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Front Page: Have the Twins Been Getting Beaten by Cheaters?

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#21 Linus

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 09:33 AM

No.

PED use was widespread, and lasted for more than a decade.


Let me clarify. I was referring to the advantage gained not how pervasive it is.
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#22 Blake

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 09:38 AM

By the way, it still astounds me that knowing what pitch is coming is that much of an advantage for a hitter.

 

 


#23 nicksaviking

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 09:39 AM

Well I like that Morrison accused a former team of cheating in the Yankees, but not the Twins even though he would have had knowledge if the Twins did. Kind of puts me at ease that the Twins won't get caught up in this.

 

But I'm skeptical of Morrison's claims. Sounds like Carlos Beltran squealed like a pig and the Houston system was pretty much all his and Cora's doing, neither of whom was in Houston in 2014, a team that lost 92 games by the way.

 

Morrison's stuff kind of just sounds like office rumors, which tend to originate from wish-fulfillment, jealousy and excuses. 

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#24 JW24

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 09:47 AM

 

At least, we know the Twins didn’t cheat. Because Minnesota teams always get caught when they cheat (Joe Smith, Tice tickets, Gophers everything . . .)

Maybe the Twins are figuring out how to cheat more effectively than any other MN team. By having Rosario hitting 4th, swinging at everything, no one would assume the Twins are relaying signs to hitters. That is where Houston went wrong, you need to have at least one free swinger in the lineup to prevent suspicion.

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#25 SarasotaBill

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 09:48 AM

(2) 1sts and (2) 2nds, 5 mil, GM & Mgr 1 yr suspensions for a World Series.

 

1. Above is a very light penalty.

2. $50 million penalty to the owner sends a signal to fix the cheat at all costs mentality.

3. Fine players caught in scandal. How about 50% of their salary?

4. Take away WS rings and team WS trophy.

5. Besides draft picks, no international signings over 100k for two years.

6. Two years suspensions for GM & Mgr

 

Did the Astros and Red Sox not know right from wrong?

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#26 bighat

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 09:54 AM

You can cheat, get caught, and then keep your title? What? Like the 1997 Final Four Gophers, they should have their post-season appearances and any titles eliminated and struck from the record.

 

The 2017 Championship Astros banners (and possibly the 2018 Red Sox banners) should be taken down from the stadium and the titles should be vacated.

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#27 Mike Sixel

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:12 AM

Yes. Yes they have. 

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#28 USAFChief

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:23 AM

 

You can cheat, get caught, and then keep your title? What? Like the 1997 Final Four Gophers, they should have their post-season appearances and any titles eliminated and struck from the record.

 

The 2017 Championship Astros banners (and possibly the 2018 Red Sox banners) should be taken down from the stadium and the titles should be vacated.

Should the Twins have to void any games won in 2019 in which Pineda appeared?

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#29 nicksaviking

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:24 AM

 

(2) 1sts and (2) 2nds, 5 mil, GM & Mgr 1 yr suspensions for a World Series.

 

 

2. $50 million penalty to the owner sends a signal to fix the cheat at all costs mentality.

3. Fine players caught in scandal. How about 50% of their salary?

 

 

$5M is the max a team can be penalized according to MLB's own bylaws.

 

And they can't take away player's salaries, that would be against the CBA, and likely completely illegal.

 

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#30 jkcarew

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:26 AM

It's the quintessential Minnesota thing to assume that the reason your teams lose is because something unfair happened during the game/season...and that your team is never guilty of anything. As a life-long Minnesotan I can attest that there's nothing more Minnesotan than that. It's the way we remain so proud of all those division titles and playoff "appearances".

 

Would I rather finish 2nd honestly than in 1st dishonestly. 100%. But, let's not lose track of the fact that the Twins primary challenge over the last decade-plus has been both lack of commitment and lack of execution. Not external factors.

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#31 spycake

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:28 AM

I suspect Logan Morrison may not exactly be reliable source here, but...

 

If the Astros sign stealing pre-dated 2017, then Jason Castro would have known about it when he came over here. (Maybe even Grossman, if it really dated back to 2014.) (Note that Cora and Beltran did not join the Astros until 2017, so this is one of the iffier parts of Morrison's claims.)

 

For the post-2017 stealing, Marwin Gonzalez would have known about it when he came over to the Twins last winter too.

 

And I wouldn't be so quick to assume that all the Twins are "clean" either. It may not have been as wide as the Astros did it, but if the practice was common enough around the league as Logan Morrison says, it's certainly possible that individual Twins sought it out too.

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#32 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:31 AM

 

By the way, it still astounds me that knowing what pitch is coming is that much of an advantage for a hitter.

Timing...and probably to some extent enough scouting knowledge to know the direction of movement and adjust accordingly.

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#33 spycake

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:33 AM

Any mention of Marwin Gonzalez in the report? Marwin was among the Astros batters who knocked Darvish out of the second inning in both games 3 and 7 of the 2017 World Series, despite a largely ineffective postseason at the plate otherwise.

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#34 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:35 AM

You can cheat, get caught, and then keep your title? What? Like the 1997 Final Four Gophers, they should have their post-season appearances and any titles eliminated and struck from the record.
 
The 2017 Championship Astros banners (and possibly the 2018 Red Sox banners) should be taken down from the stadium and the titles should be vacated.

Personally, I’ve always hated that sort of penalty. That’s really a dig at the fans, in my opinion, who don’t deserve it.
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#35 scottz

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:42 AM

Small sample size, but 2017:

 

Home vs HOU 0-3

Away vs HOU 1-2

 

I'm going to say that it sucks and it's good the Astros are being punished, but unless the Astros have cameras in opponents' ballparks, they might just have been, you know, good.

 

Houston's 2017 splits:

Home 48W 33L .593
Road 53W 28L .654

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#36 dex8425

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:43 AM

 

Maybe the Twins are figuring out how to cheat more effectively than any other MN team. By having Rosario hitting 4th, swinging at everything, no one would assume the Twins are relaying signs to hitters. That is where Houston went wrong, you need to have at least one free swinger in the lineup to prevent suspicion.

Altuve is most definitely a free swinger though:)

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#37 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:48 AM

While agreeing with all of the above, I also can’t help thinking that if pitchers weren’t taking so much time to deliver the pitch, this type of cheating would be minimal. I don’t know, let’s see what turns up.

Knowing what pitch is coming is huge, but I doubt batters would have much time to look away from the pitcher, decode the signal, and then bring their eyes back to the pitcher’s delivery slot before the pitch comes. And that’s the last step in the process. Illegal sign stealing like this... I think it would work only under the right conditions.
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#38 Don Walcott

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:52 AM

The penalties are harsh, and possibly a good deterrent. However, as long as we allow technology in the dugouts when the game starts, there will be people who will find ways to push the envelope, and occasionally cross the line. The rules against using technology to steal signs have been in place for 20 years, with periodic reinforcement of the rules since. And teams were still stealing signs with technology.

 

In a discussion on MLB last night, Verducci, Costas and Rosenthal all advocated no technology in the dugout at all once the game starts. I think this is a good idea, if we're serious about eliminating this type of cheating.

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#39 twinkiesfan11

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:57 AM

50 game ban for every player who served more than 120 games on the major league roster of the 2017, 2018 and 2019 Astros. It would turn them into a AAA team long enough to eliminate them from playoff contention and there would be no 1st or 2nd round picks to show for the lost season. This would have been fair in my opinion and can guarantee no team would risk this type of cheating again.
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#40 Nick Nelson

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 11:08 AM

 

Morrison's stuff kind of just sounds like office rumors, which tend to originate from wish-fulfillment, jealousy and excuses. 

To your point, it is striking to me that Morrison — who has pretty much always played for smaller-market underdog types — named all big-market heavy hitters in his accusations.

You can bet that he'll be contacted by MLB investigators in efforts to substantiate his claims though. Who knows what kind of evidence or references he might be able tp provide.

 

BTW, love the photo, Nick.

 

Maybe those 2017 rings should be "taken back".

LOL. I didn't even notice what his shirt said when I selected that but, yeah, takes on an all-new meaning doesn't it?

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