbek(21 years old), Gaetti (22 years old), Puckett(23 years old), Viola(22 years old), Bush, Gagne, and Launder were all players "rushed" from the minors.

Puckett played a short season rookie year, a full season of A+, 21 games at AAA and then to the majors. Viola started in AA, pitched 8 games in AAA the next year before he was called up to the majors. Hrbek played a short rookie year, A-, and A+ when he was called up to the majors. Gaetti short rookie, full A, almost a full year in AA and then late season call up. But, they got to the majors really young, worked out their problems at the major league level, LOST lots of games and but in the end, it all turned out alright.


For those of us pushing for moving prospects into the major leagues faster, I will point out that the 1982 Twins lost 102 games. Plus, when they are losing with these guys, I already can hear the complaining about the "cheap Pohlads" for playing minimum-salary player who should be in the minor leagues. One other thought: While the '82 team was the foundation of tehe '87 world champions, let's not glamorize the 1987 Twins, or lose sight of the fact that they were a severely flawed team with only 2 effective starting pitchers. They caught lightening in a bottle by being in the right division (they won the division with 85 wins), and getting hot at the right time. They took a chance with that core group, and got lucky in '87.

I agree that players who are ready can and should move through the minors quickly. But that is clearly not the case with Sano; 90 errors in the 3 years would make him a 20-year-old DH who struggles to hit breaking pitches.Similarly, someone suggested putting Joe Benson on the 25-man in 2013 "to see what he can do": In 2012 he was demoted early for terrible production, then was injured for most of the remainder of the season. If you recall, he and Parmalee were recalled in 2011, and while Parmalee excelled, Benson looked like a guy snatched out of AA-ball without the tools to play in the major leagues.

Personally, I'll side with Ryan and see if he can pull together a competitive club in 2013 by adding pitching, and give most of these guys at least another year in the minors. Sano is NOT Bryce Harper, and rushing him, Rosaria, Arcia, Benson, et al, onto the major leagues is going to hurt the team in the near term, with no evidence it would help them longer-term.


Who cares how many games the Twins lost in 1982. That is the point. When you are losing, rebuild. After two 95+ loss seasons what players have the Twins developed for the long run? Get the prospects, like Joe Benson, up to the major leagues and see what they can do. From the 1982 team there were several guys who made it and a few that did not, like Dave Engle, Lenny Faedo, and Brad Havens. Rebuilding is a two step process: develop the guys who are good and weed out and replace the guys who are not. By moving early on Lenny Faedo they got Greg Gagne up to replace him. If you move conservatively you will not get that information.

#46 mlhouse

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:00 AM

Lets look at another historical example, Chuck Knoblauch. Drafted in 1989 at the end of the first round he started played 50 games at A- and 20 at A+. In 1990 he was in AA. And in 1991 he was with the Twins.

Following the Twins current conservative path, he would have played 1989 at Elizabethton and maybe the end of the year at Beloit. He would have started 1990 in Beloit, then maybe part of the season in Ft Myers. If he was really good they would have had him in New Britain in 1991 and maybe a shot at the end of the season with the MLB team. So, Knoblauch might have made the Twins at the end of the season he was ROY in. THis was mainly the path Mauer took (Rookie--->A---->A+/AA--->A+/AAA/MLB).

#47 70charger

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:44 AM

Lets look at another historical example, Chuck Knoblauch. Drafted in 1989 at the end of the first round he started played 50 games at A- and 20 at A+. In 1990 he was in AA. And in 1991 he was with the Twins.

Following the Twins current conservative path, he would have played 1989 at Elizabethton and maybe the end of the year at Beloit. He would have started 1990 in Beloit, then maybe part of the season in Ft Myers. If he was really good they would have had him in New Britain in 1991 and maybe a shot at the end of the season with the MLB team. So, Knoblauch might have made the Twins at the end of the season he was ROY in. THis was mainly the path Mauer took (Rookie--->A---->A+/AA--->A+/AAA/MLB).


I don't think you realize what you just did there. You negated yourself in exactly the way that those who pay attention have already understood: "Knoblauch moved more quickly than the "modern era" Twins. Kinda like Joe Mauer." ...wait, what?

Not to be a dick, but this whole premise is stupid because you fail to acknowledge the simple and obvious fact that every single player is different.

And that's all there is to it.

#48 Steve J

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:57 AM

I don't think Sano and Delmon are comparable. Delmon's minor league OBP was driven largely by a batting average, Sano's by a high walk rate.

#49 mnfanforlife

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:30 AM

Lets look at another historical example, Chuck Knoblauch. Drafted in 1989 at the end of the first round he started played 50 games at A- and 20 at A+. In 1990 he was in AA. And in 1991 he was with the Twins.

Following the Twins current conservative path, he would have played 1989 at Elizabethton and maybe the end of the year at Beloit. He would have started 1990 in Beloit, then maybe part of the season in Ft Myers. If he was really good they would have had him in New Britain in 1991 and maybe a shot at the end of the season with the MLB team. So, Knoblauch might have made the Twins at the end of the season he was ROY in. THis was mainly the path Mauer took (Rookie--->A---->A+/AA--->A+/AAA/MLB).


I don't think you realize what you just did there. You negated yourself in exactly the way that those who pay attention have already understood: "Knoblauch moved more quickly than the "modern era" Twins. Kinda like Joe Mauer." ...wait, what?

Not to be a dick, but this whole premise is stupid because you fail to acknowledge the simple and obvious fact that every single player is different.

And that's all there is to it.


This whole premise is a very inelligent, well-thought-out philosphy of teaching baseball to elite prospects at the higher levels faster than the current trend. Good example with Chuck, mlhouse. Maybe Sano isnt as good as Knoblauch was at the same age? Sano certainly wasnt as good as Harper at the same age. But he is an elite prospect, hence the #1 ratings by most lists.

#50 mnfanforlife

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:38 AM

I don't think Sano and Delmon are comparable. Delmon's minor league OBP was driven largely by a batting average, Sano's by a high walk rate.


True, Delmon and Sano are as different as can be. But they are similar in that they were signed as teenagers. But, Delmon, being from the U.S.(?), was able to play at higher levels immediately. Whereas Sano is not getting that opportunity (for whatever reason). I can see that Sano strikes out a ton and had a ton of errors and whatever. But so did Plouffe. So did Valencia. So did Bautista. Lets just stop right there with listing Twins 3rd baseman that were crap defensively and couldn't make consistent contact.

#51 mike wants wins

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:07 AM

We will know a lot more if Arcia repeats AA.....

#52 Seth Stohs

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:08 AM

[quote name='mnfanforlife'][quote name='70charger'][quote name='mlhouse']Lets look at another historical example, Chuck Knoblauch. Drafted in 1989 at the end of the first round he started played 50 games at A- and 20 at A+. In 1990 he was in AA. And in 1991 he was with the Twins.

Following the Twins current conservative path, he would have played 1989 at Elizabethton and maybe the end of the year at Beloit. He would have started 1990 in Beloit, then maybe part of the season in Ft Myers. If he was really good they would have had him in New Britain in 1991 and maybe a shot at the end of the season with the MLB team. So, Knoblauch might have made the Twins at the end of the season he was ROY in. THis was mainly the path Mauer took (Rookie--->A---->A+/AA--->A+/AAA/MLB).[/QUOTE]

I don't think you realize what you just did there. You negated yourself in exactly the way that those who pay attention have already understood: "Knoblauch moved more quickly than the "modern era" Twins. Kinda like Joe Mauer." ...wait, what?

Not to be a dick, but this whole premise is stupid because you fail to acknowledge the simple and obvious fact that every single player is different.

And that's all there is to it.[/QUOTE]

This whole premise is a very inelligent, well-thought-out philosphy of teaching baseball to elite prospects at the higher levels faster than the current trend. Good example with Chuck, mlhouse. Maybe Sano isnt as good as Knoblauch was at the same age? Sano certainly wasnt as good as Harper at the same age. But he is an elite prospect, hence the #1 ratings by most lists.[/QUOTE]

Just a reminder... Knoblauch was a 1st round pick from a big-time college program. The Twins started him at Hi-A, and he played great and moved up to AA quickly...

Levi Michael was a 1st round pick from a big-time college program. The Twins started him at Hi-A... don't you think that if he would have played well, the Twins would have moved him up??

#53 mnfanforlife

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:19 AM

Good point Seth. The Michael expample is a good sign that the Twins would start a guy on an accelerated path if they deem the prospect worthy. Levi has either proven unworthy, or that the Florida State league deflates offensive numbers.

Edited by mnfanforlife, 09 November 2012 - 09:29 AM.


#54 mnfanforlife

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:25 AM

The problem I have with how they have dealt with Sano/Rosario, is that they were both wayyy too good for a full year in Elizabethton. In my opinion, they both could have skipped (or spent half a season in) ELZ and been getting a taste of full-season schedule in Beloit in 2011. That wouldhave allowed them to break in to an advanced league at A+ towards the end of last year. If they succeeded in A+ last year we could be talking about starting in A+ and putting pressure on the MLB club to vacate 2B and 3B (making way for Rosario/Sano) to start 2014.

#55 mnfanforlife

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:41 AM

I can't wait to see what he can do in A+!

#56 markominne

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:05 AM

[quote name='mlhouse'][quote name='markominne'][quote name='mlhouse']I have been arguing this point for two years now. THe Twins approach to their minor league system is too conservative. A few years ago, when the team was at least a contender for the playoffs it was probably the best approach. But now, as a rebuilding team, it isn't.

Aaron Hicks NEEDS to be the starting OF for the Twins next year. No partial season in AAA. Major league. Same with Gibson in the rotation. Sano and Rosario need to be looked at too during the course of the season. I think the Twins need to keep Joe Benson as a backup OF and see if he can do anything. If the management cannot tell if they are keepers and can be developed they are not doing their jobs and need to be fired. This is our reality going forward.

So, why the hell not? After consecutive 95+ loss seasons they have nothing really to lose. To not do this means that they simply cannot or will not develop young players at the major league level. Listen, this worked in 1982. After a couple of rough years, it paid off. Hrbek(21 years old), Gaetti (22 years old), Puckett(23 years old), Viola(22 years old), Bush, Gagne, and Launder were all players "rushed" from the minors.

Puckett played a short season rookie year, a full season of A+, 21 games at AAA and then to the majors. Viola started in AA, pitched 8 games in AAA the next year before he was called up to the majors. Hrbek played a short rookie year, A-, and A+ when he was called up to the majors. Gaetti short rookie, full A, almost a full year in AA and then late season call up. But, they got to the majors really young, worked out their problems at the major league level, LOST lots of games and but in the end, it all turned out alright.[/QUOTE]

For those of us pushing for moving prospects into the major leagues faster, I will point out that the 1982 Twins lost 102 games. Plus, when they are losing with these guys, I already can hear the complaining about the "cheap Pohlads" for playing minimum-salary player who should be in the minor leagues. One other thought: While the '82 team was the foundation of tehe '87 world champions, let's not glamorize the 1987 Twins, or lose sight of the fact that they were a severely flawed team with only 2 effective starting pitchers. They caught lightening in a bottle by being in the right division (they won the division with 85 wins), and getting hot at the right time. They took a chance with that core group, and got lucky in '87.

I agree that players who are ready can and should move through the minors quickly. But that is clearly not the case with Sano; 90 errors in the 3 years would make him a 20-year-old DH who struggles to hit breaking pitches.Similarly, someone suggested putting Joe Benson on the 25-man in 2013 "to see what he can do": In 2012 he was demoted early for terrible production, then was injured for most of the remainder of the season. If you recall, he and Parmalee were recalled in 2011, and while Parmalee excelled, Benson looked like a guy snatched out of AA-ball without the tools to play in the major leagues.

Personally, I'll side with Ryan and see if he can pull together a competitive club in 2013 by adding pitching, and give most of these guys at least another year in the minors. Sano is NOT Bryce Harper, and rushing him, Rosaria, Arcia, Benson, et al, onto the major leagues is going to hurt the team in the near term, with no evidence it would help them longer-term.[/QUOTE]

Who cares how many games the Twins lost in 1982. That is the point. When you are losing, rebuild. After two 95+ loss seasons what players have the Twins developed for the long run? Get the prospects, like Joe Benson, up to the major leagues and see what they can do. From the 1982 team there were several guys who made it and a few that did not, like Dave Engle, Lenny Faedo, and Brad Havens. Rebuilding is a two step process: develop the guys who are good and weed out and replace the guys who are not. By moving early on Lenny Faedo they got Greg Gagne up to replace him. If you move conservatively you will not get that information.[/QUOTE]

My point is simply that the 1982 rebuild job you're glorifying resulted in a world series championship 5 years later, by a team that was at least as lucky as good. Say what you will, but rushing that great crop of rookies from 1982 that you hold up as an example resulted in exactly 2 winning (and 1 .500) season in 9 years (1982-1990), by the end of which the team had been substantially rebuilt. I don't think you or most of us are going to continue attending games at Target Field for 5 years of losing baseball in the hopes that at the end of that period the Twins might cobble together an 85-win season that might or might not be enough to get them into even the expanded playoffs. In the meantime, many of us will be howling about how the "cheap" Pohlads are playing minor leaguers instead of retaining and buying established major leaguers. Like it or not, the business of baseball requires a competitive team on the field for a team to be viable.

#57 kab21

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:19 AM

I think it's silly complaining about Sano's promotions based on a few elite HS #1 overall picks that moved quickly and became stars. He was in full season ball as a teenager and he has some issues. I think the comments that he saw 70% breaking balls is an issue. He still struck out a lot and most pitchers in low A don't have a good breaking ball.

I'm hoping he can take the Giancarlo (Michael) Stanton path and get a promotion to AA next season while being on the radar in 2014 for a promotion. Going that fast will probably mean that 3B is not an option though.

#58 mnfanforlife

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:58 PM

Good comparison of Sano to Stanton. Thats probably the best Ive heard yet. Big hitter, dunno what they r gonna b on D

#59 Kwak

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:47 PM

I think it's silly complaining about Sano's promotions based on a few elite HS #1 overall picks that moved quickly and became stars. He was in full season ball as a teenager and he has some issues. I think the comments that he saw 70% breaking balls is an issue. He still struck out a lot and most pitchers in low A don't have a good breaking ball.

I'm hoping he can take the Giancarlo (Michael) Stanton path and get a promotion to AA next season while being on the radar in 2014 for a promotion. Going that fast will probably mean that 3B is not an option though.


Ouch! That's a painful reminder to me--Stanton the OF the Twins should have drafted instead of Revere. I favor Sano beginning at Ft. Meyers and hopefully at mid-season earning a promotion to New Britain.

#60 kab21

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

Ouch! That's a painful reminder to me--Stanton the OF the Twins should have drafted instead of Revere. I favor Sano beginning at Ft. Meyers and hopefully at mid-season earning a promotion to New Britain.


I hope this isn't a hindsight post.