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2020 off-season thread

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#101 DocBauer

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 05:42 PM

Sure, maybe, but they don't need to be 6-7th round picks, as there is virtually no difference between a 6-7th round pick and a UDFA. In fact, the guys the Vikings would hypothetically earmark for 6-7th round picks probably would be UDFAs if the Vikings didn't pick them. I think it's unlikely the Vikings would get sniped on the guys they want, it's all wildcards at that point, I'd rather they use the equity to get guys in rounds 5 or earlier who are more likely to make a difference.


Agreed. Especially, as I think I pointed out in an earlier post this staff has done well with UDFA development. But they have also done very well with those 6th and 7th round choices over the years. Think Johnson, Watts, Kearse and Weatherly for example. Or Odenigbo who could, potentially, be a starter this upcoming season. So the potential value of those late picks should not be undersold, whether they make the team initially or spend a year on the PS. The difference between a 6th and 7th round selection vs and UDFA is you get to select someone you really believe you can develop vs fighting offers from other teams on those UDFA you like who may choose to go elsewhere.

I'd have to go back and review past drafts, but I would almost bet Spielman and company have had as good or better results from their 6th and 7th rounders vs their 4th and 5th round choices. So again, I say not to marginalize those pick opportunities.

But to be clear, I also don't have a problem moving some of those late round options to move up and get someone the Vikings really like and believe in.
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#102 Mike Sixel

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 07:09 PM

An OL? I approve of the idea....got no idea on the player.

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#103 DocBauer

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Posted 26 April 2020 - 05:53 PM

Wish we had a better or more attended thread, but just wanted to share my thoughts on the draft. No OTA or rookie camps is going to make this a very hard season to properly introduce and develop young talent. Going to make it that much harder for teams to determine exactly where they are and what they have. I wonder if the NFL might squeeze in some camps if this whole situation settles down, start the season later, expand the roster, expand the practice squad or make the rules of retention easier for a year.

Regardless, while I disagree with some of what Spielman and the Vikings did, as I always do, and have been right on a few occasions, I think they pulled off a tremendous draft. My biggest surprise and concern is Justin Jefferson as the first pick. I love the kid and his potential, but like Thielen, he works best out of the slot. He is not a direct replacement for Diggs. I am going to assume Kubiak, a very, very smart offensive mind, has a plan to get the most out of everyone. Other than that, I think they hit on every pick through the first 4 rounds. Every selection seems to fill need and seems like a fit for the systems in place, knowing there will be tweaks with staff changes. (I'm expecting some changes toward the "Tampa" 4-3 cover 3 we used to play).

Very intrigued by the 4th round. Wonnum fits the athletic profile Patterson has been so successful working with to develop at DE. Lynch looks like a natural fit for the 3 spot. And Dye is the kind of athletic, mobile cover LB we haven't had for a while. Even though the 3rd LB isn't on the field that much, there are ways to use a player like that in different situations, especially if he can muscle up just a bit more and be a bit more physical. I could see Barr, finally, be used more as a rusher and let Kendricks and Dye play LB in dime packages.

The 5th round is where I have concerns. Hand seems to have the length, physicality and attitude to develop in the secondary, but lacks long speed and seems stiff in his movements. But CB or S, he seems to be a versatile guy Zimmer loves to develop. But I just don't see a fit for Osborn, the WR from Miami. He may find a role as a return man, and that's important to be sure. He produced at Buffalo and improved year to year but didn't exactly set the world on fire after transferring to Miami. Was that poor QB play and a new system? I get the trades made for 2021 picks, which was smart, but it seems we lost out on a few guys we could have made a move for that had the potential to be a true SE instead of another potential slot guy.

Call me crazy, but I think they went out and nailed the 6th and 7th round. Brandel started for 4yrs at Oregon State, primarily at LT. Some speculation be could mkve to G, and I see no way he makes the club. But he is a perfect, long and experienced 6' 7" T, to build up and work on the practice squad to develop in to a possible swing T. Metellus is an experienced and physical S to play ST and develop at S from a top program. Cole from Miss St is very similar to Kearse, who we just lost. Willekes is a limited athlete and former WO from a top program who has always overcome and produced. He's a high energy/effort player that I bet finds a role, especially with Patterson working with him. Hinton has no chance to make the club out of division 2 moving from tackle to G, but is a great PS option. He was a D2 All American and has great speed and tremendous strength. He participated at KS State, I believe, on his pro day and produced a 4.88 40, 34 reps on the bench and a 34.5 vertical.

I wasn't surprised the Vikes took a QB considering what is on the bench. I also wasn't surprised it was Stanley as he had been repeatedly mocked. He wasn't my first choice, but he makes sense. While not overly mobile in the pocket, he is physically bigger clone of Cousins. He has tons of experience and productivity and an arm that can make all the throws, including the deep ball. But like Cousins, he has the problem of holding the ball too long and not checking down quick enough. He also lacks touch once in a while, probably due to holding the ball too long. Cousins has improved on these things, still needs to more, maybe Stanley can as well. Can he develop in to a nice #2? Worth a look.

Spielman has stated they were also very aggressive on the UDFA front. Maybe they were. They've done very well over the years in this area. So far, not that impressed with what I've seen and researched. Neville Clarke at CB is very similar to Hand in the 5th round and could be interesting. DB/S Myles Torn comes from a good program at NC and could be interesting. Quartney Davis from TX A&M has skills and potential and might be one of those guys who really should have gone back for their senior year. UDFA to mid round pick in 2021? Maybe.

The one guy I find really interesting is Jake Lacina/C from Augustana. His father was former Bill and Viking Corbin Lacina. He was the Div 2 Rimington award winner for 2019 and a consensus Div 2 All American. Again, a perfect PS member.

I think we mostly nailed the draft. Edit: still depends on the coaching staff to develop said talent. While I could question not moving up once or twice and picking a certain player or two, or keeping existing picks and grabbing said player or two, I completely appreciate adding to next season. With expected compensation picks figured in, we already have 12 picks for 2021 to further add to the roster or move up for a special addition or two. SE or future QB?

Not 100% sold on WR, but really happy with what was done.
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#104 Mike Sixel

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 11:39 AM

anything past round 4 is a crapshoot......The only thing I'd have done differently is DB or DL in round 1, and WR in round 3 or later......But, overall, it looks like a good draft. 

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It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#105 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 02:05 PM

 

anything past round 4 is a crapshoot......The only thing I'd have done differently is DB or DL in round 1, and WR in round 3 or later......But, overall, it looks like a good draft. 

 

I had been looking at DL early, but then it did occur to me that if Spielman can be complemented on anything, he's been really good at spotting d-linman in the middle to late rounds. Some of the guys they ended up with are now the guys I'm most excited to see due to that track record.

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#106 Vanimal46

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 04:55 PM

I had been looking at DL early, but then it did occur to me that if Spielman can be complemented on anything, he's been really good at spotting d-linman in the middle to late rounds. Some of the guys they ended up with are now the guys I'm most excited to see due to that track record.


One guy in particular I’m excited about is DT James Lynch. Generating pressure from the interior DL was sorely lacking last year... Lynch led the nation with 70 QB pressures, a 1st team All American, 13 sacks and 19.5 TFL for Baylor. He cuts right in front of the line for 3 technique!
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#107 Mike Sixel

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 05:11 PM

 

I had been looking at DL early, but then it did occur to me that if Spielman can be complemented on anything, he's been really good at spotting d-linman in the middle to late rounds. Some of the guys they ended up with are now the guys I'm most excited to see due to that track record.

 

Or WR....He's been awful in round 1, great later.....

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It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#108 DocBauer

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 05:39 PM

anything past round 4 is a crapshoot......The only thing I'd have done differently is DB or DL in round 1, and WR in round 3 or later......But, overall, it looks like a good draft.


I hear ya. I wasn't happy trading that 2nd choice in the 3rd round. Probably my biggest complaint. I was really hoping for a SE type or a G there. But adding more picks provided more options for a roster that suddenly found itself severely lacking in depth and needing fresh bodies to work with. As much as we need help at G, I think adding a fine young T was most important. If the extra picks wash out the loss of that 3rd rounder could haunt.
"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

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#109 DocBauer

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 05:53 PM

I had been looking at DL early, but then it did occur to me that if Spielman can be complemented on anything, he's been really good at spotting d-linman in the middle to late rounds. Some of the guys they ended up with are now the guys I'm most excited to see due to that track record.

Agreed. Taking Joseph out of the picture as he was signed as a FA, of the other 9 DL on roster last season, IIRC, they were 3 3rd rounders, a 4th rounder, a 6th, 3 7th's and a UDFA. Could be slightly off there, but pretty close. Shows an eye for talent and a good defensive staff, especially Patterson who has to be the best DL coach around. I like different things about each of the lineman we drafted and think all make the club, even Willekes.

And is it just me but are you as excited as I am to see what Watts does his 2nd season especially?
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#110 DocBauer

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 06:05 PM

One guy in particular I’m excited about is DT James Lynch. Generating pressure from the interior DL was sorely lacking last year... Lynch led the nation with 70 QB pressures, a 1st team All American, 13 sacks and 19.5 TFL for Baylor. He cuts right in front of the line for 3 technique!


I think Shamar still has the early leg up on the #3 spot due to familiarity, experience and run defense. But I find Lynch exciting and a perfect addition. I'm really excited to see what Watts does in his 2nd year and have a feeling that the now 285lb Mata'afa could really contribute if used right. Read a stunning article on him from a Vikings site that the majority of his snaps in 2019 came from the NT spot in nickel and dime packages. That doesn't make and sense to me.

Lynch should have a real shot at early rotation play, at least. Seems a perfect fit for the 3 spot with a little more development. Seems he's still a little more effort and bull rush rather than technique at this point.
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#111 DocBauer

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 08:07 PM

Three biggest concerns following the draft:

1] Finding CB who can play from all the talent on hand.

2] Finding 2 G who can play between Samoa, Duo and Elflein getting his crap together.

3] Can Kubiak find a way to mesh a collection of slot receivers to cover the wideout portion of the receiver corps?

Still a lot of talent on this team, but I'm not sure which of these concerns me more.
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#112 Vanimal46

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Posted 29 April 2020 - 07:50 AM

Three biggest concerns following the draft:

1] Finding CB who can play from all the talent on hand.

2] Finding 2 G who can play between Samoa, Duo and Elflein getting his crap together.

3] Can Kubiak find a way to mesh a collection of slot receivers to cover the wideout portion of the receiver corps?

Still a lot of talent on this team, but I'm not sure which of these concerns me more.


The IOL continues to be my biggest worry. We’ve seen lots of offenses with talented skill players crumble because of a bad OL. I certainly hope Samia, Udoh and potentially Cleveland are ready to step up this year.

Defense is a ying/yang between coverage and QB pressure. If the DL can bring the heat, it can mask an inexperienced secondary. If they re-sign Griffen I feel good about the DL’s ability to get to the QB quickly and often.
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#113 DocBauer

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Posted 29 April 2020 - 05:17 PM

The IOL continues to be my biggest worry. We’ve seen lots of offenses with talented skill players crumble because of a bad OL. I certainly hope Samia, Udoh and potentially Cleveland are ready to step up this year.
Defense is a ying/yang between coverage and QB pressure. If the DL can bring the heat, it can mask an inexperienced secondary. If they re-sign Griffen I feel good about the DL’s ability to get to the QB quickly and often.


Agreed on pressure helping cover up the secondary. It also helps if Hughes is 100% and Hill keeps his head on straight. Having a pair of Pro Bowl safeties sure doesn't hurt. I still wonder about Griffen coming back. It seems a viable option for both parties. But I think there's only about $8M in cap space at the moment. Despite drafting 3 CB and signing an UDFA there that has a real shot, they could still sign one of the decent veteran options out there on the cheap. Does that blow up a plan to go young? Does it diminish Griffen coming back? (Nobody else seems to be knocking at his door at the moment).

And then what about G? Other than Kline deciding to come back, are there any other G options out there worth looking at? I don't see any way that $8M brings in anything more than 2 guys. So where does the priority lie?

I'm not objecting to the draft, how it played out, or the talent brought in. But the G situation is disappointing. I think Cleveland is a great fit, but even if he comes in and surprises and is ready the way O'Neill was, I don't like moving Reiff to G after the Remmers fiasco. But the coaches are far smarter and more in tune with their roster than we are. Maybe it would be a great fit. But trusting Elflein to suddenly turn it around, and trusting in a pair of 2nd yr guys like Samia and Udoh who barely saw the field in 2019 is scary. Collins can't stay healthy, Dozier is a decent backup, and they refuse to play Jones even when he looks solid. Really perplexed here.

So I repeat, with about $8M available to still spend, where do you look to use it?
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#114 Mike Sixel

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Posted 29 April 2020 - 09:28 PM

Nothing will matter if Kirk is hit all the time, and Dalvin only lasts 10 games because he's hit constantly.....ignoring OG AGAIN will doom this team.

 

Eiflin is TERRIBLE at his job.

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It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#115 gunnarthor

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Posted 30 April 2020 - 02:48 PM

I wonder if more hurry-up offense tempo, more 3 step drops, less direct under center will be implemented this year. I know Cousins is pretty good at play action and being under center but if the middle of the line is caving, maybe it makes sense for a change in philosophy. 


#116 DocBauer

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Posted 30 April 2020 - 07:34 PM

Nothing will matter if Kirk is hit all the time, and Dalvin only lasts 10 games because he's hit constantly.....ignoring OG AGAIN will doom this team.
 
Eiflin is TERRIBLE at his job.


Which I still don't get. The guy had the resume coming out. He looked like a potential fixture after his first year. I can understand a poor season following a pair of surgeries, not being able to work out properly, etc. But he looked just awful at times last year especially in pass pro, stiff, no balance or footwork, and get bowled over at times.
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#117 DocBauer

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Posted 01 May 2020 - 08:05 PM

Football is far away, especially for us Twins fans waiting and hoping for some kind of season. But the draft and the 2020 Viking season is still in my forefront thoughts at the moment. And while I may be a bit old school at times in my thinking, I believe fully 100% that one thing has never changed: the game still comes down to the DL and OL.

Couple things I don't get:

1] How can Hill actually look pretty good when he comes off the bench, and seems to have everything you want and need in an OT, but never perform in extended opportunity? Is that all be is? Is he a slow learner? Is he strong enough to play G and maybe that's where he should be, less isolated?

2] Why can't Collins, who looked a potential UDFA steal just stay healthy for once and show what he can do? (Oh yeah...Vikings curse). I actually believed he was ready to challenge Elflein for the LG spot last season.

3] How can Elflein go from such a promising young interior OL to paper tiger so quickly? I absolve him from year 2 due to dual surgeries. But to play so poorly at G, a position he has played before and seems to have the skill set for in year 3 is just amazing to me.

4] The Vikings traded for Jones, keep re-signing him, and he plays well when inserted, or in the preseason, but they won't play him when other G stink up the joint.

The Vikings have enough $ room to bring back the solid Kline if bridges aren't burned. They have enough draft capital already built up for next year to make a trade. They have a couple big, talented young guys to "audition" for G as they've stated it's open season.

I find myself very intrigued by Brandel, Hinton and Lacina as projectable prospects a year from now. Stronger, more polish, Brandel comes from a lower power 5 conference with vast experience. He COULD be a legit swing tackle. Hinton and Lacina could be easily dismissed. And then you look at size, speed, strength and accolades and realize a year of development could see them as legitimate contenders for at least viable backup options. But none of their potential speaks to 2020.

Kubiak is in charge of the offense, clearly. His boy, Dennison, is well respected, and in charge of the OL. Reiff should be solid for one more year while Cleveland develops. RT is fine. Bradbury shows real potential. But with all the draft options presented to us, and nobody brought in early, that either means the FO and coaching staff are idiots, or they actually believe Udoh, Samoa and others really have the ability to step forward. If they're wrong, it could be a long and brutal season.
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#118 DocBauer

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Posted 04 May 2020 - 08:47 PM

Offensive MVP for the Vikings in 2020? Kubiak!

Jefferson needs to gain a couple pounds of strength to play outside at times, which he has done. Thielen has played outside at times. Bush Johnson is not small, but might be a best fit as a slot receiver, though he seems to also have a complete game. Osborn has played outside, and seems to have the quicks and speed to be outside but with limited size. Perhaps young veteran Sharpe, the biggest receiver on the roster, can find his potential with a new team. Smith, the underrated Conklin and surprise Dillon have tons of potential.

But run heavy offense or not, assuming the OL can be solid, you need to find a way a slot heavy receiving corps can all function to the best of their abilities.
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#119 DocBauer

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 09:35 PM

Cook wants a new contract. Big surprise, right? He is vastly talented and dynamic! He is the best, most dangerous and talented player we have had at the position since Robert Smith. All due respect to AP, we are talking about all around dangerous ability. But he is also somewhat injury prone. And there are early reports....EARLY and "scared" reports about 2020 and no fans, etc...where the NFL could potentially be facing a salary cap reduction.

We all know this is fluid, as are a lot of things in life right now.

Cook is right to blow up his rookie contract as we've seen hundreds of times? Injuries and the world in general he's out of his mind if he expects top $ at this time? What do you say?
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#120 Vanimal46

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 09:26 AM

 

Cook wants a new contract. Big surprise, right? He is vastly talented and dynamic! He is the best, most dangerous and talented player we have had at the position since Robert Smith. All due respect to AP, we are talking about all around dangerous ability. But he is also somewhat injury prone. And there are early reports....EARLY and "scared" reports about 2020 and no fans, etc...where the NFL could potentially be facing a salary cap reduction.

We all know this is fluid, as are a lot of things in life right now.

Cook is right to blow up his rookie contract as we've seen hundreds of times? Injuries and the world in general he's out of his mind if he expects top $ at this time? What do you say?

 

 

I learned that with the new CBA, players have little to no leverage to hold out anymore. So this is pretty much an empty threat. In order for the last season of his contract to accrue, he needs to attend training camp and play in a minimum of 6 games. If he skips training camp and plays in the minimum 6 games he will be an RFA instead of unrestricted. Which, honestly, would be ideal if he ended up as an RFA. Slap a 1st or 2nd round tender on him and get compensation back if he signs elsewhere. 

 

I subscribe to the belief that smart teams should continue to cycle through RBs on rookie contracts, and let them go when it's time to pay a lengthy extension. If Dalvin indeed sits out the first 10 games of the season, we have a capable committee to pick up the slack with Mattison and Boone. 

 

I hope Rick plays hard ball and doesn't make the mistake of giving him a lengthy extension. A stud RB is not needed in a Kubiak offense. Average RBs have produced monster seasons in his scheme for years. 

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