Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Photo

Astros Being Investigated for Using Tech to Steal Pitching Signs

  • Please log in to reply
291 replies to this topic

#221 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Getting Ready to Show Up to ST in the Best Shape of My Life!

  • Member
  • 13,340 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 14 February 2020 - 09:37 AM

I wonder if there will be a Vegas prop bet as to which Astro gets plunked first. I'd put some cash on that.

Do they start right away, first pitch to Springer's ribs, or do they wait for Altuve or Bregman?


My faith in humanity will be restored if there are people dressed up as Oscar the Grouch banging trash cans whenever the Astros come to town.
  • SQUIRREL, birdwatcher, scottz and 10 others like this

#222 SQUIRREL

SQUIRREL

    Rally SQUIRREL!!!!

  • Moderator
  • 25,506 posts

Posted 14 February 2020 - 09:49 AM

My faith in humanity will be restored if there are people dressed up as Oscar the Grouch banging trash cans whenever the Astros come to town.


You should seriously send this suggestion to every team’s marketing departments.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But a skunkweed will always be a skunkweed and instantly recognizable. 


#223 Craig Arko

Craig Arko

    Baseball and thought

  • Member
  • 8,725 posts
  • LocationThe ballpark of the mind

Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:51 AM

 

My faith in humanity will be restored if there are people dressed up as Oscar the Grouch banging trash cans whenever the Astros come to town.

New team mascot outfits.

  • birdwatcher and twinsnorth49 like this
"Be humble for you are made of earth. Be noble for you are made of stars." - Old Serbian proverb

#224 lukeduke1980

lukeduke1980

    Pensacola Blue Wahoos

  • Member
  • 512 posts

Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:17 AM

 

That press conference was pretty tone deaf. I'm now convinced Altuve had some electronic devise on the Chapman homerun, too. 

 

I was sort of joking around when I said the Astros will lead the league in being hit by pitch this year but after this, I really think they will. It'll be interesting to see how MLB and the umpires work these games.

It wasn't a great pitch, location-wise at least.Was it a change up?


#225 akmanak

akmanak

    Pensacola Blue Wahoos

  • Member
  • 507 posts

Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:37 AM

My faith in humanity will be restored if there are people dressed up as Oscar the Grouch banging trash cans whenever the Astros come to town.


I will gladly accept that challenge. Not sure if I can bring a trash can into the stadium though and if I cant what else could I bring?
  • Vanimal46 likes this

#226 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Billy G.O.A.T

  • Moderator
  • 15,549 posts

Posted 14 February 2020 - 12:06 PM

 

My faith in humanity will be restored if there are people dressed up as Oscar the Grouch banging trash cans whenever the Astros come to town.

 

You have my attention, but I am awaiting your plan to sneak them through the metal detectors.

  • Vanimal46 likes this

#227 jkcarew

jkcarew

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,737 posts

Posted 14 February 2020 - 12:30 PM

 

That press conference was pretty tone deaf. I'm now convinced Altuve had some electronic devise on the Chapman homerun, too. 

 

I was sort of joking around when I said the Astros will lead the league in being hit by pitch this year but after this, I really think they will. It'll be interesting to see how MLB and the umpires work these games.

Hopefully, like they handle it in any other game/situation.

 

It's amusing to me to read posts from a community that practically explodes in disapproval every time a pitcher throws at a batter...or even appears to be. Now, the same community seemingly can't wait for a Houston batter to be thrown at (not suggesting you personally, but by the tone/tenor, and explicit remarks from many.)

 

I guess we're seeing where the threshold lies to justify throwing at batters. It's when WE feel offended. 


#228 TFRazor

TFRazor

    Who's on first?

  • Member
  • 705 posts

Posted 14 February 2020 - 01:03 PM

 

My faith in humanity will be restored if there are people dressed up as Oscar the Grouch banging trash cans whenever the Astros come to town.

I want whatever team the astros play on the road first to do a giveaway of team-labeled trash cans

  • Vanimal46 likes this

#229 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Getting Ready to Show Up to ST in the Best Shape of My Life!

  • Member
  • 13,340 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 14 February 2020 - 01:22 PM

You have my attention, but I am awaiting your plan to sneak them through the metal detectors.


If the security people are true baseball fans, they’ll give the nod of approval as you walk through with that trash can!
  • nicksaviking and twinsnorth49 like this

#230 cmoss84

cmoss84

    Pensacola Blue Wahoos

  • Member
  • 531 posts
  • LocationBakersfield, CA

Posted 14 February 2020 - 01:29 PM

Instead of the helmets that hold the ice cream-how about a trash can sundae??

  • birdwatcher, nicksaviking, twinsnorth49 and 2 others like this

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.


#231 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Getting Ready to Show Up to ST in the Best Shape of My Life!

  • Member
  • 13,340 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 14 February 2020 - 02:14 PM



Mike Rizzo of the Nationals is also out record saying he’s not going to let this scandal go until the Astros admit they cheated.
  • birdwatcher likes this

#232 SQUIRREL

SQUIRREL

    Rally SQUIRREL!!!!

  • Moderator
  • 25,506 posts

Posted 14 February 2020 - 03:24 PM

Hopefully, like they handle it in any other game/situation.
 
It's amusing to me to read posts from a community that practically explodes in disapproval every time a pitcher throws at a batter...or even appears to be. Now, the same community seemingly can't wait for a Houston batter to be thrown at (not suggesting you personally, but by the tone/tenor, and explicit remarks from many.)
 
I guess we're seeing where the threshold lies to justify throwing at batters. It's when WE feel offended.


I think there is a difference between condoning a pitcher intentionally hitting a batter, which I do not, and wondering if it will or expecting it to happen, because of the circumstances, despite not condoning it. Players are pissed, rightfully so, but I hope the retribution isn’t this because of the potential for very serious injury, but I do have a feeling it will happen unless more serious fines and/or punishment is levied. I’m not sure how you can walk back the immunity already given, but the Astros players are being pretty slow to acknowledge wrong-doing and to admitting to what degree, imo.

That said, there are some posters here who enjoy the aspect of players taking matters into their own hands and using an intentional plunking to right a wrong, real or ‘unwritteningly’ perceived.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But a skunkweed will always be a skunkweed and instantly recognizable. 


#233 jkcarew

jkcarew

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,737 posts

Posted 14 February 2020 - 05:00 PM

 

I think there is a difference between condoning a pitcher intentionally hitting a batter, which I do not, and wondering if it will or expecting it to happen, because of the circumstances, despite not condoning it. Players are pissed, rightfully so, but I hope the retribution isn’t this because of the potential for very serious injury, but I do have a feeling it will happen unless more serious fines and/or punishment is levied. I’m not sure how you can walk back the immunity already given, but the Astros players are being pretty slow to acknowledge wrong-doing and to admitting to what degree, imo.

That said, there are some posters here who enjoy the aspect of players taking matters into their own hands and using an intentional plunking to right a wrong, real or ‘unwritteningly’ perceived.

But I'm not saying pitchers shouldn't throw at batters under any circumstances. (Or, that's not my point.) I'm saying that this isn't a big enough deal....even though so many really seem to want it to be.

 

First, I don't think opposing players care even half as much as most posters here about the 'lack' of punishment...to the team maybe, but not the individuals. Secondly, pitchers understand that throwing at someone is a very big deal...that's why it only happens as an extreme, immediate (usually) and emotional response to a very personal affront (perceived or real). This isn't going to be that, IMO....even though it seems many think it is...or will be. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see. I do agree that MLB should not be ignorant of the possibility.


#234 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Win!!

  • Moderator
  • 11,838 posts

Posted 14 February 2020 - 11:27 PM

If I were Bregman, I'd be terrified.


#235 ewen21

ewen21

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 2,116 posts

Posted 15 February 2020 - 08:47 AM

 

Blasphemous to steal signs, or try to, but a great talent to steal the pitch and fool/cheat the umpire with pitch framing. One maybe gives the batter an advantage. The other cheats the actual outcome of the pitch.

 

OK to steal signs with no tech, but criminal to steal signs with tech. OK to figure out a tell, or how a pitcher tips his pitches, and then share that, but criminal to figure out a series of 10 hand signals with video.

 

Sometimes I just don't understand the outrage, or the distinctive difference, on what is a great talent to quantify, and what is "cheating". I hate pitch framing cheating the most, and it is still a thing, when it can easily be eliminated.

I am going to try to explain it to you, but this will be my only attempt so please read this

 

The difference between using technology and pitch framing is that one is an art that comes from a player's ability to make pitches better.The other teams and the umpires have knowledge of what pitch framing is and how it happens.Umpires can become aware of who is a great "pitch framer" and adjust accordingly.Stats are used to show who the best and worst pitch framers are.It is out there for public consumption.The key here is there very up front knowledge of this practice and the other team and umpires are aware of it.It happens on the field and players doing the framing are getting no help from anyone.

 

With this scam the Astros ran the entire team was complicit in this by keeping it a secret.This was a system that employed cameras which relayed real time video to someone who then relayed messages to a player via a wired a device taped inside his uniform.The player was given real time information (something that could never be accomplished through hand signals) about what pitch was coming.As Curt Schilling explained the other day, this system would have killed him because if everyone knew his two seamer was coming they wouldn't have swung.Now they are geared up for tow pitches.To get this in place there were layers of duplicity to this and the other team's pitcher had no way of defending himself against it because they did this without the other team's knowledge.Had the Astros informed the other teams of this there isn't an organization that wouldn't have blown the whistle on them.This was a highly elaborate scam which operated on many levels and if it were ever discovered during a game players would have been ejected, probably the game protested, and lord knows what else.

 

The fact that you wonder why it's viewed so differently from pitch framing only illustrates the lack of depth and understanding this argument you presented has.It assumes ignorance.It attempts to use generalizations to equate two different things.It shows the details I and others have presented go over your head for some strange reason. Either you understand it or you don't.That is on you, my friend.I cannot break it down in more elementary terms for you.

 

 

  • twinsnorth49 and Nine of twelve like this

#236 USNMCPO

USNMCPO

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • 152 posts

Posted 15 February 2020 - 08:55 AM

 

I think there is a difference between condoning a pitcher intentionally hitting a batter, which I do not, and wondering if it will or expecting it to happen, because of the circumstances, despite not condoning it. Players are pissed, rightfully so, but I hope the retribution isn’t this because of the potential for very serious injury, but I do have a feeling it will happen unless more serious fines and/or punishment is levied. I’m not sure how you can walk back the immunity already given, but the Astros players are being pretty slow to acknowledge wrong-doing and to admitting to what degree, imo.

That said, there are some posters here who enjoy the aspect of players taking matters into their own hands and using an intentional plunking to right a wrong, real or ‘unwritteningly’ perceived.

I certainly do not advocate hitting batters. I am a former hockey player and tend to look at all sports through that lens. Baseball and hockey have similar kinds of unwritten rules so it bears thinking about. When it comes to retribution in hockey, it is usually because the referees and/or league do not hold players accountable. The NHL is horrible at this as a league. MLB has seemingly taken a page out of the NHL playbook and decided that minimal punishment is the easiest way to sweep this under the rug. When that happens, the players are tempted to take the matter into their own hands and that is what I anticipate happening here.

  • SQUIRREL, Vanimal46 and ewen21 like this

#237 SQUIRREL

SQUIRREL

    Rally SQUIRREL!!!!

  • Moderator
  • 25,506 posts

Posted 15 February 2020 - 09:25 AM

I certainly do not advocate hitting batters. I am a former hockey player and tend to look at all sports through that lens. Baseball and hockey have similar kinds of unwritten rules so it bears thinking about. When it comes to retribution in hockey, it is usually because the referees and/or league do not hold players accountable. The NHL is horrible at this as a league. MLB has seemingly taken a page out of the NHL playbook and decided that minimal punishment is the easiest way to sweep this under the rug. When that happens, the players are tempted to take the matter into their own hands and that is what I anticipate happening here.


Exactly. I still am holding out hope that one player will step up and offer to donate the bonuses earned, which will have a domino affect, but I’m not holding my breath. And as we see more opposing players speak out about this, the more likely it will be that these matters will be handled in a ‘retribution style.’ Although, I’m sure the umps will be on high alert, so not sure what will happen.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But a skunkweed will always be a skunkweed and instantly recognizable. 


#238 ewen21

ewen21

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 2,116 posts

Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:28 PM

y

Exactly. I still am holding out hope that one player will step up and offer to donate the bonuses earned, which will have a domino affect, but I’m not holding my breath. And as we see more opposing players speak out about this, the more likely it will be that these matters will be handled in a ‘retribution style.’ Although, I’m sure the umps will be on high alert, so not sure what will happen.

I agree with you, but what about how much we see from people who are now basically complaining about people for taking these players to task?This idea that it's cheating and cheating goes on in baseball all the time, etc...so it's business as usual in baseball.What?This is different.We have not seen a scandal like this in the modern era of baseball.There was talk about the Dodgers and Giants in the early 50s having some elaborate system, but not anything on the order of this has happened during any of our lifetimes (been following baseball since 1972).As it is they won the World Series, are getting paid millions and millions in guaranteed money, aren't giving a dime of that back, aren't being punished and basically have immunity on this matter....

All that and somehow when you read baseball message boards there is no shortage of people who want to rip those for ripping these Astros.What is there to defend here?Their right to set up an elaborate and very dishonest cheating scam the likes we haven't seen?Believe me.I loved it when the Astros wiped out the Yankees and Dodgers.Those are two teams I despise.  If they are not going to face any consequences and keep their job, their check, and not deal with a suspension then nothing should prevent them from being excoriated and sullied by the fanbase. 

 

It's really disappointing to see people go on about how "there's cheating in baseball so let's move forward" and act as though one gets on a high horse by ripping these guys.Imagine if we advanced in the playoffs, played them and lost. I am certain some people would be singing a different tune.  

  • Vanimal46 likes this

#239 ewen21

ewen21

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 2,116 posts

Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:37 PM

 

But I'm not saying pitchers shouldn't throw at batters under any circumstances. (Or, that's not my point.) I'm saying that this isn't a big enough deal....even though so many really seem to want it to be.

 

First, I don't think opposing players care even half as much as most posters here about the 'lack' of punishment...to the team maybe, but not the individuals. Secondly, pitchers understand that throwing at someone is a very big deal...that's why it only happens as an extreme, immediate (usually) and emotional response to a very personal affront (perceived or real). This isn't going to be that, IMO....even though it seems many think it is...or will be. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see. I do agree that MLB should not be ignorant of the possibility.

 

If you are going to have that opinion and the thrust of your argument then you aren't allowed to be uniformed:

https://ftw.usatoday...reaction-altuve

 

Players are angry about this and in some cases far angrier than most of what I have seen here.What bothers me are those who are telling folks to "stop complaining about it"

That is the only reason I have weighed in on this topic.I got tired of fans who insist the players should walk and it should be swept under the rug.


#240 ewen21

ewen21

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 2,116 posts

Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:38 PM

 

If I were Bregman, I'd be terrified.

 

And indeed. he should be.

  • twinsnorth49 likes this