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#41 Monkeypaws

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 11:51 AM

 

This was the largest and best free agent starting pitching class in years, maybe decades. They had one, huge, glaring, weakness.

So far, they've added a number five starter, and a guy who won't be healthy until July.

Would you can that a success?

 

One thing all free agents have in common is free-will. They sign where they want to, and not always for top dollar. I can't fault Falvine for that. They made offers that weren't accepted. 

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#42 jorgenswest

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 11:58 AM

I'm pretty sure the bar for Bailey to stay in the rotation past May 10th is considerably lower than that. But you might be right by July.


I think the bar will be set by the other 4 pitchers. If they are out pitching him I think they stay in the rotation.

#43 Riverbrian

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 01:59 PM

 

I'm ok with this type of signing as long as we load up on depth and play the hot hand. They did bench Schoop last year maybe they will not be averse to cutting their losses with a pitcher.

 

This is my primary fear (I'm almost single issue minded on the subject) and it drives almost all of my personal viewpoints on roster construction that I mention frequently. 

 

I never want to see a Logan Morrison situation ever again. I mean ever, ever, ever...because it is completely pointless and counter-productive. You can't let a player playing that badly play everyday without seeking a better alternative.

 

I consider Martin Perez to be the latest example of Logan Morrison so I don't believe we are out of the woods yet but we need to get out of those woods immediately. 

 

Any team that allows a below par performer to play everyday not only kills your chances for winning in the current season but it also kills your chances for future development, which kills your chances of crawling out of the hole created by sub-par play with a longer term future year possibility in hand, which in turn slows your rebuild to the point of waiting longer to being competitive again.

 

In my opinion, this is the primary reason our Twins have taken (WAYYY) too long to return to competitive baseball and now that we are competitive again... it is still important to ensure that we remain competitive for a longer window.

 

The primary reason for our lengthy stay in the doldrums has been rewarding of average to below average performance with everyday jobs. Settling for average to below average performance and not seeking improvement from other options. 

 

I support the right for the front office to add anybody they think can do the job and give them a job. However, once handed the job, they must perform or lose that job. It matters not what the past track record is or the amount of money you are paying him. If they think Homer Bailey is the guy, I will support that decision just like I did when they thought Martin Perez was the guy last off-season. 

 

My support ends based on performance. With Martin Perez so fresh in my memory... my caution flag is already raised with Homer Bailey because the front office demonstrated a stubbornness trying to make Martin Perez work. Neither, 7 million dollars or spin rates on a spreadsheet should allow Bailey to continue with sub-par numbers without an alternative sought.:)

 

It's important this year. We have multiple minor league pitchers on the cusp and we can't be looking for the next Homer Bailey next year to replace the Homer Bailey of this year. One or two of those minor league pitchers on the cusp need to be sufficiently auditioned for inclusion on next years roster. Who will it be?

 

We gotta find out. 

 

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#44 Mike Sixel

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:16 PM

 

They also signed Odo and Pineda and we still have 2 months left. So far they have signed the free agent pitchers Gleeman had ranked as the 6th,8th and 13th best available. Something like that. Plus wherever he had Bailey ranked. Hill was at 13 because of availability concerns but if healthy he will pitch as well as the best on the list. One more big acquisition, either Donaldson or a trade for a pitcher and we are looking pretty good. Hard to be patient though.

 

The KEY WORD was added.......added was the key word in the post. 

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#45 Mike Sixel

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:17 PM

 

One thing all free agents have in common is free-will. They sign where they want to, and not always for top dollar. I can't fault Falvine for that. They made offers that weren't accepted. 

 

Agreed, but it is their job to improve the team. If they can't convince free agents to come here, they need to improve on that ability. That's part of their job, just like every executive in their position. 

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#46 USAFChief

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:17 PM

So the only scenario where the FO could succeed this off-season was to sign one of a small handful of big name free agent starting pitchers? I would hope that the line between failing and succeeding would be a broader scope and include at least a few more options than that.

by their own parameters, they failed. They need impact pitching, they stated they would pursue it, impact pitching was available, and they didn't get any for nothing but money. Money that was available.

They can perhaps trade for pitching, but impact pitching will be difficult to get, and extremely costly to their other stated goal of "sustained contention."

So yes. They needed to get one or more of the larger than normal group of FA impact pitchers. It's a failed offseason, by definition.

Adding Donaldson would be a great move, and I hope they do, but it won't mean the offseason wasnt a failure. Just less so.
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#47 DocBauer

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:28 PM

This is my primary fear (I'm almost single issue minded on the subject) and it drives almost all of my personal viewpoints on roster construction that I mention frequently.

I never want to see a Logan Morrison situation ever again. I mean ever, ever, ever... because it is completely pointless and counter-productive. You can't let a player playing that badly play everyday without seeking a better alternative.

I consider Martin Perez to be the latest example of Logan Morrison so I don't believe we are out of the woods yet but we need to get out of those woods immediately.

Any team that allows a below par performer to play everyday not only kills your chances for winning in the current season but it also kills your chances for future development, which kills your chances of crawling out of the hole created by sub-par play with a longer term future year possibility in hand, which in turn slows your rebuild to the point of waiting longer to being competitive again.

In my opinion, this is the primary reason our Twins have taken (WAYYY) too long to return to competitive baseball and now that we are competitive again... it is still important to ensure that we remain competitive for a longer window.

The primary reason for our lengthy stay in the doldrums has been rewarding of average to below average performance with everyday jobs. Settling for average to below average performance and not seeking improvement from other options.

I support the right for the front office to add anybody they think can do the job and give them a job. However, once handed the job, they must perform or lose that job. It matters not what the past track record is or the amount of money you are paying him. If they think Homer Bailey is the guy, I will support that decision just like I did when they thought Martin Perez was the guy last off-season.

My support ends based on performance. With Martin Perez so fresh in my memory... my caution flag is already raised with Homer Bailey because the front office demonstrated a stubbornness trying to make Martin Perez work. Neither, 7 million dollars or spin rates on a spreadsheet should allow Bailey to continue with sub-par numbers without an alternative sought. :)

It's important this year. We have multiple minor league pitchers on the cusp and we can't be looking for the next Homer Bailey next year to replace the Homer Bailey of this year. One or two of those minor league pitchers on the cusp need to be sufficiently auditioned for inclusion on next years roster. Who will it be?

We gotta find out.


I feel part of the reason Perez got such a long leash was based on hope from his early season performance, and maybe a feeling of not putting too much pressure on too many of the kids at once.

Where I feel positive that they won't continue to play someone not performing is moving on from Parker, and others, in the pen, or embracing Arraez daily over Schoop. I hope I'm right, but I think we may be moving beyond the "pay 'em so play 'em" mantra.
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#48 jorgenswest

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:32 PM

If we get to the trade deadline and Bailey is a better than league average pitcher as Perez did last year I will be pleased.

Of course Perez was at an age where he was in the prime of his career so there may have been more reason for encouragement and too much patience with his two awful starts to begin August.

Morrison was nowhere near a league average player nor was he 28.

Perez was a poor pitcher after the trade deadline but articles about his fall came well into the second half. Andrew Thames wrote one for TD in August 11 and szymborski and Fangraphs had one August 12. The Twins might have pulled the plug August 12 but this was not the season long struggle of Morrison.

I don’t see that comparison and I really hope we get league average pitching from Bailey that we saw from Perez through July.

#49 SwainZag

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:33 PM

 

by their own parameters, they failed. They need impact pitching, they stated they would pursue it, impact pitching was available, and they didn't get any for nothing but money. Money that was available.

They can perhaps trade for pitching, but impact pitching will be difficult to get, and extremely costly to their other stated goal of "sustained contention."

So yes. They needed to get one or more of the larger than normal group of FA impact pitchers. It's a failed offseason, by definition.

Adding Donaldson would be a great move, and I hope they do, but it won't mean the offseason wasnt a failure. Just less so.

 

“I can’t put a number or where a guy is or what that means, but we’re going to target impact pitching,” Twins CBO Derek Falvey said. “What that looks like? I can’t predict that today, just because I don’t know how exactly the market’s going to play out through the course of the winter. But I can tell you it’s highly likely that we’re going to spend a lot of time focused on: ‘How do we acquire on that side of the ball?'”

 

There is more to the quote as well that he mentions free agents and the trade front.Since when does targeting mean.....we will for sure sign one of the top 5 free agent pitchers or consider ourselves failures?

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#50 DocBauer

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:40 PM

“I can’t put a number or where a guy is or what that means, but we’re going to target impact pitching,” Twins CBO Derek Falvey said. “What that looks like? I can’t predict that today, just because I don’t know how exactly the market’s going to play out through the course of the winter. But I can tell you it’s highly likely that we’re going to spend a lot of time focused on: ‘How do we acquire on that side of the ball?'”

There is more to the quote as well that he mentions free agents and the trade front. Since when does targeting mean.....we will for sure sign one of the top 5 free agent pitchers or consider ourselves failures?


How many times can I hit the LIKE button before I get in trouble or my phone blows up on me?

Understand frustration, disappointment, optimism, etc. But the ENTIRE context of the quote, what has happened, and what might yet happen, all have to be considered.

This is directed at nobody in particular, just my own thoughts and commentary. The quote never stated any guarantee one of the top 4-5 FA was going to be brought on board no matter what. In fact, to me, the first step, and what I'm extremely grateful happened, was bringing Oddo and Pineda back. They are impact guys.

Now, I wanted more. I still want more. But I think any disappointment I feel is level headed in how things have played out so far.
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#51 Mike Sixel

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:41 PM

 

“I can’t put a number or where a guy is or what that means, but we’re going to target impact pitching,” Twins CBO Derek Falvey said. “What that looks like? I can’t predict that today, just because I don’t know how exactly the market’s going to play out through the course of the winter. But I can tell you it’s highly likely that we’re going to spend a lot of time focused on: ‘How do we acquire on that side of the ball?'”

 

There is more to the quote as well that he mentions free agents and the trade front.Since when does targeting mean.....we will for sure sign one of the top 5 free agent pitchers or consider ourselves failures?

 

What good is targeting if you miss the target? Is all we care about effort?

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#52 USAFChief

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:56 PM

“I can’t put a number or where a guy is or what that means, but we’re going to target impact pitching,” Twins CBO Derek Falvey said. “What that looks like? I can’t predict that today, just because I don’t know how exactly the market’s going to play out through the course of the winter. But I can tell you it’s highly likely that we’re going to spend a lot of time focused on: ‘How do we acquire on that side of the ball?'”

There is more to the quote as well that he mentions free agents and the trade front. Since when does targeting mean.....we will for sure sign one of the top 5 free agent pitchers or consider ourselves failures?

so how do they acquire on "that side of the ball"?

And how do they justify using trade assets instead of money, if they can find a trade partner?

The team has clear needs. They haven't addressed them, IMO, and I doubt they can.
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#53 Channing1964

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 05:20 PM

Winning the division with Berrios, Pineda, Odorizzi, Bailey, and Hill is easy. winning a playoff series is impossible.

#54 Riverbrian

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 06:03 PM

 

I feel part of the reason Perez got such a long leash was based on hope from his early season performance, and maybe a feeling of not putting too much pressure on too many of the kids at once.

Where I feel positive that they won't continue to play someone not performing is moving on from Parker, and others, in the pen, or embracing Arraez daily over Schoop. I hope I'm right, but I think we may be moving beyond the "pay 'em so play 'em" mantra.

 

That would be my guess as well. They wanted to get Perez back to April/May performance. 

 

However, that can be done from the back of the bullpen while he works on stuff. 

 

As for the kids and pressure. I sure hope not because it is pressure now or pressure later (like in the playoffs). The kids get thrown to the Wolves as far as I'm concerned.:)

 

If they need a pressure adjustment... start the adjustment immediately. 

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#55 DocBauer

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 06:45 PM

That would be my guess as well. They wanted to get Perez back to April/May performance.

However, that can be done from the back of the bullpen while he works on stuff.

As for the kids and pressure. I sure hope not because it is pressure now or pressure later (like in the playoffs). The kids get thrown to the Wolves as far as I'm concerned. :)

If they need a pressure adjustment... start the adjustment immediately.


Agree 100%. But reflecting back, Gibson was beginning to have issues as well. And 1 kid in the rotation at a time may have been their thinking.

But I agree, you give the kid of choice a shot, or you don't. (Did I just channel Yoda there?) When 2020 rolls around, and there is opportunity arises early on with Pineda out, I hope they just "go for it" with their youngster of choice. Maybe even piggyback a couple of them.
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#56 sweetmusicviola16

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 07:07 PM

 

This was the largest and best free agent starting pitching class in years, maybe decades. They had one, huge, glaring, weakness.

So far, they've added a number five starter, and a guy who won't be healthy until July.

Would you can that a success?

The thing is they've had since mid season of 2017 to address this weakness. What have we gotten since then? A trade for Jaimie Garcia. A Martin Perez signing. The signing now of Bailey and an injured Hill. The best they have done was to sign Lance Lynn as a last resort for him. This is failure at its worst.

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#57 sweetmusicviola16

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 07:13 PM

 

Winning the division with Berrios, Pineda, Odorizzi, Bailey, and Hill is easy. winning a playoff series is impossible.

We wish it would be easy channing but I'm not so sure it will be quite as smooth sailing as last season. Cleveland has a much better rotation than we do and they have Lindor, Ramirez and some other solid players. CWS will not be easy wins this season either, not like the past. 3rd place would not be a surprise in the least to me. 

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#58 Sconnie

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 07:30 PM

Great article Nick! My feelings exactly!

#59 ashbury

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 07:56 PM

The thing is they've had since mid season of 2017 to address this weakness. What have we gotten since then? A trade for Jaimie Garcia. A Martin Perez signing. The signing now of Bailey and an injured Hill. The best they have done was to sign Lance Lynn as a last resort for him. This is failure at its worst.

Odorizzi and Pineda seem like a couple of other arms worth mentioning in this list.

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#60 DocBauer

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 07:58 PM

Odorizzi and Pineda seem like a couple of other arms worth mentioning in this list.


Why do so many discount keeping these guys in the fold. Baffles me!
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