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Front Page: Have the Twins Been Getting Beaten by Cheaters?

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#101 Riverbrian

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:55 PM

 

Darvish had one bad performance in Houston but that was directly after he had an equally bad outing in LA.It wasn't the first time he stunk it up in the post season either as he pitched poorly in his only 2016 playoff game as well. From my understanding it was beating on the trash can meant an offspeed pitch is coming, doesn't Darvish have like 8 offspeed pitches with differing velocity and movements?Then he got a big contract anyway, one the Cubs probably regret.

 

There isn't a way to assess the scope that this caused but I don't think any pitcher lost a substantial amount in arbitration because of a few innings against Houston.Arbitration is more complicated then one bad outing causing a player to lose substantial amounts of money. And if we found any players that were actually sent down after playing houston at home, it probably wasn't going to hinge on that game.You don't tell a prospect "if you can't perform against the best offense in their home ballpark, then you don't have what it takes."IF there was even anyone sent down after playing them it was probably a depth move to begin with.

 

The player to player effects are likely minimal (aside from the benefits the Astros saw in ARB and FA) and the only real concern is whether or not they would have won the WS without it.

 

I agree with you. There is no way to assess the scope. I know I can't do it from my living in room in North Dakota and I'm not sure if Rob Manfred and his associates can say they have all of the potential ramifications completely understood either. It's simply too hard to do so. 

 

There are way too many tentacles that could come off of something like this that can't be quantified because of the uncertainty that clouds the air. Anything is possible, ranging from two world series titles that are now tainted, to front offices changing course due to effectiveness of the Astros organization, to other teams retooling after losses, to Yu Darvish signing for anywhere between a million dollars to who knows how many million dollars less, to the possibility of players being cut or sent down after a rough night in Houston, to Reverend Smith having to buy Gloria a soda after she won a friendly wager on the outcome of the series.

 

All the way to Twinsdaily posters typing mean things about the Twins players involved in a May 2017, 3 game series that produced 40 Astros runs against our Twins at Target field. No idea if this scandal was functional on the road but you look at 40 runs and you gotta wonder. Ryan Pressly was tagged for 7 earned runs in that series while getting only one out. He finished the year with a 4.70 ERA over 61.1 innings.Take out those 7 runs and his ERA drops to 3.69. If his ERA was 3.69 instead of 4.70... perhaps he doesn't settle for 1.6 in his 2nd year of arbitration. I have no idea but no matter how much these guys make. The difference between 1.6 million and 1.9 million is a lot of money. 

 

I can't speak with authority because I don't know if the scheme was effective or a garbage banging waste of time. I don't know exactly when it was deployed and when it wasn't, who knows maybe it backfired a time or two. Maybe the Astros and Red Sox would have won the world series anyway.However... I can't dismiss the effectiveness with Cora involved in back to back World Series titles. 

 

As I sit here and try to decide on guilt or innocence in my mind and cause and effect in my mind... I gotta tell you... This would be a rare moment in time where two World Series titles actually doesn't look good on the cause and effect front and World Series titles used to look good in any light.

 

And if a World Series title or two was the effect. I don't know if it was but... if it was... Yeah... it would probably cost Darvish a million or maybe a lot more in free agency. 

 

Baseball has some cleaning up to do... there is a major spill in Galveston Bay.:)

 

 

 

 

 

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#102 twinstalker

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 12:40 AM

 

(2) 1sts and (2) 2nds, 5 mil, GM & Mgr 1 yr suspensions for a World Series.

 

1. Above is a very light penalty.

2. $50 million penalty to the owner sends a signal to fix the cheat at all costs mentality.

3. Fine players caught in scandal. How about 50% of their salary?

4. Take away WS rings and team WS trophy.

5. Besides draft picks, no international signings over 100k for two years.

6. Two years suspensions for GM & Mgr

 

Did the Astros and Red Sox not know right from wrong?

 

If MLB had done any of this, then Crane would have demanded an investigation into every team, and MLB can't withstand that.Especially because the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers (the teams most likely to be doing it) are too important to MLB's brand.


#103 twinstalker

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 12:53 AM

 

I suspect Logan Morrison may not exactly be reliable source here, but...

 

If the Astros sign stealing pre-dated 2017, then Jason Castro would have known about it when he came over here. (Maybe even Grossman, if it really dated back to 2014.) (Note that Cora and Beltran did not join the Astros until 2017, so this is one of the iffier parts of Morrison's claims.)

 

For the post-2017 stealing, Marwin Gonzalez would have known about it when he came over to the Twins last winter too.

 

And I wouldn't be so quick to assume that all the Twins are "clean" either. It may not have been as wide as the Astros did it, but if the practice was common enough around the league as Logan Morrison says, it's certainly possible that individual Twins sought it out too.

I am sure Marwin let the Twins know. If he didn't, that's almost fire-able in and of itself. Funny, I just checked Marwin's 2017 and 2018 stats in Houston, and his away stats are significantly better.


#104 FritzDahmus

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 08:24 AM

 

No.

 

PED use was widespread, and lasted for more than a decade.

 


#105 FritzDahmus

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 08:28 AM

Yes.

 

.....and we don't yet know how widespread it is.

 


#106 FritzDahmus

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 08:37 AM

Here is a silly question.

 

Why not, as a precaution, change the signs up for every batter [as they do when someone is on second]? 

 

If they can "feel" that the signs are being stolen....do something about it.

 

I am not defending the sign stealing cheaters.

 

Baseball has lots of problems....add one more.


#107 SomeGuy

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 09:00 AM

 

I agree with you. There is no way to assess the scope. I know I can't do it from my living in room in North Dakota and I'm not sure if Rob Manfred and his associates can say they have all of the potential ramifications completely understood either. It's simply too hard to do so. 

 

There are way too many tentacles that could come off of something like this that can't be quantified because of the uncertainty that clouds the air. Anything is possible, ranging from two world series titles that are now tainted, to front offices changing course due to effectiveness of the Astros organization, to other teams retooling after losses, to Yu Darvish signing for anywhere between a million dollars to who knows how many million dollars less, to the possibility of players being cut or sent down after a rough night in Houston, to Reverend Smith having to buy Gloria a soda after she won a friendly wager on the outcome of the series.

 

All the way to Twinsdaily posters typing mean things about the Twins players involved in a May 2017, 3 game series that produced 40 Astros runs against our Twins at Target field. No idea if this scandal was functional on the road but you look at 40 runs and you gotta wonder. Ryan Pressly was tagged for 7 earned runs in that series while getting only one out. He finished the year with a 4.70 ERA over 61.1 innings.Take out those 7 runs and his ERA drops to 3.69. If his ERA was 3.69 instead of 4.70... perhaps he doesn't settle for 1.6 in his 2nd year of arbitration. I have no idea but no matter how much these guys make. The difference between 1.6 million and 1.9 million is a lot of money. 

 

I can't speak with authority because I don't know if the scheme was effective or a garbage banging waste of time. I don't know exactly when it was deployed and when it wasn't, who knows maybe it backfired a time or two. Maybe the Astros and Red Sox would have won the world series anyway.However... I can't dismiss the effectiveness with Cora involved in back to back World Series titles. 

 

As I sit here and try to decide on guilt or innocence in my mind and cause and effect in my mind... I gotta tell you... This would be a rare moment in time where two World Series titles actually doesn't look good on the cause and effect front and World Series titles used to look good in any light.

 

And if a World Series title or two was the effect. I don't know if it was but... if it was... Yeah... it would probably cost Darvish a million or maybe a lot more in free agency. 

 

Baseball has some cleaning up to do... there is a major spill in Galveston Bay.:)

We haven't seen anything suggesting that it was used on the road and I'm not sure how easily that could have been done. Personally I doubt they used the system on every pitch of every home game anyway because that would seem too obvious.If the batter can hear the trashcans then the pitcher and catcher probably can too.Some pitcher or catcher would have caught on if trashcans were hit every time an offspeed pitch was called. We have no idea how often it was used but I'm guessing it was less than people think. Probably key moments of key games.

 

A couple of caveats to the Ryan Pressly bit, his ERA was 6.11 before the May Home games against Houston, he was already in a poor stretch.I really doubt the Astro's used this system continuously throughout games when they were thrashing an opponent like those 2 games against the Twins (16-8 and 17-6), unless they wanted to get caught.He later pitched 2 scoreless outings in Houston for what its worth.

 

According to the Houston Chronicles the sign stealing operation was not on a direct to batter level in May when Pressly got lit up by the Astros.

 

Start of 2017 season: Employees in the Astros’ video replay review room begin using the live feed from the center-field camera to attempt to decode and transmit opponents’ signs. Astros bench coach Alex Cora begins to call the replay room to obtain sign information.

 

Circa June 2017: A group of Astros players, including veteran Carlos Beltran, discuss improving the sign-stealing operation and communicating them directly to batters. The trash-can banging system to communicate pitches begins.

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#108 h2oface

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 12:17 PM

Tim Flannery's take..... albeit from 2017......

https://www.facebook...i&__tn__=EEHH-R

 

In case the link doesn't work for you because of facebook protocol

 

"They are fining teams who try to steal signs ...hahahaha..got out just in time .

Ok...I feel a need to speak out, normal is changing, and today's norm is not the norm.
For 26 years I was in the big leagues , 10 as a player, 16 as a 3rd base coach , 20 if you count the other years learning the craft in the minor leagues , from Boise , to Wichita. The seriousness of the writer, the expertise from the front office man, the commissioner, to those who have never lived it. Here it is...I have 25 World Series games under my belt, 7 elimination games, and a 7th game of a World Series. 5 World Series ,3 World Championships I know it don't mean much to those in front of a computer, with the answers and all the rules. So I'm gonna make a long story short. I had a video camera on every 3rd base coach every single night, I spent hours logging tapes trying to steal your signs and finding a way to beat you. You as well did it, in New York I knew the Valentine Mets did it, I knew the Cubs did it, I knew the Dbacks, St. Louis did it, I caught them, that's when the fun begins , you **** em up by changing signs, you tell the boys " if I put a hit and run on first pitch don't do anything, they will pitch out and now they don't have the signs, and you're in a hitters count" the list goes on and on.....if you aren't smart enough ( and believe me this isn't rocket science, it's being somewhat aware) it's your fault, now the game is turned into no breaking up double plays , don't slide hard at home, don't block the plate.if you are not creative enough to derail them, you've stopped thinking. As far as some of the greatest baseball writers who I love, read and listen to, and hang with. You are so off on the sign stuff. It's a high stakes poker game, big money especially as coaches . If you get caught , if your signs are stolen and you don't know in the moment they are close, they are on you...your not thinking, and now because of that the commissioner comes in not understanding, the writers write stealing signs is wrong. We had an advance scout that could watch your 3rd base coach for 3 days and be real close to getting his signs. He would send his report and I would watch you, or have a camera on you, if you haven't played , you don't understand how important this part of the game should be. You don't understand I would not only try and steal your hit and run sign, I would put our hit and run on that my guys knew, then in the same sequence put the other teams hit and run on so when they look at their cameras that we all used to steal the signs they would see and in their minds " **** they have the same sign for hit and run we have". It's propaganda war fare, its trying to beat you......so why you claim people aren't watching baseball because it takes to long, I say your taking the smarts out of it. ...I tried every night for 16 years to steal your signs either writing every thing you did down, or by looking at tapes because I had a camera on you, just like you had on me. Please leave the game alone, and every writer who wrote articles on this..be in church Sunday,because I know for a fact everyone of you looked at body language , vibe, and found a way to snake another writer to get the feature, get the win., leaving it with no creativity, no thinking, and the dumbing down of the greatest game ever......not that I know anything about it....Peace Tim Flannery."

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#109 SwainZag

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 01:20 PM

 

Tim Flannery's take..... albeit from 2017......

https://www.facebook...i&__tn__=EEHH-R

 

In case the link doesn't work for you because of facebook protocol

 

"They are fining teams who try to steal signs ...hahahaha..got out just in time .

Ok...I feel a need to speak out, normal is changing, and today's norm is not the norm.
For 26 years I was in the big leagues , 10 as a player, 16 as a 3rd base coach , 20 if you count the other years learning the craft in the minor leagues , from Boise , to Wichita. The seriousness of the writer, the expertise from the front office man, the commissioner, to those who have never lived it. Here it is...I have 25 World Series games under my belt, 7 elimination games, and a 7th game of a World Series. 5 World Series ,3 World Championships I know it don't mean much to those in front of a computer, with the answers and all the rules. So I'm gonna make a long story short. I had a video camera on every 3rd base coach every single night, I spent hours logging tapes trying to steal your signs and finding a way to beat you. You as well did it, in New York I knew the Valentine Mets did it, I knew the Cubs did it, I knew the Dbacks, St. Louis did it, I caught them, that's when the fun begins , you **** em up by changing signs, you tell the boys " if I put a hit and run on first pitch don't do anything, they will pitch out and now they don't have the signs, and you're in a hitters count" the list goes on and on.....if you aren't smart enough ( and believe me this isn't rocket science, it's being somewhat aware) it's your fault, now the game is turned into no breaking up double plays , don't slide hard at home, don't block the plate.if you are not creative enough to derail them, you've stopped thinking. As far as some of the greatest baseball writers who I love, read and listen to, and hang with. You are so off on the sign stuff. It's a high stakes poker game, big money especially as coaches . If you get caught , if your signs are stolen and you don't know in the moment they are close, they are on you...your not thinking, and now because of that the commissioner comes in not understanding, the writers write stealing signs is wrong. We had an advance scout that could watch your 3rd base coach for 3 days and be real close to getting his signs. He would send his report and I would watch you, or have a camera on you, if you haven't played , you don't understand how important this part of the game should be. You don't understand I would not only try and steal your hit and run sign, I would put our hit and run on that my guys knew, then in the same sequence put the other teams hit and run on so when they look at their cameras that we all used to steal the signs they would see and in their minds " **** they have the same sign for hit and run we have". It's propaganda war fare, its trying to beat you......so why you claim people aren't watching baseball because it takes to long, I say your taking the smarts out of it. ...I tried every night for 16 years to steal your signs either writing every thing you did down, or by looking at tapes because I had a camera on you, just like you had on me. Please leave the game alone, and every writer who wrote articles on this..be in church Sunday,because I know for a fact everyone of you looked at body language , vibe, and found a way to snake another writer to get the feature, get the win., leaving it with no creativity, no thinking, and the dumbing down of the greatest game ever......not that I know anything about it....Peace Tim Flannery."

 

Anyone who has ever spent a lot of time around baseball know that signs get stolen.Tim can go on forever how they taped the coaches and de-coded the signs, that's really not the point here.The Astros went above and beyond this.

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#110 Riverbrian

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 01:40 PM

 

We haven't seen anything suggesting that it was used on the road and I'm not sure how easily that could have been done. Personally I doubt they used the system on every pitch of every home game anyway because that would seem too obvious.If the batter can hear the trashcans then the pitcher and catcher probably can too.Some pitcher or catcher would have caught on if trashcans were hit every time an offspeed pitch was called. We have no idea how often it was used but I'm guessing it was less than people think. Probably key moments of key games.

 

A couple of caveats to the Ryan Pressly bit, his ERA was 6.11 before the May Home games against Houston, he was already in a poor stretch.I really doubt the Astro's used this system continuously throughout games when they were thrashing an opponent like those 2 games against the Twins (16-8 and 17-6), unless they wanted to get caught.He later pitched 2 scoreless outings in Houston for what its worth.

 

According to the Houston Chronicles the sign stealing operation was not on a direct to batter level in May when Pressly got lit up by the Astros.

 

Start of 2017 season: Employees in the Astros’ video replay review room begin using the live feed from the center-field camera to attempt to decode and transmit opponents’ signs. Astros bench coach Alex Cora begins to call the replay room to obtain sign information.

 

Circa June 2017: A group of Astros players, including veteran Carlos Beltran, discuss improving the sign-stealing operation and communicating them directly to batters. The trash-can banging system to communicate pitches begins.

 

Thanks for the info. 

 

Pressly was more of a general point using a specific example and not a specific point for a general example.:)

 

If the system works and somebody gets clobbered with it. It could cost them money and probably did. 

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#111 h2oface

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 06:18 PM

 

Anyone who has ever spent a lot of time around baseball know that signs get stolen.Tim can go on forever how they taped the coaches and de-coded the signs, that's really not the point here.The Astros went above and beyond this.

 

Ah. Stealing signs is OK, then, but the way you steal them and communicate them becomes the point, not what you are doing? I guess the sticking point then is the cameras in real time? Like the runner on second gives signals in real time? I will always think, regardless of the MLB present stance, that it is up to the defense to always figure out a way to communicate in secret. I really don't care about using tech. It will only get better. I understand that the penalties given were because the directive was made. But the directive was after the event, no? The rule was instituted at the beginning of the 2019 season? I could be wrong. I don't have a problem with the decision, in light of the directive in place. I find Flannery's take, and info, interesting. That's why I posted it.

 

I think the biggest way an at bat is affected is all the incorrect umpire calls, and that can be fixed, immediately if not sooner.... with tech. 


#112 USAFChief

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 09:55 PM

Ah. Stealing signs is OK, then, but the way you steal them and communicate them becomes the point, not what you are doing? I guess the sticking point then is the cameras in real time? Like the runner on second gives signals in real time? I will always think, regardless of the MLB present stance, that it is up to the defense to always figure out a way to communicate in secret. I really don't care about using tech. It will only get better. I understand that the penalties given were because the directive was made. But the directive was after the event, no? The rule was instituted at the beginning of the 2019 season? I could be wrong. I don't have a problem with the decision, in light of the directive in place. I find Flannery's take, and info, interesting. That's why I posted it.

I think the biggest way an at bat is affected is all the incorrect umpire calls, and that can be fixed, immediately if not sooner.... with tech.

Manfred's memo regarding electronic sign stealing came out in 2017, and made very clear it wouldn't be tolerated, and that team management would be held responsible.

That's why the punishments in Houston were for cheating in 2017.

They knew exactly what they were doing, and why they shouldn't be doing it.
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#113 h2oface

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 11:05 PM

 

Manfred's memo regarding electronic sign stealing came out in 2017, and made very clear it wouldn't be tolerated, and that team management would be held responsible.

That's why the punishments in Houston were for cheating in 2017.

They knew exactly what they were doing, and why they shouldn't be doing it.

 

Like I said...... I don't have a problem with the decision. Thanks for the clarification on the memo/directive date. Looks like it was September 15, 2017.

 

https://www.nytimes....ns-yankees.html

 

As far as I can figure out, there is still no actual MLB rule that addresses sign stealing. I wonder why? It doesn't appear to be added in the rules that were adopted/changed and went into effect at the start of the 2019 season. It seems there should be an actual rule, instead of just an "executive order", so to speak. 

https://www.mlb.com/...b-rules-changes

 

 


#114 SwainZag

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 12:47 AM

 

Like I said...... I don't have a problem with the decision. Thanks for the clarification on the memo/directive date. Looks like it was September 15, 2017.

 

https://www.nytimes....ns-yankees.html

 

As far as I can figure out, there is still no actual MLB rule that addresses sign stealing. I wonder why? It doesn't appear to be added in the rules that were adopted/changed and went into effect at the start of the 2019 season. It seems there should be an actual rule, instead of just an "executive order", so to speak. 

https://www.mlb.com/...b-rules-changes

 

It's not in the rules because sign stealing isn't a problem.We tried to de-code and steal signs when I was in little league from the dugout.Signs get changed all the time because of this.The problem with the Astros is they are using electronic means to give them real time information which they could not do otherwise....and it's a problem.


#115 h2oface

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:02 AM

Having one's foot on the pitcher's rubber to throw a pitch isn't a problem either. But there is still an official rule, instead of a memo. And it appears the way signs are stolen, and clarifying that, has been an "official problem" for at least 2+ years, now. 

 

"Anyone who has ever spent a lot of time around baseball know that signs get stolen."

???? well of course......


#116 Twodogs

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 08:06 AM

I didnt want to read through all 6 pages of this so some of this may be redundant, if so I am sorry. But here goes my rant. I feel that this is probably actually worse than PED use. Just because of the simple fact that a whole team has to participate in this as opposed to onr player. So some dude on your team could be juicing and everyone else could be clean and doing things the right way. Do you get mad at the whole group because of one guy? With what the Astros have been accused of everyone knows what they are doing and obviously approved of it, so in retrospect it would be likened to gang mentality. So what's worse in a court of law? One guy commits a crime, or a gang committed a crime?? Think about that for a second.

Also, what about You Darvish? What would have his stock looked like in his free agent year had the Astros not been sign stealing during the world series?? I mean had he not gotten blown up in the world series by the Astros don't you think he would have maybe even made more money in the off season? I mean guys like Kershaw and a plethora of other players could make the same claim? Don't you think some of these guys could sue the Astros for lost wages??? Maybe Scott Boras should get on this band wagon??

Last, and in my opinion will be the least popular, but at one point in time the players took care of this stuff all by themselves. I mean if you were stealing signs off of Rob Dibble what would have happened? Nolan Ryan? What would have happened if you were stealing Nolan's signs? Tom Seaver? Bob Gibson? Dave Stewart? I mean we could sit here all day with this one. They say let the kids play, which is fine, I like a few bat flips here and there, but then they should also let the kids police themselves a little bit too. You let the players take care of this stuff and I guarantee less of it happened.

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#117 Sam Morley

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 09:57 AM

knowing what pitch is coming is a much greater advantage than the benefits of PEDs. I can't think of a bigger advantage a hitter could have.

 

the punishments are ridiculous. the competitors should take advantage of the tools at their disposal. 'here guys, have all this tech- all these cameras, and this video, and these monitors, and these computers- use it all, but morally police yourselves on how.'

 

get rid of video. no video for "player development". no video for in-game scouting. no video for review. no video for sign stealing. 

 

you can have post game access to the TV broadcast video that everyone else gets. you can take video in practice for development purposes. 

 

take the damn headsets of, get out of the video room, quit with the fussing and nitpicking, and play the game on the field.

 

we've seen the game on juice- it was very interesting and also entertaining. I'm glad we saw it. I'm also glad that era is probably over. It wasn't pure human competition.

 

now we've seen the game on tech- it's also very interesting and entertaining. at home, we probably all feel more included in the game than ever before. we get to make and discuss all this analysis- we get to feel like we know more about the game than people who have been in it at the highest level their whole lives because we can process some metrics they don't give a rip about. I'm glad for it, I've enjoyed it. I hope it's just another era of the history of the game coming to it's end. I want the game on the field, played by the best in the world, without the tech, without the over analysis, without the second guessing.


#118 Sam Morley

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:07 AM

Also, this was the most amazing combination of high and low tech ever to accomplish a task.

 

They banged on a trash can with a stick. 

 

Unbelievable.

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#119 spycake

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:33 AM

 

Funny, I just checked Marwin's 2017 and 2018 stats in Houston, and his away stats are significantly better.

Depends on your measure. Marwin's power was significantly higher at home in 2017 -- 15 HR at home vs 8 on the road, in virtually the same number of PA. His walk rate was also notably higher in both 2017 and 2018 compared to the rest of his career.

 

It's possible that Marwin knew what pitch was coming often enough in 2017 to turn on them and net a few extra HR at home. That could have had a trickle-down effect on his other stats, as teams would pitch him differently at home or away -- i.e. pitch him more carefully and he can get more walks.

 

Of course, it could just be normal variation too. His 2018 power stats are the reverse. (Although maybe the sign stealing was reduced in 2018, and/or perhaps the scouting had caught up enough to neutralize his advantage -- teams likely quit throwing him the pitches he was consistently jumping on in 2017.)


#120 akmanak

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 12:31 PM

They got caught cheating and got a slap on the wrist. Should of banned them from post season for 2 years.