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Astros Being Investigated for Using Tech to Steal Pitching Signs

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#41 Nine of twelve

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 09:54 PM

I don't remember which season or by whom, but Joe Mauer was accused of stealing signs at one point when he was a base runner at second base. It was noticed that he was grabbing at the ear hole of his helmet before some of the pitches.

I guess I fall into the camp that as long as every team plays under the same conditions sign stealing is part of the game. By same conditions I mean that no electronic or mechanical assistance of any kind may be used.

But really, if teams don't want their signs to be intercepted they simply have to improve the encrypting of their signs. It's really not that hard to do. For example, you could use different indicators or sequences depending on what the batter's uniform number is, or what the on-deck batter's uniform number is. And this can change from game to game or inning to inning or batter to batter. Even Bruce Pearson would be able to do it.

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#42 ashbury

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 10:10 PM

 

I don't remember which season or by whom, but Joe Mauer was accused of stealing signs at one point when he was a base runner at second base. It was noticed that he was grabbing at the ear hole of his helmet before some of the pitches.

I guess I fall into the camp that as long as every team plays under the same conditions sign stealing is part of the game. By same conditions I mean that no electronic or mechanical assistance of any kind may be used.

But really, if teams don't want their signs to be intercepted they simply have to improve the encrypting of their signs. It's really not that hard to do. For example, you could use different indicators or sequences depending on what the batter's uniform number is, or what the on-deck batter's uniform number is. And this can change from game to game or inning to inning or batter to batter. Even Bruce Pearson would be able to do it.

The better the encryption, the better the chance of pitcher or catcher forgetting the system. A crossed-up catcher can be an injurious situation, primarily to the catcher himself but also the umpire.

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#43 Nine of twelve

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Posted 16 November 2019 - 10:22 PM

 

The better the encryption, the better the chance of pitcher or catcher forgetting the system. A crossed-up catcher can be an injurious situation, primarily to the catcher himself but also the umpire.

Of course. But it would be easy to come up with a system that is easy for one team to remember but hard for another team to figure out.

 


#44 The Wise One

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 05:38 AM

 

Of course, pitch framing is just a fancy word for sets a good target and other things....and is about getting a strike called correctly more than getting a ball called a strike.....they aren't the same thing as stealing signs at all. It's part of the actual play, for example, among other differences.

Pitch framing was calledstealing strikes by Maddon when he was with the Rays when he wastalking about Molina saving the team 50 runs.

also https://baseballsava...catcher_framing


#45 Vanimal46

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 10:33 AM



DURING the 2017 playoffs an executive sent an email(!!) asking scouts to help steal signs.

#46 Hrbowski

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 11:07 AM

 



DURING the 2017 playoffs an executive sent an email(!!) asking scouts to help steal signs.

I know pro scouts from nearly every team. It is an expected part of the job.

I hate Trevor Bauer.


#47 Vanimal46

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 11:20 AM

I know pro scouts from nearly every team. It is an expected part of the job.


They're all expected to set up cameras for the specific reason of stealing signs?
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#48 darin617

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 11:30 AM

If I was going to cheat why not have some sort of electronic device on the batter. An electric impulse or something to tip the pitch. One for fastball, two for curveball, etc.


#49 ashbury

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 11:43 AM

If I was going to cheat why not have some sort of electronic device on the batter. An electric impulse or something to tip the pitch. One for fastball, two for curveball, etc.

I don't know about for stealing signs, but I can think of a good use of this technology for any batter who misses the coach's "take" sign more than once. You might have to turn its dial to '11,' though.

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#50 Nine of twelve

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 12:07 PM

 

I don't know about for stealing signs, but I can think of a good use of this technology for any batter who misses the coach's "take" sign more than once. You might have to turn its dial to '11,' though.

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#51 Hrbowski

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 01:28 PM

 

They're all expected to set up cameras for the specific reason of stealing signs?

Yep. The Astros were stealing signs from the dugout. Everybody does that when pro scouting.

I hate Trevor Bauer.


#52 Vanimal46

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 08:11 AM



If every pro scout steals signs, I'm curious why the Astros set up and broke down this particular TV monitor before and after games?
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#53 dex8425

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 12:54 PM

Stealing signs off the pitching coach, or catcher, or pitcher, or 3rd base coach, or 1st base coach, with your eyes and brain, as a player or coach is totally legal and has been part of the game since baseball was invented. Stealing signs with technology and employees specifically tasked for stealing signs is cheating and wrong. Especially if the cameras or binoculars are in centerfield. It absolutely gives an unfair advantage to be able to focus on the catcher's signs the entire game. 

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#54 nicksaviking

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 01:19 PM

 

I know pro scouts from nearly every team. It is an expected part of the job.

 

Not according to the article. Sounds like many of them were mortified that the team was asking them to do this.

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#55 SQUIRREL

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 01:21 PM

 

Stealing signs off the pitching coach, or catcher, or pitcher, or 3rd base coach, or 1st base coach, with your eyes and brain, as a player or coach is totally legal and has been part of the game since baseball was invented. Stealing signs with technology and employees specifically tasked for stealing signs is cheating and wrong. Especially if the cameras or binoculars are in centerfield. It absolutely gives an unfair advantage to be able to focus on the catcher's signs the entire game. 

This is how I see it. Someone mentioned earlier Mauer signaling from 2nd base ... totally legit for players to see things with their eyes and relay the information. But when it is orchestrated to the level the Astros did this, with technology? No, wrong. And I hope they are slapped hard, not lightly, so discourage other teams from doing this, too.

 

And maybe they can find a better way to hide or camouflage the signage between catcher and pitcher. I'm sure teams will look into ways to do this.

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#56 Vanimal46

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 01:43 PM

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#57 Mike Sixel

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 01:56 PM

Once fans think teams cheat, a sport loses fans. Vegas isn't happy about it either.....

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#58 h2oface

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 06:06 AM

 

Once fans think teams cheat, a sport loses fans. Vegas isn't happy about it either.....

 

I guess it depends on what type of cheating, as many still want Pineda resigned, and many don't seem to care anymore about the PED cheating by Polanco and Cruz, and again, love pitch framing. Not the same thing. I know, I know...... but the fans are still loving the game.  

 

And my sympathies to Vegas.... who never ever stack the deck.

 

Personally, I feel stealing signs is stealing signs. Period. It is up to the players to figure out a way that they can't be figured out, or even fool the other team with them, and have them constantly changing. Once they put it out there, it is in the public domain, and the signs are fair game, however they get communicated and used by whoever wants to use them. 

Edited by h2oface, 19 November 2019 - 06:18 AM.

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#59 dex8425

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 10:53 AM

 

 

Personally, I feel stealing signs is stealing signs. Period. It is up to the players to figure out a way that they can't be figured out, or even fool the other team with them, and have them constantly changing. Once they put it out there, it is in the public domain, and the signs are fair game, however they get communicated and used by whoever wants to use them. 

 

The problem with this is if teams expect every opposing team to have a camera or fan with a scope in CF, the games will be 6 hours long.  

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#60 dex8425

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 11:04 AM

 

 

 

And maybe they can find a better way to hide or camouflage the signage between catcher and pitcher. I'm sure teams will look into ways to do this.

 

The solution is to use the system you use with runner on 2nd. Multiple sets of signs. Maybe you're doing first sign, second sign, third sign or last sign. The problem with doing this the whole game is the games take forever. If the pitcher shakes, the catcher has to do the sequence all over again. Then usually the batter steps out. Repeat several times an inning and you've got lots of frustrated pitchers and five hour games. Not good for anyone. 

 

And if there's a camera in CF, it takes significantly less time to figure out the "multiple sets of signs" system. And then you'd have to change the signs over and over. A runner on 2nd has lots to worry about (not getting picked off, what his 3rd base coach sign is, where the fielders are, when to run, etc.) and maybe one or two batters at most, plus he has to be clear on how he's relaying signs to the batter. 

 

With the aid of a simple app and a camera, you can nail the system within one batter. 

 

I really like what Matt Antonelli has to say about this. 

 

 

 

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