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Astros Being Investigated for Using Tech to Steal Pitching Signs

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#241 twinsnorth49

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 01:51 PM

I am going to try to explain it to you, but this will be my only attempt so please read this

The difference between using technology and pitch framing is that one is an art that comes from a player's ability to make pitches better. The other teams and the umpires have knowledge of what pitch framing is and how it happens. Umpires can become aware of who is a great "pitch framer" and adjust accordingly. Stats are used to show who the best and worst pitch framers are. It is out there for public consumption. The key here is there very up front knowledge of this practice and the other team and umpires are aware of it. It happens on the field and players doing the framing are getting no help from anyone.

With this scam the Astros ran the entire team was complicit in this by keeping it a secret. This was a system that employed cameras which relayed real time video to someone who then relayed messages to a player via a wired a device taped inside his uniform. The player was given real time information (something that could never be accomplished through hand signals) about what pitch was coming. As Curt Schilling explained the other day, this system would have killed him because if everyone knew his two seamer was coming they wouldn't have swung. Now they are geared up for tow pitches. To get this in place there were layers of duplicity to this and the other team's pitcher had no way of defending himself against it because they did this without the other team's knowledge. Had the Astros informed the other teams of this there isn't an organization that wouldn't have blown the whistle on them. This was a highly elaborate scam which operated on many levels and if it were ever discovered during a game players would have been ejected, probably the game protested, and lord knows what else.

The fact that you wonder why it's viewed so differently from pitch framing only illustrates the lack of depth and understanding this argument you presented has. It assumes ignorance. It attempts to use generalizations to equate two different things. It shows the details I and others have presented go over your head for some strange reason. Either you understand it or you don't. That is on you, my friend. I cannot break it down in more elementary terms for you.


The fact that this needs to be explained to anybody is ....well.....mind boggling.
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#242 ewen21

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 02:34 PM

 

The fact that this needs to be explained to anybody is ....well.....mind boggling.

 

 

 

Well I just tried to break it down, but rest assured these folks will keep up the analogies and generalizations all the while ignoring the pertinent facts.The most disheartening thing to me are that people are going with the notion that this is baseball being baseball.The attitude dictates, "there's cheating in baseball and that is just the way it is.How is this any different?Why are you making a big deal?"

 

As if you are a dork for questioning integrity anymore.I don't get it.Somehow, to some, I am getting on my high horse with this.I would like to know you, I or anyone is being overly judgmental about this?

I get there are different levels of dishonesty, and in my almost 50 years of watching baseball and attending games, nothing comes close to this with regard to dishonesty.Not even steroids.

 

And to make a comparison to pitch framing? Wow


#243 Monkeypaws

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 03:27 PM

Just strip them of the damn title. That is the best way to get closure here.

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#244 AceWrigley

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 03:35 PM

In an earlier thread after I thought a few comments were getting a little over zealous I wrote, "I think all the fans that attended Astros home games are also complicit and they should ban all attendance for one year. C'mon, it's a game. Getting away with bending/breaking the rules goes as far back as competition was invented." I was joking about the first part. Bending and breaking the rules comes with competition. I like in the NHL, if you have a beef you have to bring it to the Ref's attention during the game, not after. I think some of this applies here. Why didn't a catcher or pitcher stop the game, talk with the umpire and try to stop it WHILE it was occurring?

 

If I'm on the mound and hear that banging and figure out it's the other team possibly illegally stealing signs? I'm telling them to knock it off and if I hear any more banging while I'm pitching, I don't care who it is at the plate, I'm planting a fastball in his ribcage.


#245 AceWrigley

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 03:38 PM

Nascar uses secure tech for team communication during races, why can't Baseball for in-game communication like signs and defensive placement? This would also work for babe watching.


#246 sweetmusicviola16

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 05:11 PM

 

Just strip them of the damn title. That is the best way to get closure here.

This. Strip them of the title. Take away their WS rings. Fine each player a set % of each cheating seasons salary. Suspend every active member of the cheating players, imo somewhere between 20 and 40 games. Including players who are now on other teams. The Astro org has been fined 5mil, make that 50mil. I have zero sympathy for Jim Crane. This isn't too harsh.

 

I've heard people also say we need to forgive and move on because we've all done something wrong in our own lives. I'm all for forgiving. I hold no personal grudge against any of the cheaters. But the integrity of the game is at stake. I want to support ML baseball. ie attend a game or two this season. But I'm not so sure I will based on how Manfred has handled this scandal.


#247 Vanimal46

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 07:25 PM



I thought the Astros liked knowing which pitch was coming? I don’t see the problem here if we bang on a trash can before the bean ball.
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#248 ewen21

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 06:01 PM

 

In an earlier thread after I thought a few comments were getting a little over zealous I wrote, "I think all the fans that attended Astros home games are also complicit and they should ban all attendance for one year. C'mon, it's a game. Getting away with bending/breaking the rules goes as far back as competition was invented." I was joking about the first part. Bending and breaking the rules comes with competition. I like in the NHL, if you have a beef you have to bring it to the Ref's attention during the game, not after. I think some of this applies here. Why didn't a catcher or pitcher stop the game, talk with the umpire and try to stop it WHILE it was occurring?

 

If I'm on the mound and hear that banging and figure out it's the other team possibly illegally stealing signs? I'm telling them to knock it off and if I hear any more banging while I'm pitching, I don't care who it is at the plate, I'm planting a fastball in his ribcage.

This goes far beyond your typical rule bending/breaking.These players have received zero consequences from the league.I would like to know why you are against people laying into these players.


#249 AceWrigley

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 08:57 PM

 

This goes far beyond your typical rule bending/breaking.These players have received zero consequences from the league.I would like to know why you are against people laying into these players.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I believe in penalties being in place for wrong doing and the enforcement of them. It's pretty hard to levy punishment on players 3 years later if they play for other teams as this would unfairly harm organizations who weren't involved in wrong doing. Players/Managers/GM's should have raised their concerns while the cheating was occurring so the league could have dealt with it forth right. Beyond that, if I'm a player and the other team is cheating against me, I'm taking steps to stop it.

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#250 gunnarthor

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 11:36 PM

 

It wasn't a great pitch, location-wise at least.Was it a change up?

Here's the pitch

 

 

Change-up from Chapman on a 2-1 pitch. I'm honestly not sure but it looks like Altuve isn't surprised by a change up there. We don't see him with a slight hitch in his swing. I don't know Chapman's tendencies but I would have guessed in a 2-1 count he'd try to throw something 100mph by the batter. I'm honestly surprised that Altuve waited so well on that pitch. But I don't know if he had a buzzer. But the excuse that he didn't want to tear his shirt makes it look really fishy.

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#251 Vanimal46

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Posted Yesterday, 12:11 PM

More and more star baseball players coming out on record saying they’re disappointed with the lack of punishment on former Astros players. This is going to be ugly.

Makes me wonder if the MLBPA will consider a work stoppage until further punishments are announced? This is a unique case. Typically players tow the company line and defend their own. Not this time...

#252 Nine of twelve

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Posted Yesterday, 01:13 PM

 

Here's the pitch

 

 

Change-up from Chapman on a 2-1 pitch. I'm honestly not sure but it looks like Altuve isn't surprised by a change up there. We don't see him with a slight hitch in his swing. I don't know Chapman's tendencies but I would have guessed in a 2-1 count he'd try to throw something 100mph by the batter. I'm honestly surprised that Altuve waited so well on that pitch. But I don't know if he had a buzzer. But the excuse that he didn't want to tear his shirt makes it look really fishy.

I remember watching this last fall and thinking that Chapman's reaction was not what I would have expected. Instead of appearing angry or stone-faced it was almost like he was in disbelief, like he was wondering how Altuve could have been so ready for that pitch in that situation.