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Front Page: Looking Way Ahead: Who Needs to be Added to the 40-Man Roster... in November

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#41 Seth Stohs

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 08:28 PM

 

Keep in mind that Garver was also a terrible catcher. Was he held back because of Turner or was he held back because he was a terrible catcher?

 

I think the latter... 

 

To Garver's credit, he always had a great attitude about it. He was always confident, and never complained. He always had a self-deprecation. On his Twitter bio, he would write "Minnesota Twins non-prospect." We used to joke about that too.

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#42 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 08:32 PM

 

I think the latter... 

 

To Garver's credit, he always had a great attitude about it. He was always confident, and never complained. He always had a self-deprecation. On his Twitter bio, he would write "Minnesota Twins non-prospect." We used to joke about that too.

I also believe the latter.

 

And me saying he was a terrible catcher isn't some knock on Garver, it's just the reality of the situation at the time. People clamored to get him to Minnesota and when he arrived, it was BRUTAL watching him catch. His glove darted all over the place, he didn't block balls well, he was just fundamentally bad at catching.

 

On the flip side of that coin, massive kudos to Mitch for recognizing those deficiencies and working so bloody hard to fix them.

 

But three years ago, no one would have had the ability to know he would not only be so willing to learn, or even so capable of learning, but that he'd work so hard to do it.

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#43 DocBauer

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 09:50 PM

Also, some would say Garver was thrust into full time duty in 2018 before he was ready, after Castro stopped playing on his injured knee.


Absolutely agree 100%.

Turner was no slouch as a prospect. And the previous FO decided to, mostly, stagger he and Garver rather than have them on the same roster. Turner was accepted as the better defensive option, and the higher selection, FWTW, even though he was less of a polished hitter.

Were Turner and Garver under the control of the current administration, even accepting their same draft selection status, which I have doubts about, I have to wonder if they wouldn't have pushed Garver faster and be would have possibly gained his MLB "sea legs" a year earlier and been more prepared in 2018 to take over for the injured Castro. Personally, I always felt he was held back somewhat.
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#44 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 10:08 PM

 

Perhaps the arguable consensus of the Front Office and TD staff and most posters and prospect ratings and projections and rate of promotion until Garver couldn't be denied, and they finally ...... finally got it? Who knows if Garver couldn't have been accelerated and here at least a year (or more) sooner (and nobody knows and can't know because it was never tried) without being held back behind "glove first/no bat" Turner all through the minors. That is what I mean by mistake, if I have to spell it out.

I'm going to ask you to back up a moment here because, if what I'm understanding you're saying, is that you're suggesting THIS front office made a mistake with Garver.

 

Is that what you're saying?

 

Because this front office inherited Garver after the 2016 season and had him in Minnesota later in the 2017 season, when he was atrocious behind the plate. Once he came to Minnesota in 2017, he never left again.

 

If you're saying this front office did something wrong, what exactly could they have done differently?

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#45 DocBauer

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 10:20 PM

I don't know if Rortvedt will get there first or if Jeffers will. Rortvedt was a half-season ahead of Jeffers coming into 2019. Hopefully Rortvedt is healthy and can stay healthy.


Yup, and a lot of times they get that information from talking to people with the Twins. Which is another reminder that the Twins love Jeffers. Rortvedt is fantastic (in my opinion and some others) at the throwing and blocking and that kind of stuff. Jeffers has had some really good framing numbers. The Twins are definitely promotingJeffers.


Hey! Look at me! I think I finally figured out how to multi-quote! LOL. Going to just be excited for myself for a moment because no matter how smart an individual I am, or pretend to be, or techno savy about certain things, I am just not a natural computer guy. So self kuddos to me. Lol

I like both comments equally. I just have a great, but feeling about Rotvedt. I have a soft place for catchers and feel they are vastly underrated. Mostly because they may be the hardest position to quantify. Everyone wants a great offensive catcher...rare as they may be...who also plays great defense. But how do you measure their defense? Is it SB %? Is it framing? Is it any of the current defensive analytics? A long time ago, even with game plannjng and sideline suggestion, an NFL QB used to call plays. Despite analytics and dugout calls, the catcher still has to call a game and have the trust of his pitcher to "work" a game together. How do you measure that sort of thing?

Rortvedt, right now, to me, is behind Jeffers due to age and bat, and because everything seems to indicate the Twins really like and believe in Jeffers. But being the current #2 in the system shouldn't diminish the ability and potential of Rortvedt as a viable, quality ML catcher with hit and power potential. Who knows how good he could yet be. But with Garver in the mix as well, I do wonder if there is room for all 3.

We talk about OF/1B/DH depth in the system, but I can't recall this much catching depth in the system for some time, if ever. A trade could be involved at some point. But this is another good problem to have.
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#46 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 10:28 PM

 

We talk about OF/1B/DH depth in the system, but I can't recall this much catching depth in the system for some time, if ever. A trade could be involved at some point. But this is another good problem to have.

OF/1B/DH depth is easy, catching depth is not.

 

And I don't think the Twins actually have enough catching depth to really think about trading someone unless the perfect deal arises to make them want to do it.

 

As for past catching depth, it's pretty hard to rival Mauer with Ramos in the minors. Garver may be good but he ain't Joe Mauer and while some of the prospects might be good, Ramos *at least* equalled them at the time.

 

Or, if you want to go back a few more years, Pierzynski in Minnesota with Mauer in the minors. That may have literally been the best catching depth in the history of MLB. We're talking about a guy in MLB with 20+ career WAR, followed by a guy with close to 50 career WAR.

 

Now that I think of it, the Twins have this weird ability to field some really nasty players at the ends of the field; centerfield and catcher.

How does a team field so many good/great players at those two positions over 40 years while sucking pretty hard at fielding even decent players at the other seven spots?

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#47 DocBauer

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 11:25 PM

OF/1B/DH depth is easy, catching depth is not.
 
And I don't think the Twins actually have enough catching depth to really think about trading someone unless the perfect deal arises to make them want to do it.
 
As for past catching depth, it's pretty hard to rival Mauer with Ramos in the minors. Garver may be good but he ain't Joe Mauer and while some of the prospects might be good, Ramos *at least* equalled them at the time.
 
Or, if you want to go back a few more years, Pierzynski in Minnesota with Mauer in the minors. That may have literally been the best catching depth in the history of MLB. We're talking about a guy in MLB with 20+ career WAR, followed by a guy with close to 50 career WAR.
 
Now that I think of it, the Twins have this weird ability to field some really nasty players at the ends of the field; centerfield and catcher.
How does a team field so many good/great players at those two positions over 40 years while sucking pretty hard at fielding even decent players at the other seven spots?


Now hold on for a second, Brock. I never mentioned CF. That is an entirely different topic. How far do you want to go back. Landreaux? Eisenreichm? Puckett? WHOLE different topic, which I would love to get in to.

But I was referencing catchers. I have not forgotten AJ or Ramos in any way, but you are also talking about ML career production. Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was speaking about youth and prospect depth. Where there was AJ, tnere was Mauer. Where there was Mauer there was Ramos. And each of these scenarios was what, 8-12yrs ago or so? I was thinking of depth overall. To have Garver in place, and a couple of such interesting and exciting young prospects so close is tantalizing to me.

How about we do a whole different conversation about the history of Twins CF prospects the past 20-30yrs plus? :)
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#48 h2oface

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 02:39 AM

 

Keep in mind that Garver was also a terrible catcher. Was he held back because of Turner or was he held back because he was a terrible catcher?

 

Interesting that Garver could be a Johnny Bench Award (college baseball's top catcher) finalist (1 of 3) in both 2012 and 2013, and runner up to Turner in 2013, it he was a terrible catcher. Try to stop him now, eh?

https://www.baseball...nch_award.shtml

 

No, this FO did not hold him back. The previous did, in my opinion. I know many did not appreciate Garver until recently. I read about it for years. I guess I still will.

 

I also think Jeffers is and should be ahead of Rortvedt (hence the original quick post), but it is great to have both near. Things can change in a wink with catchers.


#49 goulik

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:24 AM

Rortvedt is to Jeffers as Turner was to Garver.
No need to make the same mistake over and over.......


I strongly disagree. Rortvedt has had a consistently better stick than Turner and I don’t think Jeffers will ever be a hitter at Garvers level.

#50 goulik

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:40 AM

Hey! Look at me! I think I finally figured out how to multi-quote! LOL. Going to just be excited for myself for a moment because no matter how smart an individual I am, or pretend to be, or techno savy about certain things, I am just not a natural computer guy. So self kuddos to me. Lol
I like both comments equally. I just have a great, but feeling about Rotvedt. I have a soft place for catchers and feel they are vastly underrated. Mostly because they may be the hardest position to quantify. Everyone wants a great offensive catcher...rare as they may be...who also plays great defense. But how do you measure their defense? Is it SB %? Is it framing? Is it any of the current defensive analytics? A long time ago, even with game plannjng and sideline suggestion, an NFL QB used to call plays. Despite analytics and dugout calls, the catcher still has to call a game and have the trust of his pitcher to "work" a game together. How do you measure that sort of thing?
Rortvedt, right now, to me, is behind Jeffers due to age and bat, and because everything seems to indicate the Twins really like and believe in Jeffers. But being the current #2 in the system shouldn't diminish the ability and potential of Rortvedt as a viable, quality ML catcher with hit and power potential. Who knows how good he could yet be. But with Garver in the mix as well, I do wonder if there is room for all 3.
We talk about OF/1B/DH depth in the system, but I can't recall this much catching depth in the system for some time, if ever. A trade could be involved at some point. But this is another good problem to have.


3 things:
1) Can you teach me that new multi quote thingy you did? I’ve been struggling with that too.
2) I have a gut feeling about Rortvedt being a good MLB catcher some day. I’m not sure what a butt feeling is though (and you misspelled butt...)
3) I think your spot on with the rest of your comments. I believe part of The way to measure a catcher is to look at the pitchers success with various catchers.

#51 ashbury

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:57 AM

Hey! Look at me! I think I finally figured out how to multi-quote! LOL. Going to just be excited for myself for a moment because no matter how smart an individual I am, or pretend to be, or techno savy about certain things, I am just not a natural computer guy. So self kuddos to me. Lol

 

Hey! Look at me! I think I finally figured out how to multi-quote! LOL. Going to just be excited for myself for a moment because no matter how smart an individual I am, or pretend to be, or techno savy about certain things, I am just not a natural computer guy. So self kuddos to me. Lol

Kuddos, or kudos, or whatever, from me as well.

The actions of men are the best interpreters of their thoughts. -- John Locke


#52 ashbury

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 08:01 AM

1) Can you teach me that new multi quote thingy you did? I’ve been struggling with that too.

 

1) Can you teach me that new multi quote thingy you did? I’ve been struggling with that too.

  • View the first post you want to comment on
  • Click MultiQuote
  • View the second post you want to comment on
  • Click MultiQuote
  • Look at the bottom of the screen and click "Reply to 2 quoted post(s)"

That last button might be hidden by an ad at the bottom of the screen. Click the X button on the ad to remove it first.

 

Despite documentation somewhere that you can multiquote up to 3, I've never succeeded with more than 2.

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#53 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 08:07 AM

Interesting that Garver could be a Johnny Bench Award (college baseball's top catcher) finalist (1 of 3) in both 2012 and 2013, and runner up to Turner in 2013, it he was a terrible catcher. Try to stop him now, eh?

https://www.baseball...nch_award.shtml

No, this FO did not hold him back. The previous did, in my opinion. I know many did not appreciate Garver until recently. I read about it for years. I guess I still will.

I also think Jeffers is and should be ahead of Rortvedt (hence the original quick post), but it is great to have both near. Things can change in a wink with catchers.

Garver was the worst defensive catcher in baseball in 2018, if I recall correctly.

He was truly awful behind the plate when he arrived in Minnesota.

#54 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 08:35 AM

Interesting that Garver could be a Johnny Bench Award (college baseball's top catcher) finalist (1 of 3) in both 2012 and 2013, and runner up to Turner in 2013, it he was a terrible catcher. Try to stop him now, eh?

https://www.baseball...nch_award.shtml

No, this FO did not hold him back. The previous did, in my opinion. I know many did not appreciate Garver until recently. I read about it for years. I guess I still will.

I also think Jeffers is and should be ahead of Rortvedt (hence the original quick post), but it is great to have both near. Things can change in a wink with catchers.


The fact that Kyle Schwarber was also a finalist for this award tells me that it's not exclusively based on defense.

#55 Seth Stohs

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 11:05 AM

 

Hey! Look at me! I think I finally figured out how to multi-quote! LOL. Going to just be excited for myself for a moment because no matter how smart an individual I am, or pretend to be, or techno savy about certain things, I am just not a natural computer guy. So self kuddos to me. Lol

I like both comments equally. I just have a great, but feeling about Rotvedt. I have a soft place for catchers and feel they are vastly underrated. Mostly because they may be the hardest position to quantify. Everyone wants a great offensive catcher...rare as they may be...who also plays great defense. But how do you measure their defense? Is it SB %? Is it framing? Is it any of the current defensive analytics? A long time ago, even with game plannjng and sideline suggestion, an NFL QB used to call plays. Despite analytics and dugout calls, the catcher still has to call a game and have the trust of his pitcher to "work" a game together. How do you measure that sort of thing?

Rortvedt, right now, to me, is behind Jeffers due to age and bat, and because everything seems to indicate the Twins really like and believe in Jeffers. But being the current #2 in the system shouldn't diminish the ability and potential of Rortvedt as a viable, quality ML catcher with hit and power potential. Who knows how good he could yet be. But with Garver in the mix as well, I do wonder if there is room for all 3.

We talk about OF/1B/DH depth in the system, but I can't recall this much catching depth in the system for some time, if ever. A trade could be involved at some point. But this is another good problem to have.

 

First and foremost... congratulations on the multi-quote... I've never even tried that,so nice job!

 

And, I never mean to denigrate Rortvedt. He is a fantastic prospect, and is a future big leaguers, probably for a long time. I just happen to think that Jeffers is a higher-rated prospect. It's just that when we compare, it comes across as either/or, and it doesn't have tobe. 

 

The nice thing is they'll both start at Pensacola... They have Telis and Astudillo probably at Rochester. Telis crushed at Rochester last year. So, there isn't any rush on either. They'll both likely be behind the plate half of the time. Jeffers will likely get more opportunity. Hopefully they both play really well and each is in a position to make the big-league roster by Opening Day 2021!

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#56 Seth Stohs

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 11:19 AM

 

OF/1B/DH depth is easy, catching depth is not.

 

And I don't think the Twins actually have enough catching depth to really think about trading someone unless the perfect deal arises to make them want to do it.

 

As for past catching depth, it's pretty hard to rival Mauer with Ramos in the minors. Garver may be good but he ain't Joe Mauer and while some of the prospects might be good, Ramos *at least* equalled them at the time.

 

Or, if you want to go back a few more years, Pierzynski in Minnesota with Mauer in the minors. That may have literally been the best catching depth in the history of MLB. We're talking about a guy in MLB with 20+ career WAR, followed by a guy with close to 50 career WAR.

 

Now that I think of it, the Twins have this weird ability to field some really nasty players at the ends of the field; centerfield and catcher.

How does a team field so many good/great players at those two positions over 40 years while sucking pretty hard at fielding even decent players at the other seven spots?

 

Some great points here... First, they have done a great job in CF and Catcher... I think that they have prioritized (at least they did in the past) high-end high-school hitting draft picks that are athletic and can play CF or SS. Not many end up there, but they want to make sure they give themselves options at those spots. Those athletes can typically move elsewhere. Hunter, Span, Revere, Benson (adding Gomez in a trade). 

 

Secondly, I know they always want to be semi-aggressive in the draft with catchers. Look at 2013 when they took Turner, Navarreto and Garver in the first nine rounds. Rortvedt. Jeffers. Chris Herrmann was a 6th round pick. And then they draft a bunch late too because they fully understand that the catching position can be a really tough position, physically and mentally, and it's hard to get to the big leagues. I also think the work Tanner Swanson did, and the philosophy of providing rest, especially for catchers all help. 

 

The one other point that I thought was interesting... Wilson Ramos was a terrific prospect, but I don't know that I agree that he was a better prospect then than Jeffers is now. I think the Twins system is much stronger, so him ranking 7th compared to Ramos ranking 2nd or 3rd probably doesn't show it. But I think they're more similar than it may appear. (I do think Ramos may have been a slightly better prospect, though there were a lot of age questions with him at the time too, I just think it's close.) 

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#57 rdehring

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 11:24 AM

 

8 Players are coming off the 26 man at the end of next season.

 

Jake Odorizzi
Nelson Cruz
Marwin Gonzalez
Homer Bailey
Romo
Alex Avilia
Rich Hill
Tyler Clippard

 

There are also some very expendable players on the 40 man. Plus, it's quite likely a couple players get traded. I don't see a big problem on the horizon.

Not all 8 of these spots will be available for new additions to the 40-man.Unless the Twins decide to fill all 8 spots from the minor leagues, new players will be signed or traded for to fill at least half of these spots.

 

But the key point I get from reading Seth's post is the large number of very good prospects running into the Rule 5 threat this coming November.Now will all or any be gone if left unprotected, no one knows.But it sure seems to me to be a bigger problem than I recall in recent years....which is good!


#58 Seth Stohs

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 11:33 AM

 

I strongly disagree. Rortvedt has had a consistently better stick than Turner and I don’t think Jeffers will ever be a hitter at Garvers level.

 

To be fair, Garver has never hit at what is now Garver's level. 

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#59 rdehring

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 11:34 AM

 

Hey! Look at me! I think I finally figured out how to multi-quote! LOL. Going to just be excited for myself for a moment because no matter how smart an individual I am, or pretend to be, or techno savy about certain things, I am just not a natural computer guy. So self kuddos to me. Lol

I like both comments equally. I just have a great, but feeling about Rotvedt. I have a soft place for catchers and feel they are vastly underrated. Mostly because they may be the hardest position to quantify. Everyone wants a great offensive catcher...rare as they may be...who also plays great defense. But how do you measure their defense? Is it SB %? Is it framing? Is it any of the current defensive analytics? A long time ago, even with game plannjng and sideline suggestion, an NFL QB used to call plays. Despite analytics and dugout calls, the catcher still has to call a game and have the trust of his pitcher to "work" a game together. How do you measure that sort of thing?

Rortvedt, right now, to me, is behind Jeffers due to age and bat, and because everything seems to indicate the Twins really like and believe in Jeffers. But being the current #2 in the system shouldn't diminish the ability and potential of Rortvedt as a viable, quality ML catcher with hit and power potential. Who knows how good he could yet be. But with Garver in the mix as well, I do wonder if there is room for all 3.

We talk about OF/1B/DH depth in the system, but I can't recall this much catching depth in the system for some time, if ever. A trade could be involved at some point. But this is another good problem to have.

The outfield depth we have been talking about is somewhat misleading.Yes, the Twins have lots of good young outfielders in the system.But in 2019 none were pushing for jobs with the Twins.When a couple starters went down, Buxton and Rosario/Kepler for short stints on the IL, none were available to help the Twins.So they ended up with Cave, Wade and various infielders playing in the outfield.  

 

Will any of this group be available, if needed, in 2020?I would hope so but not certain if injuries hit during spring training.

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#60 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 11:38 AM

I strongly disagree. Rortvedt has had a consistently better stick than Turner and I don’t think Jeffers will ever be a hitter at Garvers level.


Jeffers has outhit Garver at both high A and AA, while being younger at both levels.
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