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Twins beat Berrios at arb hearing

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#21 Number3

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 08:22 AM

So now, over a pittance in today's market, Berrios's motivation will be simply to enhance his own personal worth to another team instead of helping the Twins try to win another Central title. Mixed emotions is never a good thing. $375K is expense money. Twins, please revisit this and pay your All Star even if it was as a replacement.


#22 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 08:23 AM

 

Not a good sign. Berrios is a goner after arbitration I think.

 

Maybe, but not because of this.

 

If the Twins had caved in to Berrios, they'd have 29 other owners to answer to, 29 other owners who have NEVER caved in on this same situation.

 

Berrios and his agent know that it's not personal, and they've both said exactly that.

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#23 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 08:28 AM

 

Yeah, the respective numbers we saw are the type where usually the two sides nearly fall over each other to be the first to say "meh, just split the difference?" The fact this didn't happen makes me assume there is some underlying reason, one we would find disquieting if we knew.

 

I know 375K doesn't sound like much in terms of baseball salaries, but what Berrios was asking for would have been the second highest amount ever won, let alone offered, for a pitcher of his service time. The rest of the league would have flayed the Twins had they broken the mold. A mold that has remained the same and favorable to the owners for almost 15 years. 

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#24 twinsnorth49

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 08:33 AM

So now, over a pittance in today's market, Berrios's motivation will be simply to enhance his own personal worth to another team instead of helping the Twins try to win another Central title. Mixed emotions is never a good thing. $375K is expense money. Twins, please revisit this and pay your All Star even if it was as a replacement.

Berrios’s motivation will be to enhance his own value, period. If he accomplishes that it will help the Twins win another AL Central, they kind of go together.
To think the Twins wouldn’t be one of the teams who he increases his value with, and not sign with them if their offer is fair to him, doesn’t make much sense. The Twins have the luxury of getting ahead of the process, other teams don’t.

#25 SomeGuy

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 08:37 AM

 

Eh...

Teams and arb eligible players settle all the time. When was the last Twins hearing? What was so special about THIS one?

$375k isnt resetting the arb market much.

The last hearing I believe was 2018 with Kyle Gibson over 350k (which they also won).


#26 redstorm

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 08:39 AM

FWIW

Dan Hayes reported that the Twins wanted to settle, but the Berrios side pushed because it would benefit players in future cases.

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#27 USAFChief

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 08:44 AM

 

I know 375K doesn't sound like much in terms of baseball salaries, but what Berrios was asking for would have been the second highest amount ever won, let alone offered, for a pitcher of his service time. The rest of the league would have flayed the Twins had they broken the mold. A mold that has remained the same and favorable to the owners for almost 15 years. 

First, It wouldn't even have been precedent setting...by your own statement it would have been the 2nd most for his service time.

 

Second, arb salaries have been creeping up forever, just like other MLB salaries. 

 

Third, a difference of $375K can't, by definition, in relation to today's MLB salary structure, "break" any mold. It's relatively minor creep. 

 

Fourth, in light of the above three items, I highly doubt MLB owners would have "flayed" the Twins for settling, but even if they did, so what? What were they gonna do, not invite the Pohlad's to next winter's owners meetings?

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#28 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 08:46 AM

 

FWIW

Dan Hayes reported that the Twins wanted to settle, but the Berrios side pushed because it would benefit players in future cases.

 

That could be good news for an extension then. If Berrios goal with arbitration was just to try to help future players, now that the process is over he may be ready to talk.

 

On the other hand, it sounds a bit like Mookie Betts who always wanted to push the envelope on arbitration and never had interest in an extension because he was looking forward to free agency. If so, not much the Twins can do about that. I'd just be nice to know ahead of time.

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#29 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 08:50 AM

 

First, It wouldn't even have been precedent setting...by your own statement it would have been the 2nd most for his service time.

 

Second, arb salaries have been creeping up forever, just like other MLB salaries. 

 

Third, a difference of $375K can't, by definition, in relation to today's MLB salary structure, "break" any mold. It's relatively minor creep. 

 

Fourth, in light of the above three items, I highly doubt MLB owners would have "flayed" the Twins for settling, but even if they did, so what? What were they gonna do, not invite the Pohlad's to next winter's owners meetings?

 

Dontrelle Willis 4.35M arbitration figure from 2006 was only broken once, when Keuchel won the Cy Young award. You really think the rest of the league is going to be fine if the Twins break tradition and roll over? It may still be a token amount, but it would be a big precedent to set and everybody would have to pay more for their 1st year arb pitchers.

 

I'm not defending the practice by the way. This whole procedure is a dog and pony show put on by those cutting the checks so those checks can be smaller than they should. I'm just suggesting this is SOP and nobodies feelings are getting hurt here.


#30 wabene

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 09:07 AM

People, including myself once, were saying Sano wanted to play in NY and wouldn't sign. Just sayin.
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#31 Shaitan

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 09:24 AM

EVERYBODY PANIC!!

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#32 Doctor Gast

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 09:41 AM

W/ Donaldson`s negotiations, I thought he`d stay in Atlanta. I don`t know how close Atlanta`s offer was but he chose MN. because they offered the closest to what he thought he was worth. My observation is repeat all-stars tend to be proud & get their self worth from how much $ they are offered. It`s not so much about the $ but the affirmation of their worth thru $. 

 Like Berrios case it`s not about the $,I think it shows he`s not happy here, if he was he would have accepted what they offered & signed an extension


#33 spycake

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 09:50 AM

 

People, including myself once, were saying Sano wanted to play in NY and wouldn't sign. Just sayin.

Of course, that was before Sano basically had a lost season in 2018, and missed more time and ultimately played his way off third base in 2019.

 

I'm sure Berrios would re-calibrate his contract expectations if he suffers a similar fate, but we probably wouldn't want that outcome from a performance standpoint!

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#34 spycake

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 09:59 AM

 

I know 375K doesn't sound like much in terms of baseball salaries, but what Berrios was asking for would have been the second highest amount ever won, let alone offered, for a pitcher of his service time. The rest of the league would have flayed the Twins had they broken the mold. A mold that has remained the same and favorable to the owners for almost 15 years. 

That "record" is so weird, though.

 

Nola had the same service time last winter and MLBTR projected him at $6.6 mil, and he signed an extension which essentially paid him $6 mil for 2019 ($4 mil salary, $2 mil signing bonus).

 

Severino had *less* service time last winter (super-2) and MLBTR projected him at $5.1 mil. He actually got to the point of filing for arbitration, and would have received no less than $4.4 mil, but settled on an extension instead that again paid him $6 mil in 2019 ($4 mil salary, $2 mil bonus).

 

And that's just the two most recent examples, off the top of my head. Does the $375k gap over Berrios really matter to anyone? I think your dog-and-pony show comment was correct!


#35 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 10:05 AM

 

That "record" is so weird, though.

 

Nola had the same service time last winter and MLBTR projected him at $6.6 mil, and he signed an extension which essentially paid him $6 mil for 2019 ($4 mil salary, $2 mil signing bonus).

 

Severino had *less* service time last winter (super-2) and MLBTR projected him at $5.1 mil. He actually got to the point of filing for arbitration, and would have received no less than $4.4 mil, but settled on an extension instead that again paid him $6 mil in 2019 ($4 mil salary, $2 mil bonus).

 

And that's just the two most recent examples, off the top of my head. Does the $375k gap over Berrios really matter to anyone? I think your dog-and-pony show comment was correct!

 

Yeah both of those guys went the extension route, which I assume we'd all like around here. Hopefully that's still on the table and as noted above, Berrios was looking to go to arbitration simply in an attempt to help out future pitchers.


#36 spycake

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 10:12 AM

 

Yeah both of those guys went the extension route, which I assume we'd all like around here. Hopefully that's still on the table and as noted above, Berrios was looking to go to arbitration simply in an attempt to help out future pitchers.

I think the degree to which it helps any future pitchers is getting overstated. At best, Berrios winning maybe would have made it easier for next year's Mike Clevinger to settle for $4.3 mil instead of $4.1. But frankly, if the Yankees already filed at $4.4 mil for Severino last winter, to say nothing of Nola and others, I'm not sure that future pitcher would have needed the Berrios precedent to do that anyway.

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#37 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 10:20 AM

 

I think the degree to which it helps any future pitchers is getting overstated. At best, Berrios winning maybe would have made it easier for next year's Mike Clevinger to settle for $4.3 mil instead of $4.1. But frankly, if the Yankees already filed at $4.4 mil for Severino last winter, to say nothing of Nola and others, I'm not sure that future pitcher would have needed the Berrios precedent to do that anyway.

 

Maybe, do we know if figures for Severino and/or Nola were ever disclosed? I'm not an expert on the process, but it seems to me that the dollar amounts aren't the main point of contention, the impetus for the players wanting changes is the fact that the players hardly ever win. Berrios winning arbitration while asking for what is viewed as the "ceiling" probably would have been a bigger deal than the actual dollar amount.


#38 spycake

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 10:34 AM

 

Maybe, do we know if figures for Severino and/or Nola were ever disclosed?

Yes for Severino. He filed at $5.25 mil, and the Yankees at $4.4 mil, before they settled on an extension last February. And Severino had less service time then (as a "super 2"), compared to Berrios now.

 

No to Nola (he signed his extension before arb figures were exchanged), but if there was enough public evidence at that time for MLBTR to give him an estimate of $6.6 mil, then I'd guess there would also be enough for future pitchers to look for $4.3 instead of $4.1 or whatever, regardless of Berrios.

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#39 USAFChief

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 11:37 AM

The whole "precedent" rationale is weak at best. Regardless, taking Berrios to arb over$375K, whether over "precedent" or not, is still, IMO, penny wise and pound foolish.

 

 

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#40 Rosterman

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 02:51 PM

So, going forward...do we tear this up and offer Berrios $45 for four years (including this season) and a fifth season option of how much?

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