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Is Marwin Gonzalez a lock to make the roster?

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#41 SQUIRREL

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 09:31 AM

 

I agree that cheating by using PEDs and cheating by using illegal means to know what pitch is coming are not exactly the same, but both are against fair play. Marwin hasn't been convicted or charged with anything yet and even if he was, he played last year without such aid (presumably) and was the player he was. Some in this thread have said essentially "throw the bum out" because they assume he cheated in 2017. If so, do they have the same opinion on those players who were suspended for PED (and masking agent) use? 

 

If we are only discussing the merits of Marwin Gonzalez the player, of course he belongs on a 26-man roster and he'll most likely be a vital cog on a good team. 

 

If he is a disruption for the team (I really doubt this), that would be another matter altogether. The whole Astros Cheating Scandal has not been divulged. If it is much, much worse the league will have to take further action. If it stops where it is, the organization and it's players (including Marwin Gonzalez) will have a stain on them.

 

Yes, cheating is cheating. But the difference isn't in how they cheated, the difference is Polanco, Cruz and Pineda faced penalties. Marwin has not. That's the difference. Will he? Don't knowyet. Perhaps the complete investigation isn't over yet, so, it's a wait and see as to what will happen. But yeah, until which time, the 'throw the bum out' type comments I think are a bit ... one-sided. Still, players involved should be fined in some manner. So far, other than the world knowing they cheated, they have still reaped the rewards of 'winning' without penalty. That's what bothers me. So, no, it's not the same.

 

That said, I agree, Marwin will remain on the team and should. I don't think it's a discussion, actually.

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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

#42 Cody Pirkl

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 09:47 AM

 

Well ... I'm gonna say this again when I did a couple of posts ago. There is a huge difference there. Polanco, Pineda, Cruz were caught and punished according to MLB rules. They paid a price for what they did and 'served their time.' They were named publicly and were fined. Some could argue it wasn't enough, but they faced some form of punishment. Gonzalez? What was his punishment? MLB has levied nothing against him nor have I heard any kind of acknowledgement from him. It's likely that acknowledgement will come privately, if at all, and perhaps already has. Or maybe the full investigation needs to be completed before anyone says anything. Don't know. But MLB has done nothing so far to any players involved when it was the players who were just as complicit as those who have already been suspended a year. I agree, you can't suspend an entire team just before the season starts, but ... what have these guys faced? They aren't getting their championships vacated. So ... there's really a difference here. Maybe they should all be fined any amount of money they received for winning the WS. And turn in their rings. The title will still be theirs in the record books, with an asterisk, but everything else should be returned as a fine. Of course, we haven't heard how widespread this is, yet. But there is a difference between the players named.

 

That said, yes, Marwin will be on the team and will not be cut. But I do wish he were facing some kind of penalty for cheating, as the others did.

That's completely fair, I agree that he should be punished. I guess just in terms of morality though, they all made decisions to try to get a leg up on the competition in a way that breaks the rules. That doesn't really change based on whether or not they were punished. 

 

What he did was scummy, but for the people saying the Twins should cut him because of it? Losing his value and paying his salary to not play for us doesn't punish anybody but the Twins. 


#43 Linus

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 09:48 AM

He’s a lock unless he is traded which they should absolutely attempt to do. What he can do is covered in this lineup

#44 mnfireman

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 10:04 AM

I think he makes the team simply because injuries happen and he has position versatility. Donaldson and Sano both have a history of lower body injury issues, and Polanco is coming off of ankle surgery. Buxton, Rosario and Kepler have all also missed time due to injury. 

 

I don't think he can be packaged in a trade because of the Astro's scandal, but if he can be added as a throw-in for starting pitching, I think the team should do it.

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#45 Diesel

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 10:09 AM

It’s sort of weird that the position player roster seems pretty much set already, barring injuries or trades

Garver, Sano, Arraez, Polanco, Donaldson, Kepler, Buxton Rosario, Cruz as the starters, then Adrianza, Gonzalez, Cave, and Avila as the 4 backups. There can only be 13 pitchers on the roster, and I fully expect Baldelli to have an 8 man bullpen....

#46 birdwatcher

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 10:36 AM

Frankly, I don't think most of these professional athletes are even capable of some type of moral outrage, even when a fellow player's cheating has directly harmed them, like Pineda's cheating most certainly did.

 

It speaks volumes that a team could implement a systematic scheme known to each and every player to cheat their fellow players in as direct a manner as the Asterisks did in 2017, and yet, the needle on not one single player's moral compass spun out of control? Pathetic.

 

As I recall, there were photos leading up to the postseason game last year where Marwin Gonzales held up a sign intended to let Pineda know that he was with the team in spirit. Such a caring and terrific team player, right? I mean, how ironic is THAT? A coincidence? Or was it a form of empathy?

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#47 nicksaviking

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 10:45 AM

 

Frankly, I don't think most of these professional athletes are even capable of some type of moral outrage, even when a fellow player's cheating has directly harmed them, like Pineda's cheating most certainly did.

 

It speaks volumes that a team could implement a systematic scheme to cheat their fellow players in as direct a manner as the Asterisks did in 2017, and yet, the needle on not one single player's moral compass spun out of control? Pathetic.

 

As I recall, there were photos leading up to the postseason game last year where Marwin Gonzales held up a sign intended to let Pineda know that he was with the team in spirit...I mean, how ironic is THAT? A coincidence?

 

Well Mike Fiers was the one who opened this whole can of worms. I wouldn't go so far as to say every player's moral compass is broken. It's possible that every other single Astro was gung-ho about cheating, but I think it's just as likely that there were players who were uncomfortable with the scheme but lacked the guts to speak out. I mean, if the manager himself didn't like it but didn't have the pull to stop it, I can't imagine a young guy having the steel to step up to Carlos Beltran, who surely was a living legend to most of those guys. Which really is a terrible aspect of this whole situation; there were likely young players who were new to the majors learning and taking notes from the veterans who gave them the impression that this is just how things were done.


#48 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 11:17 AM

why all the hate? He is not overpaid for his production. He's incredibly versatile. He's guaranteed for 2 more seasons.

 

Is he a lock? Yes. 

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#49 jkcarew

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 11:17 AM

 

Altuve and Stringer aren't 93 OPS+ utility players.

And Altuve and Stringer can't play 5-6 different defensive positions.

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#50 jkcarew

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 11:26 AM

His versatility and near-league average offense make him a lock.

 

The fact that there is one extra active roster spot to work with this year makes him slightly LESS of a lock...but still basically a lock.

 

What about our other 'cheaters'? Polanco is really bad defensively, and we have a prospect coming in Gordon, and a better one on the way in Lewis. Meanwhile, Pineda is...Pineda. Some of the responses to the original post beg the question.


#51 Craig Arko

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 11:29 AM

A few helpful terms.

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Due_process

 

https://en.wikipedia...on_of_innocence

 

https://en.wikipedia...Double_jeopardy

Update your priors.


#52 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 12:04 PM

A few helpful terms.
 
https://en.wikipedia...iki/Due_process
 
https://en.wikipedia...on_of_innocence
 
https://en.wikipedia...Double_jeopardy

Honest question.

Have you watched any of the game video?
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#53 Craig Arko

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 12:10 PM

 

Honest question.

Have you watched any of the game video?

Honest answer. Nope.

 

But the thread has meandered into a lot of different places, yes?

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Update your priors.


#54 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 12:23 PM

Honest answer. Nope.
 
But the thread has meandered into a lot of different places, yes?

I think the thread has stayed on track. Most posters are confident that Marwin is a lock to be on this team. I am not.

And I’ll be honest—I watched three or four clips, and Marwin is definitely a part of this. What is to be done about it, is yet to be seen.
He measured the achievements of others by what they had accomplished, asking of them that they measure him by what he envisaged or planned.
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#55 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 12:35 PM

A few helpful terms.

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Due_process

https://en.wikipedia...on_of_innocence

https://en.wikipedia...Double_jeopardy


Those are legal terms.
Marwin is entitled to all of those protections if he's ever investigated or charged by the government.

A message board is not a court of law.

#56 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 12:36 PM

People in this thread keep suggesting that there is a possibility that some sort of punishment could be coming later.

The league can't punish any of the players, they gave them full immunity.
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#57 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 12:41 PM

There is absolutely no way he's not on the roster this season. You don't have to like it, but he could be starting for a good amount of MLB teams and he showed how valuable he is last season when he filled in everywhere for injuries. I get that he cheated with the Astros in 2017, but he's not cheating now. It's pretty difficult to forgive guys like Polanco, Cruz, etc. for their use of banned substances and turn around and say "get this guy off my team" for breaking the rules in a different way.


Name the good amount of teams that would have a 93 OPS+ player starting at a corner position?

Forgiveness comes after contrition and punishment.

I think forgiveness is important, but for me personally, I have to hear an acknowledgement and apology before I can consider it.
And that includes the PED players that say "I didn't know I was taking it..." I can't forgive those players either.

#58 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 12:43 PM

And Altuve and Stringer can't play 5-6 different defensive positions.


I don't see how the ability to put a poor hitter in multiple positions is much of an asset.

#59 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 12:46 PM

His versatility and near-league average offense make him a lock.

The fact that there is one extra active roster spot to work with this year makes him slightly LESS of a lock...but still basically a lock.

What about our other 'cheaters'? Polanco is really bad defensively, and we have a prospect coming in Gordon, and a better one on the way in Lewis. Meanwhile, Pineda is...Pineda. Some of the responses to the original post beg the question.


If 2019 Marwin is the player were going to see going forward, that's not anywhere near league average offense.
He was 93 OPS+ last year.
That, in itself is well below league average. When factoring in that he's a corner player, and league average OPS includes positions like catcher, shortstop, and centerfield, it's borderline unacceptable.

#60 Cody Pirkl

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 01:06 PM

 

Name the good amount of teams that would have a 93 OPS+ player starting at a corner position?

Forgiveness comes after contrition and punishment.

I think forgiveness is important, but for me personally, I have to hear an acknowledgement and apology before I can consider it.
And that includes the PED players that say "I didn't know I was taking it..." I can't forgive those players either.

He can play pretty much anywhere but center, catcher, and probably shortstop. He's a plus defender at most of them too. He's a valuable player and was slotted to be on the opening day lineup card for our stacked roster before we signed Donaldson. He's one of the most versatile players in baseball and makes just about any team better for being on their roster. 

 

You don't have to buy his jersey, I'm not a fan of his either. But the Twins aren't going to pay a valuable player $9m to not play for them. The fact of the matter is players do a whole lot worse than steal signs and keep their jobs. That's not right, but that's the way the game is. Finding out he cheated doesn't make him any less valuable to the team as most people seem to be arguing. He's going to be on the roster and that's a good thing for our chances to win.

 

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