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#641 Sconnie

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Posted 29 June 2020 - 07:40 AM

Congrats you are one of the few in the media that don't say headlines without context (good or bad) and put in the time not to slant stuff the way believe it should be, but overall the media does a terrible job.

Look at the graph above this post, what does it mean other than to scare people into wearing masks? (people should wear masks, but not by scare tactics).
Why is California colored green on that map, their numbers aren't going down, they are going up?
direct quote from the LA Times on Saturday

"The state has seen a surge in COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations in recent weeks that officials attribute to a variety of factors including people increasingly leaving home; holding social gatherings; failing to wear face coverings; outbreaks in nursing homes, prisons, newly opened workplaces and overcrowded homes; and recent political protests."

One could put a map or graph up showing the debt being accrued by states with tighter lock downs compared to the debt by states with looser regulations. But again it doesn't mean a darn thing without context.

And as a media person you should be calling out other media folks that are doing a terrible job, because they are making all of the others in that media, look like really bad.
It is really no wonder why the country is at everybody throats, the media (and politicians) is pitting people against each other, white/black, male/female, LGBQ/Straight, mask wears/non-mask wearers, there is no attempt to say point out ALL the common ground in people they only point out the differences.
(Just remember is was OK and encouraged to protest the last few weeks, but it wasn't/isn't OK to protest for the states to re-open)


Mod note, let’s keep to topic. Covid media coverage is fine, but please don’t expand beyond Covid.

Maybe we need to define “Media” vs. “News”. Ben works in News. News needs to be vetted, frequently News is behind a paywall.

I quoted above Dr Bob who’s Media, not all media is vetted. Frequently media is not behind a paywall. I quoted Dr Bob because he’s an expert. He was referred to me by News, and seems like a trustworthy source to me. Everyone should view the lens however. He’s the head of UCSF medical dept. and trying to get everyone to wear masks.

If you look at the legend of the info graphic, it describes the rule being mapped for mask wearers. The 25% drop being indicated is sum across all of the states with the same color code that indicates the mask rule. Inside of the states, some are up and some are down.

Same with the brown ones. Some are up and some are down.

Here’s the original story BTW.

https://www.inquirer...impression=true
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#642 Tomj14

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Posted 29 June 2020 - 08:19 AM

 

Mod note, let’s keep to topic. Covid media coverage is fine, but please don’t expand beyond Covid.

Maybe we need to define “Media” vs. “News”. Ben works in News. News needs to be vetted, frequently News is behind a paywall.

I quoted above Dr Bob who’s Media, not all media is vetted. Frequently media is not behind a paywall. I quoted Dr Bob because he’s an expert. He was referred to me by News, and seems like a trustworthy source to me. Everyone should view the lens however. He’s the head of UCSF medical dept. and trying to get everyone to wear masks.

If you look at the legend of the info graphic, it describes the rule being mapped for mask wearers. The 25% drop being indicated is sum across all of the states with the same color code that indicates the mask rule. Inside of the states, some are up and some are down.

Same with the brown ones. Some are up and some are down.

Here’s the original story BTW.

https://www.inquirer...impression=true

Cleaned up my prior post to only include Covid.

As for the graphic you posted, you don't think the highlighting of the numbers was misleading at best?

 

I am not saying masks are bad or they shouldn't be wore, what I am saying is that graph is horribly misleading and set up for a reason to scare people. Again all numbers should be posted with some context?

 

First line from article "Coronavirus cases seem to be rising in states with relaxed policies on wearing masks"

 

Seem is the key word, because when you dig into the numbers and places, the mask policy seems to only be part of the issue, I am not saying it can't possibly hurt to wear them but it does seem others things seem to be a play as well.

It also seems that the states that were hit hard in the nursing homes earlier have seen things go down and some of the states that weren't hit as hard earlier are being hit hard in the nursing home now(Texas for example is getting destroyed in nursing home and assisted living type places) it would be nice for somebody to dig deeper into this (the news not you :) )

 

 

 

 

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#643 Sconnie

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Posted 29 June 2020 - 10:28 AM

 

Cleaned up my prior post to only include Covid.

As for the graphic you posted, you don't think the highlighting of the numbers was misleading at best?

 

I am not saying masks are bad or they shouldn't be wore, what I am saying is that graph is horribly misleading and set up for a reason to scare people. Again all numbers should be posted with some context?

 

First line from article "Coronavirus cases seem to be rising in states with relaxed policies on wearing masks"

 

Seem is the key word, because when you dig into the numbers and places, the mask policy seems to only be part of the issue, I am not saying it can't possibly hurt to wear them but it does seem others things seem to be a play as well.

It also seems that the states that were hit hard in the nursing homes earlier have seen things go down and some of the states that weren't hit as hard earlier are being hit hard in the nursing home now(Texas for example is getting destroyed in nursing home and assisted living type places) it would be nice for somebody to dig deeper into this (the news not you :) )

absolutely - we should all be critical consumers of information, and agreed 1000% that masks are only part of the equation. It's so difficult to see the big picture with such disaggregated and disjointed state by state, county by county, and city by city rules and impacts, compared to broad brush analysis.

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#644 a-wan

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 01:06 AM

It is pretty damn simple. A cloth mask that actually covers your nose and mask limits respiratory droplets. Less droplets, less virus particles.

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#645 ashbury

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 08:20 PM

Ever since the pandemic started getting serious, I have been interested in seeing year-over-year total death numbers in the US, because of the vagaries of counting covid-19 deaths in realtime. Today, I located a peer-reviewed paper, published under the auspices of the Journal of the American Medical Assocation (JAMA), specifically JAMA Internal Medicine. The full text of the report is here: https://jamanetwork....article/2767980

 

As I would have surmised, the conclusion drawn by the study is that deaths are being under-reported, not over-reported. The reasons for this will be the source for future studies, no doubt. But compared to a baseline of past years, the number of "excess deaths" during March through May was calculated to be 122,300. The total death toll reported in the media for that period was 95 235, for cases directly identified as covid-19, i.e. a 28% difference. The methodology has been used for a century or more, to gauge the effect of past epidemic such as the flu.

 

The difference is not of a scale that indicates everything we thought we knew is wrong. But, for me, it confirms that pinpointing the causes of death is difficult when the health care system begins to be overwhelmed, and inadequate testing resources causes some covid-19 deaths to be misattributed.

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#646 Cap'n Piranha

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Posted 28 July 2020 - 05:53 PM

In 2010, there were approximately 5M people over the age of 85 in the US (according to the census)--we can safely assume that number is probably up, but lets say it's at least static.That means only about 1.5% to 2% of the population is 85 or over, and yet they represent almost 31% of deaths in the Feb 12 through May 18 time period, according to the CDC.Also according to the CDC, there's a 1 in 7 chance that someone 85 or older dies in a given year from any cause, which means we would expect almost 700k people over the age of 85 to die every year--in the 97 day period quoted above, that would become 186k deaths, which is about 11x as many as died from Covid-19 in that timeframe.Even Imperial College London, which in March suggested the insane 2.2M Covid-19 death number for the US (i.e. not a source attempting to downplay Covd-19), admits perhaps as many as 2/3 of the people who die of Covid-19 were likely to die soon anyways.

 

Taken further, a full 80% of deaths have come from people over 65, while less than 3% have come from people 44 or under.in 2010, 60ish percent of the population was 44 or under--applied to the estimated population of 328M today, that means in this 3 month period, less than 1500 out of almost 200 MILLION died of Covid (assuming the numbers are correct, and don't include motorcycle deaths), which means if you're 44 or under, you had a 99.99925% chance of not dying from Covid-19.What is happening is that a group of people at almost no risk from Covid-19 are being forced to act as if they are at substantial risk, which makes no sense.Quarantines and lockdowns make sense if you, or someone you must come into contact with regularly, are elderly or have a known medical condition, but there are literally tens of millions of people who do not fall into either of those categories.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/...wr/mm6928e1.htm

 

https://www.census.g.../c2010br-09.pdf

 

https://www.beckersh...e-accident.html

 

https://www.census.g.../c2010br-03.pdf

 

https://www.bbc.com/...health-51979654

 

 

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#647 In My La-Z-boy

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Posted 29 July 2020 - 11:52 AM

There were 200 cases yesterday in my State of over 3M citizens - there were 12 cases yesterday in my County of over 150K citizens. The level of fear and angst in the media - pounding and pounding us into submission makes me think there is an election this fall?
Interesting, those of us following the rules are being told to follow more rules, and those of us creating havoc and riots are being allowed create more havoc and riots. A study came out today and it says a majority of American citizens believe that 9% of us have died due to coronavirus. CNN would call that a success. Great Britain media fell a little short - UK citizens think 7% of them have died. 
I am not, nor is anyone else here suggesting this virus isn't what it is. I am suggesting that politico's and there accomplices in the media are driving this world is coming to an end narrative for electioneering purposes. 

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#648 Craig Arko

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Posted 29 July 2020 - 12:16 PM

 

A study came out today and it says a majority of American citizens believe that 9% of us have died due to coronavirus. CNN would call that a success. Great Britain media fell a little short - UK citizens think 7% of them have died. 
 

I'd be fascinated to read this study. Can you provide a source?

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Update your priors.


#649 SQUIRREL

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Posted 29 July 2020 - 12:16 PM

 

There were 200 cases yesterday in my State of over 3M citizens - there were 12 cases yesterday in my County of over 150K citizens. The level of fear and angst in the media - pounding and pounding us into submission makes me think there is an election this fall?
Interesting, those of us following the rules are being told to follow more rules, and those of us creating havoc and riots are being allowed create more havoc and riots. A study came out today and it says a majority of American citizens believe that 9% of us have died due to coronavirus. CNN would call that a success. Great Britain media fell a little short - UK citizens think 7% of them have died. 
I am not, nor is anyone else here suggesting this virus isn't what it is. I am suggesting that politico's and there accomplices in the media are driving this world is coming to an end narrative for electioneering purposes. 

 

It would be nice if using facts and figures and studies to support an opinion, that you provide it. What study areyou referring to? (There are lots of them.) And I'm not aware of CNN saying 'this is a success', and I'm not sure what you mean by success, or this, what's a success? ... but then, I don't listen to CNN. As for the world coming to an end ... given where the climate change sits and the deniers of that science blocking reform and change, I'd say it is. Probably not tomorrow, and probably not in my lifetime, but yes, without change, the world is ending, in my opinion, but I'm not running around screaming 'The sky is falling!', either, but working to support change in that area. But this isn't the thread for that discussion. As for 'world coming to an end' narrative related to your claims ... who is saying this? Again, what have you read about this, or is it just your opinion of how others around you are reacting to the virus and the temporary restrictions this has caused? I guess everyone responds differently. I'm not scared, but I'm doing my due diligence, reading what I can of what experts are saying, trying to follow the research, and following the protocols set up by my city and state officials, and my employers, and internally scoffing at others who don't, but go on my way. It is what it is, and this, too, shall pass.

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#650 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 29 July 2020 - 12:34 PM

 

I'm not scared, but I'm doing my due diligence, reading what I can of what experts are saying, trying to follow the research, and following the protocols set up by my city and state officials, and my employers, and internally scoff at others who don't, but go on my way.

This. I wear a mask because it's easy and shown to be effective. I keep my distance from other people because it's effective and respectful. I sanitize my hands when returning to the car because it takes all of five seconds to do.

 

This isn't fear, it's taking easy, simple precautions to not become part of the quagmire that is this virus and its effects on our economy and healthcare systems.

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#651 In My La-Z-boy

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Posted 29 July 2020 - 01:38 PM

 

I'd be fascinated to read this study. Can you provide a source?

Do not know how to link but here you go;

Kekstcnc.com

It is the covid-19 opinion tracker edition 4 - this particular opinion statistic is found on page 24

Kekst is a very reputable business polling firm, primarily used to help business. You will find this interesting. 


#652 In My La-Z-boy

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Posted 29 July 2020 - 01:53 PM

 

It would be nice if using facts and figures and studies to support an opinion, that you provide it. What study areyou referring to? (There are lots of them.) And I'm not aware of CNN saying 'this is a success', and I'm not sure what you mean by success, or this, what's a success? ... but then, I don't listen to CNN. As for the world coming to an end ... given where the climate change sits and the deniers of that science blocking reform and change, I'd say it is. Probably not tomorrow, and probably not in my lifetime, but yes, without change, the world is ending, in my opinion, but I'm not running around screaming 'The sky is falling!', either, but working to support change in that area. But this isn't the thread for that discussion. As for 'world coming to an end' narrative related to your claims ... who is saying this? Again, what have you read about this, or is it just your opinion of how others around you are reacting to the virus and the temporary restrictions this has caused? I guess everyone responds differently. I'm not scared, but I'm doing my due diligence, reading what I can of what experts are saying, trying to follow the research, and following the protocols set up by my city and state officials, and my employers, and internally scoffing at others who don't, but go on my way. It is what it is, and this, too, shall pass.

It isn't a stretch to admit the media, the left, and the anarchists are attempting to scare us into voting correctly. This is common practice during election years on both sides. Corona is the topic of the year, and is being deployed in a political way. That's all I am suggesting. I am in no way diminishing the real, true and devastating effects the virus has had on the world. This study tells me the scare tactics are working if America thinks 9% of us have died. I thought that was interesting. I am glad you are not scared. There is no reason to be. Due diligence as you say. I do hope things get better for you over there. Illinois is still problematic. 


#653 Craig Arko

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Posted 29 July 2020 - 02:36 PM

This is the report cited. It would be useful to know if these results were corroborated elsewhere, since the sample sizes are not large (1000 people in each of six countries).

 

If it were me, I would not draw conclusions based on this one report, or indeed, any single report.

 

https://www.kekstcnc...cker_wave-4.pdf

 

Update your priors.


#654 SQUIRREL

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Posted 29 July 2020 - 03:05 PM

 

It isn't a stretch to admit the media, the left, and the anarchists are attempting to scare us into voting correctly. This is common practice during election years on both sides. Corona is the topic of the year, and is being deployed in a political way. That's all I am suggesting. I am in no way diminishing the real, true and devastating effects the virus has had on the world. This study tells me the scare tactics are working if America thinks 9% of us have died. I thought that was interesting. I am glad you are not scared. There is no reason to be. Due diligence as you say. I do hope things get better for you over there. Illinois is still problematic. 

Okay.

 

Well, I don't agree that this is just a left ploy. But that would take this into political discussions which are not allowed. You are welcome to your opinions, I don't concur nor agree.

 

 

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#655 biggentleben

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 04:23 PM

 

Okay.

 

Well, I don't agree that this is just a left ploy. But that would take this into political discussions which are not allowed. You are welcome to your opinions, I don't concur nor agree.

PBS had a tremendously timely Frontline piece this week on conspiracy theories. It's amazing how in a press briefing with a Republican Senator on Thursday, he was asked about the idea of moving the election and flat-out laughed. When asked about the President's tweet to that effect, he said that no one truly believed that, and if the President ever truly believed it, he'd already moved off that thought. It was less than two hours after he had sent the tweet.

 

Polarization of the media landscape right now is intentionally played by many figures that are not media. It is nothing to do with the virus. I can tell you that many want to report straight numbers and straight information, understanding this is a novel virus and that details on the treatment and protection for the virus will change as more is found out about it. When those changes become fodder for attacks on the scientific community or used as ammunition as a "lack of holding science to the fire" by one political bend, it makes media attempting to report straight information look biased.

 

I've been accused of being a mouthpiece for both parties as a reporter, which tells me that I'm reporting exactly what's happening rather than putting a spin on any of what's going on because many will read something with a predetermined lean to how they interpret what you write...that, and looking up at social workers and teachers on the pay scale is the joy of reporting.

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#656 TheLeviathan

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 04:10 PM

 

There were 200 cases yesterday in my State of over 3M citizens - there were 12 cases yesterday in my County of over 150K citizens. The level of fear and angst in the media - pounding and pounding us into submission makes me think there is an election this fall?
Interesting, those of us following the rules are being told to follow more rules, and those of us creating havoc and riots are being allowed create more havoc and riots. A study came out today and it says a majority of American citizens believe that 9% of us have died due to coronavirus. CNN would call that a success. Great Britain media fell a little short - UK citizens think 7% of them have died. 
I am not, nor is anyone else here suggesting this virus isn't what it is. I am suggesting that politico's and there accomplices in the media are driving this world is coming to an end narrative for electioneering purposes. 

 

It seems to me that this part at the end is completely unearned by the two paragraphs that preceded it.  

 

It's like a reverse prescription drug commercial.Rather than a rosey commercial of all the drug's benefits for 25 seconds followed by 5 seconds of "here's all the ways it'll try to kill you too!" in rapid fire succession....you went the other way!Two paragraphs of implied conspiracies and mostly unsubstantiated, implausible conjecture followed by 5 seconds of "But I'm totally cool with facts!"

 

With all due respect, if your last paragraph was true, you wouldn't have typed the first two.....which means you wouldn't have had to hedge SO hard on the last one trying to appear rational in spite of them.If you truly aren't trying to suggest something else, the simple remedy is to, just spitballing here,....not spend the rest of your post suggesting something else?


#657 In My La-Z-boy

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 07:58 AM

 

It seems to me that this part at the end is completely unearned by the two paragraphs that preceded it.  

 

It's like a reverse prescription drug commercial.Rather than a rosey commercial of all the drug's benefits for 25 seconds followed by 5 seconds of "here's all the ways it'll try to kill you too!" in rapid fire succession....you went the other way!Two paragraphs of implied conspiracies and mostly unsubstantiated, implausible conjecture followed by 5 seconds of "But I'm totally cool with facts!"

 

With all due respect, if your last paragraph was true, you wouldn't have typed the first two.....which means you wouldn't have had to hedge SO hard on the last one trying to appear rational in spite of them.If you truly aren't trying to suggest something else, the simple remedy is to, just spitballing here,....not spend the rest of your post suggesting something else?

You are suggesting the "absolute" argument - That both cannot be true. You invalidate me because it isn't politically correct to hold the simultaneous view a) virus is dangerous B) virus is being used politically
How does it offend you to suggest politics, while also suggest danger? Suggesting politics somehow disregards and diminishes danger? If I articulate the obvious politics in this, I cannot also hold the view that the virus is dangerous? Tell me what else I am allowed to believe and say please?


#658 TheLeviathan

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 04:50 PM

 

You are suggesting the "absolute" argument - That both cannot be true. You invalidate me because it isn't politically correct to hold the simultaneous view a) virus is dangerous :cool: virus is being used politically
How does it offend you to suggest politics, while also suggest danger? Suggesting politics somehow disregards and diminishes danger? If I articulate the obvious politics in this, I cannot also hold the view that the virus is dangerous? Tell me what else I am allowed to believe and say please?

 

My guess, given you seem to believe all you said was "this is being used politically" when it fully danced with several falsehoods actively being espoused...implies my advice would go unheeded.

 

All things are used politically.You spent quite an effort to speak the obvious.The only absolute in play is that someone who posts they are not espousing falsehoods ought not dance around ideas layered in them.Sorta makes that final paragraph caveat feel unearned.


#659 In My La-Z-boy

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 11:43 AM

 

My guess, given you seem to believe all you said was "this is being used politically" when it fully danced with several falsehoods actively being espoused...implies my advice would go unheeded.

 

All things are used politically.You spent quite an effort to speak the obvious.The only absolute in play is that someone who posts they are not espousing falsehoods ought not dance around ideas layered in them.Sorta makes that final paragraph caveat feel unearned.

So now All things are used politically Mr Absolutist? So my statement about the danger of the virus is invalidated by you, because of my points on it being used politically - and your comeback is "well of course all things are used politically?
If indeed you believe this / and to read your mind like you are attempting to read mine/I don't think you really do - then how do you conclude I'm being disingenuous saying the virus is dangerous by making what you call an obvious point about political motivations? You are the one sir who is being disingenuous in claiming you believe this virus is being used politically. I don't believe you or my post would not have elicited this response from you, and your shifting arguments. Did you even read the study I referenced? 2 posters challenged me on the existence of the study I referred to. I gave them the study, and I heard crickets. It was the results of this study that spurred my comment. Rather than fly off the emotional handle in your aggression to squash what you perceive as dissent, open your eyes to the whole truth. Not just the truth you prefer. Narratives are dangerous. They force everything to fit within a predetermined idea, whether they do or not. This is how the big lie becomes the truth. This Country thinks the virus kills 9% of those that get it. That is not the truth - so why is this? Because a political party is trying to win an election. That's the study, hence my comment - therefore according to you I cannot possibly believe the virus is dangerous. Ok


#660 TheLeviathan

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 12:26 PM

 

So now All things are used politically Mr Absolutist? So my statement about the danger of the virus is invalidated by you, because of my points on it being used politically - and your comeback is "well of course all things are used politically?
If indeed you believe this / and to read your mind like you are attempting to read mine/I don't think you really do - then how do you conclude I'm being disingenuous saying the virus is dangerous by making what you call an obvious point about political motivations? You are the one sir who is being disingenuous in claiming you believe this virus is being used politically. I don't believe you or my post would not have elicited this response from you, and your shifting arguments. Did you even read the study I referenced? 2 posters challenged me on the existence of the study I referred to. I gave them the study, and I heard crickets. It was the results of this study that spurred my comment. Rather than fly off the emotional handle in your aggression to squash what you perceive as dissent, open your eyes to the whole truth. Not just the truth you prefer. Narratives are dangerous. They force everything to fit within a predetermined idea, whether they do or not. This is how the big lie becomes the truth. This Country thinks the virus kills 9% of those that get it. That is not the truth - so why is this? Because a political party is trying to win an election. That's the study, hence my comment - therefore according to you I cannot possibly believe the virus is dangerous. Ok

 

Your study was challenged for the lack of context.Factually speaking, you did not hear crickets, you heard rebuttals.Secondly, I was neither aggressive nor emotional nor disingenuous.I pointed out your lack of consistency.Given this post seems to reflect many of those adjectives, perhaps you're projecting.Thirdly, both political parties are trying to win an election and both have used this virus to win political points.As they do with all things that have the public's attention.I would say something about the quality of the science behind both of those parties' efforts, but I'm not here to debate with you.

 

My point all along was that you appear to believe there is a, in your words, "big lie" and here you admit that.If you want to believe it's all a big lie.Ok.I won't debate that in a forum, it's not worth the effort.But don't believe the big lie and then say, paraphrasing, say you aren't denying that the virus "is what it is".At least own your thoughts, but perhaps consider the caveat you put at the end is your own reason trying to plead with you to listen more often.