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Grandal to the Palehose - Looks like someone else wants to play

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#21 COTwinsFan

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 12:34 PM

 

Fair. I really think this calls into question paying Abreu as much as they did.......they really need to go get at least one SP....

 

I also view everything under the lense of the Twins and I don't think Grandal would be worth that contract to the Twins even if we didn't have Garver. I think the Twins need to take all of their risk on upside pitching. The Twins have proven to be able to develop and find above league average hitting through both the minor league development and short term contracts to veterans. 

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#22 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 12:41 PM

I would agree if they were playing the lion's share of games, but that just isn't the case anymore. Only a handful of catchers even qualified for leading average type statistics.Here is the list of FAs, and they are all over 30.They won't all get jobs, but the ones that do will still catch.These aren't bat first players.
 
Catchers
Yasmani Grandal (31 years old, 5.2 WAR) -- signed with CWS (11/21)
Robinson Chirinos (36, 2.3)
Jason Castro (33, 1.6)
Travis d’Arnaud (31, 1.6)
Alex Avila (33, 1.3)
Russell Martin (37, 1.2)
Austin Romine (31, 0.9)
Stephen Vogt (35, 0.9)
Martín Maldonado (33, 0.8)
Yan Gomes (32, 0.8)
Francisco Cervelli (34, 0.1)
René Rivera (36, 0.0)
Nick Hundley (36, -0.3)
Matt Wieters (34, -0.3)
Bryan Holaday (32, -0.3)
Drew Butera (36, -0.5)
Jonathan Lucroy (34, -0.5)
Chris Iannetta (37, -0.5)
Welington Castillo (33, -1.0)

Not to mention the Poseys, Martins and Molinas of the world, who are still catching.
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#23 sweetmusicviola16

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 12:54 PM

 

It is. No doubt. But they have the money, apparently. It's a fairly young team overall. I'm guessing they sign an expensive pitcher also. I suppose they could just pocket the money

Who do you see them pursuing?

 

I'll say Wheeler maybe?


#24 gunnarthor

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 12:59 PM

It's a good move. It makes them better. If you squint, you can see a .500 team in Chicago already. They have some serious issues and their lineup is older than I thought but they have some quality young talent as well. I would be very surprised if they aren't a playoff team sometime during Grandal's time with them.

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#25 Mike Sixel

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 01:03 PM

 

Who do you see them pursuing?

 

I'll say Wheeler maybe?

 

I bet they are trying on every SP the Twins are.....we'll see if either wins the competition. 

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It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#26 h2oface

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 01:09 PM

My bet...... the big Grandal regression will start this year, and continue. I am on the record. This contract is an albatross. Grandal and his agent are the big winners here.

 

Did we sign Bumgarner yet?

Edited by h2oface, 21 November 2019 - 01:11 PM.

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#27 Mike Sixel

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 01:16 PM

 

My bet...... the big Grandal regression will start this year, and continue. I am on the record. This contract is an albatross. Grandal and his agent are the big winners here.

 

Did we sign Bumgarner yet?

 

Based on what? 

 

https://blogs.fangra...ulti-year-deal/

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#28 h2oface

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 01:45 PM

 

 

Based on my opinion, and watching him play in LA, especially in the post season of 2017 and 2018. He was very streaky in LA, but when he was hot, he was a force. Hey, I may be wrong, but I may be right. Catchers tend to fall hard and fast. We will see...... 

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#29 snap4birds

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 02:03 PM

The FA signings seem to be pretty quick and for better numbers than expected.The last 2 winters it seemed to take a long time for guys to get offers.Hopefully, that is a thing of the past.I think a large part was certain teams wanting to get out from under the penalty tax.


#30 Dman

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 02:15 PM

 

Grandal played 1B for 20 games last year and has DH as an option for the first time in his career.I think he contributes to more than 2/3 of the games.He had 632 Plate appearances without the DH last year.

 

And with the way McCann wore down last season, he could be very good in a limited role.

 

1st half .316/.371/.502

2nd half .226/.281/.413

 

I wonder if they are copying the Twins to some degree.Have two good catchers and keep them fresh so they can perform better when called upon.Seemed to work well for Garver and Castro this year.There's is a bigger monetary investment but they are a young up and coming team so should be able to afford it and having good catchers should help their young pitching staff as well.I generally like the moves Chicago makes and if their young guys pan out for them they are going to have a monster team shortly.  

Edited by Dman, 21 November 2019 - 02:17 PM.

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#31 Monkeypaws

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 02:23 PM

If Kopech comes back healthy this year, they have quite a few very nice pieces going forward.

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#32 SomeGuy

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 03:29 PM

Where do they go from here? In my opinion they still need at least one veteran SP and one OF. They could also stand to upgrade at 2B (or 3rd if Moncada moves to 2nd) and a semi full time DH would help too even if its another cheap Alonso type signing. The bullpen had a 4.69 FIP and xFIP in 2019 so a signing or two there wouldn't hurt either. Pretty long shopping list.

 

They might not go full contender in 2020 but this was a nice signing that definitely helps. Something like Ryu, Puig and a few budget replacements elsewhere (or a similar combination of talent) would put them in a decent spot though.


#33 Vanimal46

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 03:53 PM

It's a good move. It makes them better. If you squint, you can see a .500 team in Chicago already. They have some serious issues and their lineup is older than I thought but they have some quality young talent as well. I would be very surprised if they aren't a playoff team sometime during Grandal's time with them.


My HAWT Taek is Chicago finishes 2nd in the AL Central in 2020 and challenges for a WC spot. Cleveland's time at the top is over.
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#34 Road trip

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 03:57 PM

 

Based on my opinion, and watching him play in LA, especially in the post season of 2017 and 2018. He was very streaky in LA, but when he was hot, he was a force. Hey, I may be wrong, but I may be right. Catchers tend to fall hard and fast. We will see...... 

 

I agree he is a likely candidate to fall off a cliff.Take a look at his "similar batters through age 30" on Baseball Reference.Nine of the ten stopped hitting by age 32 (The exception being Posada).Catchers as a rule age very badly, even many of the great ones.

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#35 Riverbrian

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:05 PM

The White Sox are up and coming and just around the corner and this type of signing announces their intention to keep turning that corner. 

 

However... With that said... I'm glad they spent resources on an expensive catcher instead of elsewhere. 

 

I typically get resistance when I say things like I'm about to say but will say it anyway. 

 

If I was a GM... I would never pay a big free agent contract for a catcher nor would I trade significant talent to trade for one.  

 

Catcher's don't play every day... You get more bang for the buck investing in other positions. Catchers need rest and they get injured more often. I get that there is a canyon between Grandal and Herrmann and that is what the 73 million is buying but you are still spending your resources in an area where you overall production is limited due to playing time and health.  

 

The 73 Million the White Sox just spent is 73 Million that they won't spend on something that might produce more at another position.  

 

Clubs need to get very serious about growing their own. If they develop extra... trade it because it is over-valued.  

 

 

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#36 ashbury

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:34 PM

 

The White Sox are up and coming and just around the corner and this type of signing announces their intention to keep turning that corner. 

 

However... With that said... I'm glad they spent resources on an expensive catcher instead of elsewhere. 

 

I typically get resistance when I say things like I'm about to say but will say it anyway. 

 

If I was a GM... I would never pay a big free agent contract for a catcher nor would I trade significant talent to trade for one.  

 

Catcher's don't play every day... You get more bang for the buck investing in other positions. Catchers need rest and they get injured more often. I get that there is a canyon between Grandal and Herrmann and that is what the 73 million is buying but you are still spending your resources in an area where you overall production is limited due to playing time and health.  

 

The 73 Million the White Sox just spent is 73 Million that they won't spend on something that might produce more at another position.  

 

Clubs need to get very serious about growing their own. If they develop extra... trade it because it is over-valued.  

Can't agree more. And you didn't mention perhaps the biggest snare: if you have a stud bat at catcher, by whatever means of acquisition, it puts pressure on your roster. Because, if you say "we want that bat in the lineup at DH, even when he's not catching," your manager is going to be constantly begging for some form of third catcher. And you can't attract a top level DH to your team, because he'll know he can't play full time. (In a non-DH league, the problem merely transfers identically to 1B.)

 

If your third-round draft pick (*cough*Realmuto*cough*) turns out to be that stud, so be it, you have one of those so-called nice problems to have - at least until he becomes expensive. But to pay good money for that? No. To invest a high first-round draft pick for that? No again, for me. Apply those scarce resources to other problems.

 

The exception is if you're a rich team. Buy that expensive catcher. Pay for a top-shelf DH. And when it's that catcher's day off, tell him, "nah, rest up. Big game for you tomorrow." You can afford to pay idle resources, even when they are that good, when you are that rich.

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#37 birdwatcher

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:44 PM

 

He's widely regarded as one of the two or three best humans on the planet at his job. I doubt he's underpaid....

Just behind Realmuto and Garver then...

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#38 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 06:12 PM

The principle of not spending good money on players who don’t play every day is suspect to me. It pretty much rules out any free agent starting pitchers better than Odorizzi at this point. :)
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#39 birdwatcher

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 06:32 PM

 

Can't agree more. And you didn't mention perhaps the biggest snare: if you have a stud bat at catcher, by whatever means of acquisition, it puts pressure on your roster. Because, if you say "we want that bat in the lineup at DH, even when he's not catching," your manager is going to be constantly begging for some form of third catcher. And you can't attract a top level DH to your team, because he'll know he can't play full time. (In a non-DH league, the problem merely transfers identically to 1B.)

 

If your third-round draft pick (*cough*Realmuto*cough*) turns out to be that stud, so be it, you have one of those so-called nice problems to have - at least until he becomes expensive. But to pay good money for that? No. To invest a high first-round draft pick for that? No again, for me. Apply those scarce resources to other problems.

 

The exception is if you're a rich team. Buy that expensive catcher. Pay for a top-shelf DH. And when it's that catcher's day off, tell him, "nah, rest up. Big game for you tomorrow." You can afford to pay idle resources, even when they are that good, when you are that rich.

 

I won't criticize CWS by any means for this decision, but I can agree with SwainZag's characterization of it being a hefty price. First for the obvious reason that CWS isn't buying his 2013 production, but instead are obligated for his 2023 production at $18M plus when he'll be 35.

 

B'ref had Grandal's WAR at 2.5 in 625 AB's. (Not sure where MMMordabito's 5.2 number came from). In comparison, to add context, Garver's WAR was 4.0 in 340 AB's, and Castro gave us another 0.7 WAR in 237, although he wore down big time over the final month or so and gave back about 0.9 WAR.

 

But hey, CWS has some cheap stars and has an extra $60M to burn through each year, so they can take these gambles.

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#40 darin617

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 06:40 PM

 

$18.25M per year.A lot of coin for a guy who is going to catch 100 games per year and strike out 1/4 of the time.

Not really, the Twins paid Joe Mauer 23M a year to catch for a couple of years. Then they overpaid for him to play 1st base.

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