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Front Page: Trading for a Young Starter: Sandy Alcantara

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#21 clutterheart

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 10:06 AM

Good god man. Just because someone is young and in the leauge does not make them good.
His peripherals are bad and he would be a JAG on the AAAA shuttle for the twins.

#22 AZTwin

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 10:44 AM

Good god man. Just because someone is young and in the leauge does not make them good.
His peripherals are bad and he would be a JAG on the AAAA shuttle for the twins.


This is correct. Could see him develop as a bullpen guy in the future. But not someone you give top 20 prospects for

#23 Shaitan

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 11:27 AM

If he'd make the team I'm all for it. Based on the original post, I'm not sold he's an improvement or has that high of a ceiling.

 

That said, the arguments I'm reading here that say "trade our prospects for a prospect...because we have too many prospects..." has me scratching my head.

 


#24 Riverbrian

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 11:43 AM

 

If the Marlins fail to sign either (which is likely), there’s atleast a possibility of them going down this route and I think the Twins are right team for them to pair up with given all the quality depth that’s present in the upper levels of our minor league system.

Like they’ve shown with the Gallen/Chisholm and Richards/Sanchez trades, it’s clear that they’re not afraid of giving up young ML talent (like Alcantara) if they believe it’s in the best interests of their future plans.

While I’m sure he wouldn’t be the centerpiece (either Larnach or Duran), I could see Miami having a lot of interest in Gordon. And since they’re in search of competent bats, Cave and Rooker could be targets as well.

 

Anything is possible. Your post is just as legit as mine. 

 

I was shocked to see Syndergaard on the trading block followed by an acquisition of Stroman by the Mets. Things like that demonstrate that the road to be traveled is not always clear and defined. 

 

If I was the GM of the Marlins, I wouldn't be trying to acquire expensive FA bats yet (like is being rumored) but I'm not sure that I would give up young pitching yet either because those young pitchers should have helium to inflate to higher value or at least still be in place when it is time to acquire expensive FA bats. 

 

In other words... If I was to part with one of my young pitchers... the return would have to be high enough to be worth the possible deviation in the plan. 

 

 

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#25 DocBauer

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 11:58 AM

Just being honest, I know nothing about the Marlins. I just don't pay attention to them. So I know pretty much nothing about Alcantara either. But this is the kind of thinking they should be employing. While peripherals may be poor, he showed improvement, is young, controllable and high velocity is always good. Im betting Johnson would love to work with all of that. But there remains real questions here. I'm thinking 1 top 10 guy and 1 in the second 10 and maybe a toss in. Fair? Too high?
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#26 sweetmusicviola16

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 12:57 PM

 

Just being honest, I know nothing about the Marlins. I just don't pay attention to them. So I know pretty much nothing about Alcantara either. But this is the kind of thinking they should be employing. While peripherals may be poor, he showed improvement, is young, controllable and high velocity is always good. Im betting Johnson would love to work with all of that. But there remains real questions here. I'm thinking 1 top 10 guy and 1 in the second 10 and maybe a toss in. Fair? Too high?

Sounds about right to me. Javier and Cellestino or maybe Alcala.

 

We have a strong farm. But we also have a team that is close to WS competitive. We have a young team. I'd just like to see us not waste the strength of the farm by allowing them to be mired in the minors. Now is the time to utilize to add some of the pieces on the ML level that we need. I see what you are describing in Alcantrara and if you get him w/o giving up major pieces then why not? If not him then who?

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#27 cardsfan

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 01:00 PM

It is interesting that both Gallen and Alcantara were both in the Cardinal system. If either were going to be front of rotation pitchers, the Cards would not have traded both for Ozuna.. They may have traded the prospects at peak value. History has shown the Cardinals to be a much better judge of pitching talent than most.
There are people who think that not getting a back of the rotation starter when they come available is a bad thing. It does promote discussion


#28 cardsfan

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 01:04 PM

Zach Gallen was not yet I don't think a top prospect when traded. He probably would have stayed in the minors last season. Same with Alcantra. Hope the Cards didn't make a mistake since they expected more from Ozuna.
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#29 ChrisKnutson

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 03:04 PM

Anything is possible. Your post is just as legit as mine. 
 
I was shocked to see Syndergaard on the trading block followed by an acquisition of Stroman by the Mets. Things like that demonstrate that the road to be traveled is not always clear and defined. 
 
If I was the GM of the Marlins, I wouldn't be trying to acquire expensive FA bats yet (like is being rumored) but I'm not sure that I would give up young pitching yet either because those young pitchers should have helium to inflate to higher value or at least still be in place when it is time to acquire expensive FA bats. 
 
In other words... If I was to part with one of my young pitchers... the return would have to be high enough to be worth the possible deviation in the plan.


A package of Gordon, Duran, and Rooker sounds like a decent starting point. Marlins get a younger replacement for Alcantara, that probably fits better with their timeline of contention, and two potential everyday players for the right side of their infield. Probably could add a lottery ticket like Sands to the deal, but maybe they’d want more certainty in a young bullpen arm like Littell.
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#30 Kelly Vance

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 03:23 PM

I think the point of the article is that the Twins should be looking for young arms on the come. If we cleared out a half dozen mid level prospects plus a Cave or Gordon, it doesn't hurt us because we have a surplus in the OF and IF 

 

This is exactly what I think Falvey will do. 

 

Remember, his trade for Odoorizzi now looks like the work of a genius

 

 

IMHO

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#31 jorgenswest

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 03:32 PM

One more from baseball trade values...

Larnach straight up for Alcantara.

With Kirilloff and Larnach this might be the winter to trade one of those corner pieces for a controllable starting pitcher. Kirilloff would bring a better pitcher if one is available.
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#32 AZTwin

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 04:36 PM

A package of Gordon, Duran, and Rooker sounds like a decent starting point. Marlins get a younger replacement for Alcantara, that probably fits better with their timeline of contention, and two potential everyday players for the right side of their infield. Probably could add a lottery ticket like Sands to the deal, but maybe they’d want more certainty in a young bullpen arm like Littell.


Starting point?? Duran wouldn’t be traded for Sandy straight up. Nor would Rooker. Sandy projects as back the rotation or bullpen type

Edited by AZTwin, 16 November 2019 - 04:36 PM.


#33 ChrisKnutson

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 07:10 PM

Starting point?? Duran wouldn’t be traded for Sandy straight up. Nor would Rooker. Sandy projects as back the rotation or bullpen type


I think I worded that incorrectly, I meant I think that the offer I proposed might be right around what it would take to get a deal done. However, I don’t disagree that that might be an overpayment, although I think Alcantara’s potential is worth overpaying for. I mean, he is a first time all-star with 5 years of control left... Personally, if all it took was Duran, I’d seriously think about pulling the trigger; leaving Gordon and Rooker for another trade (maybe another starter).
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#34 Sconnie

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 07:18 PM

Starting point?? Duran wouldn’t be traded for Sandy straight up. Nor would Rooker. Sandy projects as back the rotation or bullpen type

I would value Duran more. Rooker? Probably not. Corner outfielders are more fungible than 4th starters.

#35 Tom Froemming

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 08:36 PM

Trying to project trade values is nearly impossible, but I think a good way to try to test ideas is by imagining you were a fan of the other team you're dealing with.

 

The Marlins are a rebuilding team that lost 105 games. Alcantara was their second-best player and won't become a free agent until 2025. He's one of the few building blocks that org has who's shown he can produce at the MLB level. Why trade him? Only if you make for damn sure you're getting excess value in return.

 

Not sure this actually matters anymore in Miami, but trading him for a player in the lower levels would send such a terrible message. If I was a Marlins fan, I'd at least want someone who's had success at the Double-A level. Someone who could potentially contribute sometime in 2019. Actually, probably more than one of those guys.

 

Is there a match with the Twins? Again, it's nearly impossible to say for certain, but I'd prefer to use those assets to acquire more of a known commodity at this stage of the Twins' competitive cycle.

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#36 goulik

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 09:22 AM

If Wes Johnson and the brain trust see something they could tweak, a guy that throws complete games and has 197 inning seasons would definitely be worth a #6-#10 prospect. Especially for a young guy still learning.
Too many people think what a rookie player shows is their best. Usually you don’t know what you got until years 3-5. After a meeting with my pitching gurus, I’d make the proposed trade
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#37 sweetmusicviola16

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 10:19 AM

 

Trying to project trade values is nearly impossible, but I think a good way to try to test ideas is by imagining you were a fan of the other team you're dealing with.

 

The Marlins are a rebuilding team that lost 105 games. Alcantara was their second-best player and won't become a free agent until 2025. He's one of the few building blocks that org has who's shown he can produce at the MLB level. Why trade him? Only if you make for damn sure you're getting excess value in return.

 

Not sure this actually matters anymore in Miami, but trading him for a player in the lower levels would send such a terrible message. If I was a Marlins fan, I'd at least want someone who's had success at the Double-A level. Someone who could potentially contribute sometime in 2019. Actually, probably more than one of those guys.

 

Is there a match with the Twins? Again, it's nearly impossible to say for certain, but I'd prefer to use those assets to acquire more of a known commodity at this stage of the Twins' competitive cycle.

Who then would you propose Tom?

 

What I would hate to see is us overpay in trade for a proven commodity, Robbie Ray is one example that comes to my mind. Or continuing to fill our rotation with dregs such as Martin Perez. Hopefully we can sign a Cole or a Wheeler along with a Pineda or a Hamels and feel at ease about the rotation.


#38 Doctor Wu

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 07:45 AM

 

Just being honest, I know nothing about the Marlins. I just don't pay attention to them. So I know pretty much nothing about Alcantara either. But this is the kind of thinking they should be employing. While peripherals may be poor, he showed improvement, is young, controllable and high velocity is always good. Im betting Johnson would love to work with all of that. But there remains real questions here. I'm thinking 1 top 10 guy and 1 in the second 10 and maybe a toss in. Fair? Too high?

That's pretty much my thinking too. I don't know much about Alcantara but these are the types of not-so-flashy trades that the Twins need to make at this point, hoping for another Odorizzi or something even more impressive. Gotta take the chance and even give up some good prospects, but we need more arms.