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#1 Parker Hageman

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:57 AM

This is beating a dead-horse, I know.

The Gold Glove Awards were announced last night in an oddly concocted award show format on ESPN2. In the AL, Baltimore Orioles' shortstop JJ Hardy was the recipient of the hardware for that position. So now, the Twins have traded away a 30-home run, Gold Glove winning shortstop.

Since trading him, the Twins have had a -5.2 UZR/150 at the position (third-worst in the AL) along with a .280 weighted on-base average (third lowest). Meanwhile, the Orioles have hit the most home runs at the position (52 compared to the Twins' 18) and the O's have had the third-highest UZR/150 (9.6) in baseball.

How do you feel about the team's future at this pivotal position?

#2 stringer bell

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:02 AM

I find it far more significant that the O's UZR is high than whether or not JJ won the Gold Glove. I actually think he probably deserved it, but the Gold Glove is perhaps the worst award given by MLB. Several marginal defenders have won the award and some (Palmeiro) have won when they mostly have served as a DH.

#3 Parker Hageman

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:05 AM

Right, the Gold Glove is often a travestshamockery and you could argue that Brendon Ryan was a superior defender, but I think this is league-wide recognition that JJ Hardy is very much an elite defender and jives with the advanced defensive statistics.

#4 Winston Smith

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:06 AM

No doubt Gardy is happy he has shortstops that play the way he did and not Hardy.

May all our prospects be All Stars and the beer be free.


#5 70charger

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:11 AM

Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure there were more than a few here (maybe with paper bags over their heads now) who were fine with jettisoning the fragile Hardy for the next big thing from Japan.

Besides, to reiterate, Gold Gloves are kind of stupid. Mike Trout didn't win one? That pretty much says it all.

#6 Boom Boom

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:12 AM

Hardy was a pansy who missed too much time with that little wrist boo-boo he "had". Also he's slow.

But seriously, I don't think Dozier has the defensive ability to stick at shortstop and I think Florimon is Juan Castro v2. Whoever the Twins shortstop of the future is, I don't think he's on the roster right now.

#7 gunnarthor

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:15 AM

Yeah, MI is a bit of blackhole for us but we do have a handful of legit prospects in the pipeline - Rosario, Micheal, Polanco, Santana. I suspect next year we'll have Carroll (who isn't that bad) and a pu-pu platter again.

I wonder if Span gets traded for a MI and a pitcher.

#8 edavis0308

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:25 AM

How did Jeter not win? Rigged!

#9 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:41 AM

Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure there were more than a few here (maybe with paper bags over their heads now) who were fine with jettisoning the fragile Hardy for the next big thing from Japan.Besides, to reiterate, Gold Gloves are kind of stupid. Mike Trout didn't win one? That pretty much says it all.

Yes, GGs are stupid, why else would Jeter have a collection?That said, this site didn't exist, but I seem to remember very few people thinking that trading Hardy was a good thing over at BYTO... myself included.

#10 Twins Twerp

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:42 AM

We need to draft MI and SP only. No more Relief Pitchers, outfielders, or corner outfielders. Maybe a few catchers now and then. The next stud SS for the Twins will be the first in my 25 year lifetime.

#11 nicksaviking

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:53 AM

Had the Twins drafted Hardy, he surely would not have ended up as a SS. His size and (lack of) speed would have convinced the Twins he wouldn't have the range for SS long before he would have reached the majors.

My biggest issue with the Hardy loss lies in the rumors that the Twins and Hardy butted heads on his reluctance to hit to all fields. Willingham and Plouffe showed this year that for right handed hitters, Hardy's philosopy was the correct one at Target Field.

#12 Badsmerf

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:56 AM

Fail.
Do or do not. There is no try.

#13 twinsnorth49

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:57 AM

What future at MI ?

The worst part about losing JJ is that we got jack for him.

#14 johnnydakota

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:59 AM

No doubt Gardy is happy he has shortstops that play the way he did and not Hardy.

nailed it

#15 Willihammer

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:03 AM

One of the sweetest moments from the Jr interview. John: Hardy scores outstanding in defensive metrics. Jr: He does? Unreal.

#16 Riverbrian

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:30 AM

What future at MI ?

The worst part about losing JJ is that we got jack for him.


Bingo... It's not the players we have lost and what they could be doing for us now.

It's what we got in return and what those acquired players are NOT doing for us.

#17 Seth Stohs

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:34 AM

I didn't have a problem with trading Hardy at the time. I think if they would have received two relievers who were at least decent it wouldn't have been so bad. But getting nothing for him, and then him going and having his one great year last year kind of combined to a perfect storm. I'm surprised he didn't win the Gold Glove last year when he hit better.

#18 Jim Crikket

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:51 AM

By the time the Twins traded Hardy, they already had signed Nishioka, so it wasn't exactly a surprise. While he hadn't been an All-Star by any means, with the Twins, he certainly was an improvement over what we'd seen at SS prior to his arrival. Nishioka was an entertaining sideshow initially, but even among those of us who didn't see Hardy as being terrific, I think the reaction was more along the lines of, "OK, you think this is an improvement... you'd better be right." Obviously, the Twins weren't right and the fact that the players they got in return bombed just made things worse.

I'm happy for Hardy that he's been having success and congratulations to the Orioles on getting the best end of this particular trade.
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#19 GCTF

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:11 AM

What future at MI ?

The worst part about losing JJ is that we got jack for him.


C'mon, who'll ever forget the time Jim Hoey struck that guy out.

In between walking 3 and hitting two.

There is no May and Mayer. They're made up.


#20 LewFordLives

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:15 AM

What future at MI ?

The worst part about losing JJ is that we got jack for him.


C'mon, who'll ever forget the time Jim Hoey struck that guy out.

In between walking 3 and hitting two.


I forgot;-)

#21 mike wants wins

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:21 AM

One of the worst trades ever. I thought they had signed Nishioka to play 2nd, with Hardy at SS. They have this picture in their head that Hardy and college players do not align with.

#22 PseudoSABR

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:25 AM

We didn't need a gold glove award to tell us Hardy was a good defender. In fact with Jones winning over Trout, I think the gold glove works against Hardy's ability to play defense. Gold glove is a hustle/good guy award.

#23 old nurse

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:28 AM

We need to draft MI and SP only. No more Relief Pitchers, outfielders, or corner outfielders. Maybe a few catchers now and then. The next stud SS for the Twins will be the first in my 25 year lifetime.


By your picture I thought you were around for Roy Smalley
BTW Aren't players with home run potential usually at a corner position to begin with?

Edited by old nurse, 31 October 2012 - 11:34 AM.


#24 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:29 AM

One of the worst trades ever.


Ryne Sandberg and the Philadelphia Phillies disagree.

#25 gunnarthor

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:48 AM

One of the worst trades ever. .


Bit of an overstatement. We got rid of one year of Hardy, it's not remotely the worst trade ever. And, frankly, it was a very defensible trade at the time. Hardy missed a lot of games in 2010, leaving Gardy with a 24 man bench. His play had declined two years in a row and he was due a large raise in his arbitration year. The Twins decided that money would be better spent on Thome and Pavano.

#26 StormJH1

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:59 AM

By the time the Twins traded Hardy, they already had signed Nishioka, so it wasn't exactly a surprise. While he hadn't been an All-Star by any means, with the Twins, he certainly was an improvement over what we'd seen at SS prior to his arrival. Nishioka was an entertaining sideshow initially, but even among those of us who didn't see Hardy as being terrific, I think the reaction was more along the lines of, "OK, you think this is an improvement... you'd better be right." Obviously, the Twins weren't right and the fact that the players they got in return bombed just made things worse.

I'm happy for Hardy that he's been having success and congratulations to the Orioles on getting the best end of this particular trade.



That's right. The Twins basically got a free pass at the time because there was excitement over this Japanese shortstop they were bringing over, who was going to hit like Ichiro and field like Omar Vizquel. When those predictions turned out to be jussssst a bit off, we were left holding the bag.

#27 StormJH1

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:05 PM

One of the worst trades ever. I thought they had signed Nishioka to play 2nd, with Hardy at SS. They have this picture in their head that Hardy and college players do not align with.


Actually no. I mean, we can't say for sure what Bill Smith and Gardy were thinking at the time (as opposed to publicly saying), but I'm fairly certain that Nishioka was understood to be the Opening Day shortstop, since he was a "Gold Glove" equivalent at that position in Japan. It's not like the Japanese infields are smaller or anything. Only when they got him into Spring Training did they have concerns about hit arm strength enough that Gardy moved him to 2B. Only took him a week to break his leg there because he didn't know how to bail out of DP situations.

Even when Nishioka fielded a ball cleanly, he had to get a rid of it very quickly because he had no arm. This probably exacerbated his other consistency problems. He was like a poor man's David Eckstein out there, if David Eckstein was also a headcase.

#28 mike wants wins

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:22 PM

I said "I thought", not "they thought". And yes, that was obviously an exaggeration. But it was an awful trade.

#29 Parker Hageman

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:55 PM

[COLOR=#333333]It's not like the Japanese infields are smaller or anything.[/COLOR]


They are all artificial turf -- aside from one field.

#30 h2oface

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:59 PM

My biggest issue with the Hardy loss lies in the rumors that the Twins and Hardy butted heads on his reluctance to hit to all fields. Willingham and Plouffe showed this year that for right handed hitters, Hardy's philosopy was the correct one at Target Field.


according to hardy............. that is not a rumor. that comes from hardy.