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Brusdar Graterol's Strange Journey: What Did We Learn?

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#21 Shaitan

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 09:26 AM

LAD seems like a good fit. They know how to build innings and use swingmeninstead of the traditional 1 IP approach (e.g. Maeda and Urias in recent years).

 

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#22 JLease

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 10:05 AM

I find it bizarre to give Boston any leeway for how they handled this. What could they have possibly seen in "the medicals" that would have shown them that "hey, maybe the twins are right and he's a bullpen guy after all"? What could they have possibly seen in an old MRI and the year-end physical that would give them more information that his arm could hold up for only 60-80 innings a year vs 150-200 innings a year over scouting him as a player?

 

the answer is, of course, nothing.

 

There are few realistic scenarios for why this happened: 1) The BoSox think the twins medical staff and scouting are incompetent, ignored everything that came out around the decision to move him to the bullpen...and then realized that "dang, maybe they were right all along". 2) the team got crushed by their fan base and most analysts for the deal they had in place (mostly for giving up betts at all to save money) and panicked.

 

Fortunately for them, LA still really wanted Betts (and why wouldn't they? he's a generational talent) and was comfortable eating a chunk of Price's contract.

 

LA also knew that with price coming on board they didn't have room in their rotation for Maeda and knew he was going to be pissed off all year if they dumped him in the bullpen absent injury. Graterol fit just fine on their team, and it sounds like they still liked Raley and threw a little more cash around, since they're printing money out there.

 

From a baseball perspective, this worked out for LA, though they ended up giving up a little more prospect capital than they probably wanted to. it worked out for the twins because they fortified their rotation not just for this year but also for the next few years at low risk, and they're ready to go for it this year and next.

 

from a financial perspective, the BoSox got what they wanted: a reset on the luxury tax and out from under most of david "i hate it here" price and his contract. From a baseball perspective, it stinks for Boston, unless these prospects both turn into allstars. because they gave up an MVP. A generational talent. They basically threw in the towel on 2020, unless the Yankees totally bust out (seems unlikely) Guys like Betts just don't come around very often and they do more than just win baseball games for you: they inspire a generation of fans. Think about what watching Kirby Puckett for his whole career did for a generation of twins fans. Betts was one of those guys for Boston and they dumped him because ownership wanted to make like $100M in profits rather than $50M. They have that right, and it's a lot of money, but it not great for baseball in Boston.

 

On the other hand, screw them. they've won plenty in the last 15 years or so; maybe it's great that they're starting to botch things up for their team on the field!

 

 

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#23 spycake

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 10:10 AM

 

I find it bizarre to give Boston any leeway for how they handled this. What could they have possibly seen in "the medicals" that would have shown them that "hey, maybe the twins are right and he's a bullpen guy after all"? What could they have possibly seen in an old MRI and the year-end physical that would give them more information that his arm could hold up for only 60-80 innings a year vs 150-200 innings a year over scouting him as a player?

 

the answer is, of course, nothing.

This is an incorrect assertion about what is contained in player's medical record.

 

Not just every exam, but every interaction with training staff, every treatment recommended by staff, the results of monitoring those treatments, etc.

 

I've linked this a billion times already, but it's a very good explanation of the process:

 

“How baseball teams exchange medical information, and what it means for the Mookie Betts trade”

 

https://www.bostongl...?outputType=amp

 

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#24 Monkeypaws

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 10:16 AM

 

LAD seems like a good fit. They know how to build innings and use swingmeninstead of the traditional 1 IP approach (e.g. Maeda and Urias in recent years).

 

Which would be the perfect approach with Graterol - he's the age of a college junior starting his career in Elizabethton. Still so much time to stretch that arm out.


#25 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 10:20 AM

 


You as a GM would have to be absolutely naive not to believe that Brusdar with TJ surgery and shoulder impingement while still throwing 99 Mph isn't going to spend time on the DL with arm injuries? Boston playing games? Please.

 

I guess the point many are making is that this statement applies equally to Boston too. They'd have had to be naïve not to think that this was a real possibility. I tend to think the medicals were likely more of an excuse than anything. 

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#26 IAMNFan

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 10:25 AM

I fully expect Maeda to go about 2 1/3 in his first start just so Twins fans can go bat$*** crazy and then he'll settle into a nice groove like Pineda did last season that too few noticed.I like the move and Maeda starts will be more important than any relievers appearances.


#27 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 10:40 AM

I fully expect Maeda to go about 2 1/3 in his first start just so Twins fans can go bat$*** crazy and then he'll settle into a nice groove like Pineda did last season that too few noticed. I like the move and Maeda starts will be more important than any relievers appearances.

Especially given the Twins bullpen. Graterol is a great arm but the Twins already have a BUNCH of really good arms in the bullpen.

What the Twins *don’t* have is a bunch of really good arms in the rotation and while Maeda isn’t the sexiest target in baseball, adding a fourth guy that slots in with similar numbers to Odorizzi, Pineda, and maybe even Berrios is a pretty big deal over 162 games. The Twins now have a solidly above average rotation and that shouldn’t be dismissed simply because they didn’t go out and get a flashy name.
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#28 cardsfan

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 04:10 PM

Especially given the Twins bullpen. Graterol is a great arm but the Twins already have a BUNCH of really good arms in the bullpen.

What the Twins *don’t* have is a bunch of really good arms in the rotation and while Maeda isn’t the sexiest target in baseball, adding a fourth guy that slots in with similar numbers to Odorizzi, Pineda, and maybe even Berrios is a pretty big deal over 162 games. The Twins now have a solidly above average rotation and that shouldn’t be dismissed simply because they didn’t go out and get a flashy name.

Out of all the teams in the AL that won more than 73 last year a total of 8 I still think your pitching would rank 8th among those 8. Against 4 bad teams you were 31 games above .500. I'm wondering how well the Yankees or Dodgers AAA team would have done against the Tigers, Royals, White Sox and Orioles.

#29 cardsfan

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 04:28 PM

But it kind of reminds me of the days where pitchers like Johnson and Clemens were averaging 97 on their fastballs.

eh? eh?

There are 83 HOF pitchers. If you can average 95 Mph until you are in your late 30's you are going to the HOF unless they won't vote for you because you use PEDs. Clemons had a down year or two with the Red Sox and then miraculously he's winning Cy Youngs again after going to the Blue Jays and Yankees.

#30 Nick Nelson

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 04:34 PM

 

Out of all the teams in the AL that won more than 73 last year a total of 8 I still think your pitching would rank 8th among those 8. Against 4 bad teams you were 31 games above .500. I'm wondering how well the Yankees or Dodgers AAA team would have done against the Tigers, Royals, White Sox and Orioles.

The Yankees went 17-2 against Baltimore so let's not act like they didn't have their own similar advantage. The notion that Minnesota lost to the Yankees in the ALDS because NYY's pitching was wildly better is not really supported by any evidence. 

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#31 cardsfan

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 04:50 PM

Here's what I think the Dodgers game plan with Price and Graterol is. After all, Dodger pitching since the 1940's is by far the best in baseball during the regular season. I miss the McCourts fighting over their divorce while the Dodgers declined. Oh, the Dodgers lose a lot of deciding last games of the regular season and many last games of the postseason.

The Dodgers don't believe they are getting a subpar David Price. Have him start 20 games in Dodger Stadium and San Diego's ballpark and see if the Dodgers don't win 112 games this year. You will have to outpitch the Dodgers in the postseason.

Now as far as Graterol, it looks like they want him to start eventually. He starts and say wins 16 games with a good WHIP and ERA they will re-evaluate and perhaps trade him before losing him to 2 years with arm problems and rehab. The Dodgers can develop or buy or trade for pitching. Better to trade a pitcher one year too early than a year too late.

Could the Dodgers trade off Price after a great year with 2 years left? Will they get to keep the Red Sox money?

#32 cardsfan

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 05:02 PM

The Yankees went 17-2 against Baltimore so let's not act like they didn't have their own similar advantage. The notion that Minnesota lost to the Yankees in the ALDS because NYY's pitching was wildly better is not really supported by any evidence.


#33 cardsfan

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 05:08 PM

They were 14-5 against the World Champion Red Sox as the Sox won 84.

Someone mentioned the Pirates were similar in the NL Central. But, the Pirates were only 2.5 out at the ASG break one game below .500 before losing 93 games. Only the Marlins were awful the entire season.

#34 Riverbrian

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 06:38 PM

 

Do we really know that it "took a toll" on Graterol? I guess it was revealed that one team expressed skepticism about his medicals, which might be weird but hardly surprising. No real details were leaked about those medicals. Being traded in general is probably a bit of a weird experience, especially the first time, but I wouldn't necessarily describe it as "taking a toll". On the positive side, Graterol saw that two powerhouse organizations were both interested in his services, which might be a bit of an ego boost.

 

Also, I'm guessing it was more chaos among media and fans than with the teams and players. The Twins likely informed Graterol of the deal when it was first announced and kept him updated on the process. The process wasn't even that long when you think about it -- yes, longer than the average trade, but it appears the teams agreed in principle on Tuesday evening, spent Wednesday reviewing medicals, Thursday and Friday renegotiating based on those medicals, Saturday the original configuration of the deal was abandoned, then on Sunday all parties came to new agreements. Considering it's still technically the offseason, that's hardly an egregious timeline.

 

If Graterol pitches well... He will be fine. He will control his fate through performance. The front offices around the league will determine his value ultimately and if he pitches well he will be fine. 

 

However, of course it took a toll on the kid. 

 

He's famous now. Pulled out of the darkness and branded fragile for all to see. The press and fan base will play the fragile card every time he hits the DL. Yes, players need to learn to ignore this stuff because it's always out there but this turns the amp up to 11. The louder the amp, the harder it is to not hear it. 

 

If he pitches well... he will be fine. But, I won't minimize the damage done. 

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#35 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 07:14 PM

The Yankees went 17-2 against Baltimore so let's not act like they didn't have their own similar advantage. The notion that Minnesota lost to the Yankees in the ALDS because NYY's pitching was wildly better is not really supported by any evidence.


We sure had a hard time hitting them in that series.

#36 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 07:26 PM

 

Out of all the teams in the AL that won more than 73 last year a total of 8 I still think your pitching would rank 8th among those 8.

And you'd be wrong. The Rangers had a team ERA nearly one full run higher than the Twins last season. Boston was half a run higher.

 

The Twins had a deceptively competent pitching staff last season.

 

They had the second highest pitching staff fWAR and the third lowest FIP in the American League.

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#37 Riverbrian

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 07:44 PM

 

Out of all the teams in the AL that won more than 73 last year a total of 8 I still think your pitching would rank 8th among those 8. Against 4 bad teams you were 31 games above .500. I'm wondering how well the Yankees or Dodgers AAA team would have done against the Tigers, Royals, White Sox and Orioles.

 

The 5 worst records in the AL:

Tigers

Orioles

Royals

Blue Jays

Mariners 

 

Against those 5 teams:

Twins were 43-15

Yankees were 42-16

 

If you insist on substituting the Blue Jays and Mariners for the White Sox to make your point. 

 

OK... The Yankees were 3-4 against the White Sox, which doesn't speak well for the Yankees, and it should also be pointed out that the Yankees went 13-13 against the WEAK WEAK AL Central. 

 

However, this isn't your point. Your point is that you believe the Twins have the worst rotation out of Yankees, Rays, Red Sox, Twins, Indians, Astros, A's and Rangers.

 

You could be right but you are going to have to try something else in order to slide it past us.:)

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#38 Vanimal46

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 08:37 PM

If Graterol pitches well... He will be fine. He will control his fate through performance. The front offices around the league will determine his value ultimately and if he pitches well he will be fine.

However, of course it took a toll on the kid.

He's famous now. Pulled out of the darkness and branded fragile for all to see. The press and fan base will play the fragile card every time he hits the DL. Yes, players need to learn to ignore this stuff because it's always out there but this turns the amp up to 11. The louder the amp, the harder it is to not hear it.

If he pitches well... he will be fine. But, I won't minimize the damage done.


It’s sad, RB. You’re right and this all happened out of his control. He didn’t ask to be traded, nor did he ever want leaked information his medical report, whatever it contained, that caused Bloom to get cold feet...
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#39 cardsfan

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 08:42 PM

The 5 worst records in the AL:
Tigers
Orioles
Royals
Blue Jays
Mariners

Against those 5 teams:
Twins were 43-15
Yankees were 42-16

If you insist on substituting the Blue Jays and Mariners for the White Sox to make your point.

OK... The Yankees were 3-4 against the White Sox, which doesn't speak well for the Yankees, and it should also be pointed out that the Yankees went 13-13 against the WEAK WEAK AL Central.

However, this isn't your point. Your point is that you believe the Twins have the worst rotation out of Yankees, Rays, Red Sox, Twins, Indians, Astros, A's and Rangers.

You could be right but you are going to have to try something else in order to slide it past us. :)

The Rangers added Corey Kluber and your former pitcher Kyle Gibson. I don't think Kluber is finished as he turns 34 in April.

I'm not entirely sold on Pineda as he accidentally swallowed a masking agent. He was recovering from an arm injury which effected his 2017 season and he missed all of 2018. His 2016 season for the Yankees was bad.

And I don't think you can count on the worst SP in the NL for 3 years and last year in mid-August his ERA was 5.5. The last month he was pitching every 6 days and he vastly improved. Took years to do so. And an experimental procedure on 40 year Rich Hill who will need sometime to heal and stretch his arm?

Minors need to keep producing a starting pitcher one or more a year.

The Rangers won only 78 last year so they were allowing more runs than giving up.

#40 Riverbrian

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 08:49 PM

 

The Rangers added Corey Kluber and your former pitcher Kyle Gibson. I don't think Kluber is finished as he turns 34 in April.

I'm not entirely sold on Pineda as he accidentally swallowed a masking agent. He was recovering from an arm injury which effected his 2017 season and he missed all of 2018. His 2016 season for the Yankees was bad.

And I don't think you can count on the worst SP in the NL for 3 years and last year in mid-August his ERA was 5.5. The last month he was pitching every 6 days and he vastly improved. Took years to do so. And an experimental procedure on 40 year Rich Hill who will need sometime to heal and stretch his arm?

Minors need to keep producing a starting pitcher one or more a year.

 

And the Rays only have 3 starters.

 

Here's the deal... I'm not the type to drown in subjective opinions. I won't agree or disagree with your opinion.  

 

Personally, I'm not counting on anybody's pitching until the pitching can be counted. I'll know more as the season progresses.:)

 

I just happened to disagree with your original methodology. 

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