Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Photo

Marwin Gonzalez, the Twins, and How the Astros Cheated Minnesota

minnesota twins houston astros marwin gonzalez phil hughes jose berrios
  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#21 TFRazor

TFRazor

    Who's on first?

  • Member
  • 736 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 09:44 AM

 

Here’s a “fun” question no one is asking: what if the Twins hitting a MLB record of home runs the first year Marwin is in town isn’t just a coincidence?

Well I wish we would've cheated better when we got our butts handed to us in the playoffs. This is silly. If you have any sort of evidence that there was cheating by the Twins last year then please share. Are you saying the Yankees were cheating as well? After all, we were trading the HR lead with them right up to the end. If all it takes is banging on a trashcan then the Astros should've been leading. The reason no one is asking that "fun" question is that until there's some sort of evidence that cheating occurred it's not based in reality and therefore a useless mind experiment.

  • woolywoolhouse and mnfarmer like this

#22 Dome Dogg

Dome Dogg

    Cedar Rapids Kernels

  • Member
  • 118 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 10:23 AM

 

I guess I don't see the correlation? The Twins aren't cheating, and he isn't using PEDs, so what advantage would he bring?

My point is that we simply don't know. Obviously I don't have any information implicating the Twins, but I am guessing you don't have information proving for sure they weren't.

 

"Kid, don't you think there's a problem when you get that excited over a seeing-eye single?"


#23 Dome Dogg

Dome Dogg

    Cedar Rapids Kernels

  • Member
  • 118 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 10:28 AM

 

Well I wish we would've cheated better when we got our butts handed to us in the playoffs. This is silly. If you have any sort of evidence that there was cheating by the Twins last year then please share. Are you saying the Yankees were cheating as well? After all, we were trading the HR lead with them right up to the end. If all it takes is banging on a trashcan then the Astros should've been leading. The reason no one is asking that "fun" question is that until there's some sort of evidence that cheating occurred it's not based in reality and therefore a useless mind experiment.

 

Per NBC Sports "First, let’s be 100 percent clear about something: the Astros and the Red Sox were not — not by a long shot — the only teams stealing signs. To suggest that they were is to live in fantasyland. Tom Verducci reported the other day that the investigation of the Astros led to at least seven or eight other teams being mentioned. Last night Michael Baumann of The Ringer linked to stories over the past couple of months in which sources said they believed that the Diamondbacks, Indians, Rangers, Cubs, Blue Jays, Nationals and Brewers have engaged in sign-stealing shenanigans as well." 

 

I am not saying that the Twins cheated. Clearly, I am just some guy that doesn't have inside information. I just think it's interesting that no one has even thought that it was a possibility. 

  • h2oface and Longdistancetwins like this

"Kid, don't you think there's a problem when you get that excited over a seeing-eye single?"


#24 Dome Dogg

Dome Dogg

    Cedar Rapids Kernels

  • Member
  • 118 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 10:31 AM

 

An interesting note before saying that Marwins 2017 was solely a result of cheating, we know that the trashcan usage began mid season. Below are Marwin's splits for 2017.

 

1st half .308/.391/.576, wRC+ 160, BABIP .338

2nd half .299/.363/.485, wRC+ 128, BABIP .348

 

May was by far his best month with an insane .382/.461/.737, wRC+ 217

 

https://www.houstonc...ut-14972308.php

He also hit much better on the road in 2017. 

"Kid, don't you think there's a problem when you get that excited over a seeing-eye single?"


#25 TFRazor

TFRazor

    Who's on first?

  • Member
  • 736 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 10:53 AM

 

Per NBC Sports "First, let’s be 100 percent clear about something: the Astros and the Red Sox were not — not by a long shot — the only teams stealing signs. To suggest that they were is to live in fantasyland. Tom Verducci reported the other day that the investigation of the Astros led to at least seven or eight other teams being mentioned. Last night Michael Baumann of The Ringer linked to stories over the past couple of months in which sources said they believed that the Diamondbacks, Indians, Rangers, Cubs, Blue Jays, Nationals and Brewers have engaged in sign-stealing shenanigans as well." 

 

I am not saying that the Twins cheated. Clearly, I am just some guy that doesn't have inside information. I just think it's interesting that no one has even thought that it was a possibility. 

I don't think it's fair to say that no one has thought of the possibility. I'm sure it's crossed someone's mind. The point is that two months into the biggest scandal in MLB since PEDs, with nearly 1/3 of the teams in the league to be mentioned as at least "under suspicion", there hasn't been a whiff of the Twins being involved. Until that happens, it's a thought experiment. It's a question without any basis in known facts.

  • MN_ExPat likes this

#26 mnfarmer

mnfarmer

    Elizabethton Twins

  • Member
  • 1 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 11:06 AM

 


Here’s a “fun” question no one is asking: what if the Twins hitting a MLB record of home runs the first year Marwin is in town isn’t just a coincidence?

Look at how many bombas the twins hit at home (137) and how many they hit on the road (170) with all due respect, Your "fun" question is ultimately a "dumb" question.

  • gagu and TFRazor like this

#27 jkcarew

jkcarew

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,807 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 11:40 AM

The game after the Berrios game, Santana, Rogers, and Kintzler held the Astros to 2 runs. The game after that our favorite whipping boy, Kyle Gibson held his own.

 

Meanwhile, when the Astros's visited Target Field that year, sans garbage can, they hung 40 runs on the Twins in 3 games...including 9 base-runners and 4 runs in 5 innings to hang another loss on Berrios.

 

I'm all for consequences (although, 'punishment' comes from the league, not the Twins). They created an advantage by willfully, and in an organized fashion, doing something against the rules. They cheated. But there is simply not much in the data to say that it was particularly effective or sustained....despite what some will try to do by cherry-picking specific at-bats and games.

  • h2oface likes this

#28 KirbyDome89

KirbyDome89

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,965 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 11:40 AM

Brooks initially posted it, but by the logic used here didn't the Twins cheat the entire league last year, the AL Central in particular, by riding Pineda's hot second half to a division title? 

 

As far as links to MN and cheating, it's a fallacy to prove a negative. That doesn't mean the Twins are entirely innocent here. Most fan bases would be better off reserving judgement. It's entirely possible all of this is more widespread, or that using video to gain an advantage runs much deeper than what is currently being reported. We can name individual players who were caught using PEDs during the 90s/early 00s, but we also know the problem went well beyond those individuals. While MLB tries to clean up their house, they very well could be content to let Houston and Boston bear the brunt of public scrutiny. 

  • gagu likes this

#29 SomeGuy

SomeGuy

    Ft Myers Miracle

  • Member
  • 444 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 11:42 AM

 

Look at how many bombas the twins hit at home (137) and how many they hit on the road (170) with all due respect, Your "fun" question is ultimately a "dumb" question.

Unless the method used wasn't exclusive to home games....

 

The possibility presented by the electronic device conspiracy would pretty much enable anyone to do this anywhere. You could have someone in the stands sending signals directly to the batter etc.

 

There is nothing to implicate the Twins but like PEDs it can be fair to wonder about things outside the known violations.

  • Dome Dogg likes this

#30 blindeke

blindeke

    Member

  • Member
  • 530 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 11:54 AM

 

Watching these Astros/Twins games is infuriating. I'd urge you to click through and watch some of the games. (Links are on the site.)

 

Astros players cheating, scoring, then high-fiving as if they'd just done it all themselves. The Twins pitchers getting mauled and looking depressed. 

 

It's much, much easier to hit well when you literally know what pitch is coming. Completely unfair and dishonest, and really pulls the rug out from baseball as an enjoyable and competitive sport.

 

Here's the most egregious inning from the most egregious game: https://youtu.be/7FYj9_5sQk4

  • woolywoolhouse likes this

#31 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Member
  • 31,629 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 11:56 AM

 

I don't think this will have any effect on Gonzalez's relationship with his teammates. There are guys in that clubhouse who have been suspended for PEDs. They got to know Gonzalez all of last year. I may be wrong and it may cause issues, I will just be shocked. 

 

true, imo. Players are more than willing to cheat to win. 

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#32 woolywoolhouse

woolywoolhouse

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • 343 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 12:00 PM

 

Here's the most egregious inning from the most egregious game: https://youtu.be/7FYj9_5sQk4

 

Current Astro Ryan Pressly came in to pitch in the 4th for the Twins. While he didn't give up any runs, Pressly still heard a lot of bangs during Beltran's at-bat (gave up a single) and then immediately hit Gurriel (who still heard a bang) with a pitch. (Announcers talked about how frustrated Pressly was, which is likely an understatement.) After that, with a runner on second, Pressly and Castro switched up the signals, and there were no more bangs after that. 

 

Love to hear from Ryan Pressly on what it was like pitching against his future team while they cheated.

  • birdwatcher, blindeke, gagu and 1 other like this

 

SblamiVvl-SFSfi_8yN5GGvjJk0=.gif


#33 Dome Dogg

Dome Dogg

    Cedar Rapids Kernels

  • Member
  • 118 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 12:01 PM

 

Look at how many bombas the twins hit at home (137) and how many they hit on the road (170) with all due respect, Your "fun" question is ultimately a "dumb" question.

Marwin hit better on the road in 2017 than at home. Must not have cheated. 

"Kid, don't you think there's a problem when you get that excited over a seeing-eye single?"


#34 birdwatcher

birdwatcher

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 4,449 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 12:48 PM

 

My guess: for the first few weeks of the 2020 season, Marwin is going to hear garbage can banging when he comes to the plate from some unhappy fans in the crowd.

My personal wish is that every time the Astros go on the road, the home team situates the team mascot on top of the home dugout during the top of the order, and when the home team pitcher goes into the windup, the mascot gives the signal for the fans to yell "BANG BANG" in unison. Until the league makes them stop, because, you know, that's cheating.

  • woolywoolhouse likes this

#35 Darius

Darius

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,774 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 03:02 PM

Here’s a “fun” question no one is asking: what if the Twins hitting a MLB record of home runs the first year Marwin is in town isn’t just a coincidence?


I asked that question right after shortly after the scandal broke on this very website.
  • TFRazor likes this

#36 SomeGuy

SomeGuy

    Ft Myers Miracle

  • Member
  • 444 posts

Posted 30 January 2020 - 04:11 PM

 

I wonder how long Marwin has with the Twins. This has to affect how he is regarded by his teammates, no? While I am personally not someone who really cares about sign stealing, and feels the method is not important, if the goal/result is the same...... it is surely not the majority opinion, nor MLBs, and certainly not the players. This has to make him a tainted person in the clubhouse. I don't see how it can be good for "chemistry".

I would think Mike Fiers is the one who will lose clubhouse credibility from it. I wouldn't tell him any secrets if he was my teammate.

 

He broke Omerta.


#37 h2oface

h2oface

    Lifelong since '61

  • Member
  • 4,831 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 30 January 2020 - 06:12 PM

 

I would think Mike Fiers is the one who will lose clubhouse credibility from it. I wouldn't tell him any secrets if he was my teammate.

 

He broke Omerta.

 

The bad guy is the honest one. This is the zeitgeist we live in. The old "have my back" even if I am the dishonest one - and you are a good teammate.

  • adorduan, Hosken Bombo Disco, Alex Schieferdecker and 1 other like this

#38 KirbyDome89

KirbyDome89

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,965 posts

Posted 01 February 2020 - 03:05 PM

 

The bad guy is the honest one. This is the zeitgeist we live in. The old "have my back" even if I am the dishonest one - and you are a good teammate.

Fiers blowing the whistle on his old team 2 years later doesn't place him in a category above anybody else on that squad; i.e. he isn't the "good guy," either. IMO his motivation for bringing the story to light is fairly questionable. Altruism wouldn't be my first guess as to why he started talking.


#39 h2oface

h2oface

    Lifelong since '61

  • Member
  • 4,831 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 01 February 2020 - 05:44 PM

 

Fiers blowing the whistle on his old team 2 years later doesn't place him in a category above anybody else on that squad; i.e. he isn't the "good guy," either. IMO his motivation for bringing the story to light is fairly questionable. Altruism wouldn't be my first guess as to why he started talking.

 

I don't know his motive, no will I pretend to. But I am a huge fan of the late Jim Bouton and Ball Four. Truth is truth, no matter the motive, anyway. I will not villianize the whistleblower. He could have been the guy (as a pitcher, he didn't benefit at all) that was forced by peer pressure to assimilate into the team, and just stay silent. But after all the lies, and he didn't need to be part of the team, he spoke up. Good for him. Good for the good cop that doesn't buy into the crooked code blue. And I am one that doesn't care at all about sign stealing, and thinks it is up to the defense to figure out how to keep the signs secret, regardless of how they are stolen.


#40 Linus

Linus

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 2,391 posts

Posted 01 February 2020 - 10:03 PM

The only part I regret is that we have Gonzalez instead of Eddy Escobar.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: minnesota twins, houston astros, marwin gonzalez, phil hughes, jose berrios