Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Photo

Front Page: "Robot Umpires" Coming to Some Affiliated Parks Next Season

royce lewis umpires rob manfred
  • Please log in to reply
54 replies to this topic

#41 Steve Lein

Steve Lein

    Senior Member - MiLB Report Contributor

  • Twins Daily Staff
  • 1,997 posts

Posted 07 November 2019 - 11:38 AM

 

If the ball enters the zone. The ball can be hit.

The Backdoor slider that never reaches the backdoor yet called a strike is impossible to hit.

 

For me, that's a pitch that shouldn't be called a strike. A backdoor slider caught on the edge didn't cross in the zone. That pitch needs to end up well inside the zone. Same idea as the curveballs in the dirt the system is calling.

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 45, Speed: 45. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but will sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#42 jkcarew

jkcarew

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,550 posts

Posted 07 November 2019 - 12:08 PM

Guaranteed to be unintended consequences. Still, might be the right move...we'll see how the tests play out. But, it's way down the list in priority of things that need to be tweaked, IMO.


#43 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Moderator
  • 22,417 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 07 November 2019 - 02:32 PM

 

For me, that's a pitch that shouldn't be called a strike. A backdoor slider caught on the edge didn't cross in the zone. That pitch needs to end up well inside the zone. Same idea as the curveballs in the dirt the system is calling.

 

Agreed but it happens and automation takes that away. 

 

The players will learn to hit that curveball in the dirt before it hits the dirt once it starts getting called.:)

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#44 Steve Lein

Steve Lein

    Senior Member - MiLB Report Contributor

  • Twins Daily Staff
  • 1,997 posts

Posted 07 November 2019 - 03:08 PM

 

Agreed but it happens and automation takes that away. 

 

The players will learn to hit that curveball in the dirt before it hits the dirt once it starts getting called.:)

 

That's one of my problem's with the current system however, it shouldn't be a strike to begin with.

 

We all seem to not recognize as well, that these systems are recent technologies. Quite frankly, I don't believe they are accurate enough to be employed in the manner people want them to be. Rob Manfred has even said the technology has a larger margin of error than they get with human umps making the calls.

 

 

  • SQUIRREL, USAFChief and DocBauer like this

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 45, Speed: 45. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but will sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#45 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Moderator
  • 22,417 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 07 November 2019 - 03:13 PM

That's one of my problem's with the current system however, it shouldn't be a strike to begin with.

We all seem to not recognize as well, that these systems are recent technologies. Quite frankly, I don't believe they are accurate enough to be employed in the manner people want them to be. Rob Manfred has even said the technology has a larger margin of error than they get with human umps making the calls.


If that’s the case. I don’t advocate immediate implementation.

However, I do advocate priority attention to the improvement of a system for implication as soon as possible.

LOL... I’m sick of pitch framing stats.
  • Steve Lein, h2oface and DocBauer like this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#46 Platoon

Platoon

    Cooperstown

  • Member
  • 5,141 posts
  • LocationTwinsWorld

Posted 07 November 2019 - 06:11 PM

If that’s the case. I don’t advocate immediate implementation.
However, I do advocate priority attention to the improvement of a system for implication as soon as possible.
LOL... I’m sick of pitch framing stats.

I am sick of lots of stats........ Why? Because they are simply new ways to emphasize, and yes account for, things that have been baseball staples for years. And I imagine a lot of fans enjoy fine tuning the numbers. Anyone who has ever played, umpired, or even watched with attentiveness has known for years the value of framing. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that some catchers just aren't good at it. Nor do I need exit velocity, launch angle, and spin rate to know that the harder you hit the ball, in the air the further it will go. And the more revolutions you can impact unto a baseball the quicker and further it will change course. Oh, btw, just to be clear none of the above causes me to change my dislike of the Robo ump possibility.

Edited by Platoon, 07 November 2019 - 06:12 PM.

  • SQUIRREL, Steve Lein and DocBauer like this
TwinsWorld: Did you hear we just updated the Stadium Club?

If I wanted balls and strikes called by a robot, I would get an Xbox!

#47 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 5,883 posts

Posted 07 November 2019 - 06:54 PM

I am sick of bizarre and frankly wrong and ticky tac penalties in football. What really kills me is the refs in the NFL almost seem worse than the ones on college. I understand reffing or umpiring in any sport is a tough gig. And I'm in favor or quick, decisive replay to get things right. But they can't be quick, nor do they even get a lot of replays right!

I understand some calls will always require some interpretation of a rule. I accept judgement is part of the process. But no even standard is the problem, and at some point, you have to let the players actually play and see what happens.

In baseball, while there seems to be a lack of standards from one ump to another, or even during a game for bad umps, at least there isn't a replay and debate every few plays. Pitchers and hitters all benefit from bad calls, or no calls.

Don't misunderstand, I WANT the home plate umpire to call it right, or at least consistent. But IMO opinion, rules and criteria are not enforced. I get different hitters have different parameters physically, so the strike zone itself will change, at least on the vertical plane. In other words, Altuve will have a smaller strike zone than Judge on a vertical plane. Regardless, the criteria is written down in the rule book for the top and bottom of that zone. Further, you have a standard 17" wide plate that marks the horizontal plane. A hard breaking pitch can move a ton, but can the umpires really not see it crossing the plate in or out???

Unlike the NFL, MLB umpires are professional and not part time. I've always felt there was a lack of education and standards and legitimate grading system in place. If you can't perform your job consistently, then you shouldn't be doing that job!

If and when the robot ump can be tweaked to be faster in it's call, and logorhyms can be enhanced for an accepted and true "norm", I could be in favor of the change. From reading comments from batters and pitchers both, it appears they generally agree the computer interpreted zone is not fully accurate. Makes me wonder, again, is it possible a certain percentage of the ball must pass through the zone "window" to be called a strike. I'd like to think technology could allow for that in the future.

Until then, MLB needs to hold human umpires to a harder grading criteria for accuracy as it is spelled out.
  • Steve Lein and Hosken Bombo Disco like this
"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

--Lou Brown


#48 Hosken Bombo Disco

Hosken Bombo Disco

    Minnesota Twins

  • Moderator
  • 11,859 posts

Posted 07 November 2019 - 07:39 PM

I wonder if there is some confusion about what the strike zone is. The rulebook is pretty clear: it’s “that area over home plate...” and then, what a strike is, which is when “any part of the ball passes through any part of the strike zone.”

The slow breaking pitches the clip the front bottom of the strike zone, are strikes. The “strikes” that wind up in the dirt seem implausible, but I would like to see that graphically presented. But I think it’s possible the sharpest breaking pitches, received by catchers stationed very deep, might actually be strikes, even when they skip in the dirt.

If people wanted to change the rule book definition of a strike, and raise the low point to higher than “the hollow beneath the kneecap,” then please say so. I would probably be on board with that, actually. The more important thing to me is that umpires call strikes strikes. We are seeing too many counts go to four strikes, and by extension, too many innings extended to four outs, and that is most certainly not in the rulebook or in the spirit of the game.

And yeah what was said above, grade the umpires, offer the good umps incentives to work home plate more, and shut out the bad umpires from ever getting home plate. That would go towards solving the problem too.

/rant
  • SQUIRREL and Steve Lein like this
He measured the achievements of others by what they had accomplished, asking of them that they measure him by what he envisaged or planned.
- J. L. Borges

#49 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Moderator
  • 22,417 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 08 November 2019 - 07:08 AM

 

I am sick of lots of stats........ Why? Because they are simply new ways to emphasize, and yes account for, things that have been baseball staples for years. And I imagine a lot of fans enjoy fine tuning the numbers. Anyone who has ever played, umpired, or even watched with attentiveness has known for years the value of framing. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that some catchers just aren't good at it. Nor do I need exit velocity, launch angle, and spin rate to know that the harder you hit the ball, in the air the further it will go. And the more revolutions you can impact unto a baseball the quicker and further it will change course. Oh, btw, just to be clear none of the above causes me to change my dislike of the Robo ump possibility.

 

Catchers are compensated for their ability to fool umpires.

 

That sentence alone can't be beaten in any argument for the human element.:)

 

 

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#50 biggentleben

biggentleben

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 4,444 posts

Posted 08 November 2019 - 09:37 AM

I asked Kiley in his chat yesterday at FanGraphs how long he saw the robot umps being implemented in minor league ball before making their MLB debut, and his response was a few years.

Purveyor of videobaseballscout.com to cover all kinds of baseball!!

 


#51 Platoon

Platoon

    Cooperstown

  • Member
  • 5,141 posts
  • LocationTwinsWorld

Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:49 PM

Catchers are compensated for their ability to fool umpires.
 
That sentence alone can't be beaten in any argument for the human element.:)

Well if they are I feel Mitch Garver will be one of the lower paid catchers in baseball year after year. I wish that we would put as much expectation on the players as we do on the officials. Don't get me wrong, I have barked at many an umpire in my life, way many. But that does not change the fact that we expect perfection from them, and at the same time seem quite enthralled with an entire infield that can do only one half of their proscribed duties, the offensive half, with any apparent proficiency. We are enthralled with a catcher who can hit, but couldn't block a four year old from getting into the candy drawer. A cleanup hitter who swings at pitches in a different zip code. But have an umpire miss some close pitches, even say 10 out of 250, and we want to mechanize it? For the players we cheer lustily for their successes and excuse their faults. For the officials we ignore their abilities, and demean their mistakes.
  • SQUIRREL likes this
TwinsWorld: Did you hear we just updated the Stadium Club?

If I wanted balls and strikes called by a robot, I would get an Xbox!

#52 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 17,141 posts

Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:57 PM

FWIW, I've read reports that the delay in calls was much more like 2 seconds than 4 seconds. Which is much, much better -- although could still stand to be improved before it comes to MLB.

  • h2oface and biggentleben like this

#53 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Moderator
  • 22,417 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 08 November 2019 - 02:17 PM

 

Well if they are I feel Mitch Garver will be one of the lower paid catchers in baseball year after year. I wish that we would put as much expectation on the players as we do on the officials. Don't get me wrong, I have barked at many an umpire in my life, way many. But that does not change the fact that we expect perfection from them, and at the same time seem quite enthralled with an entire infield that can do only one half of their proscribed duties, the offensive half, with any apparent proficiency. We are enthralled with a catcher who can hit, but couldn't block a four year old from getting into the candy drawer. A cleanup hitter who swings at pitches in a different zip code. But have an umpire miss some close pitches, even say 10 out of 250, and we want to mechanize it? For the players we cheer lustily for their successes and excuse their faults. For the officials we ignore their abilities, and demean their mistakes.

 

I have nothing but respect for the umpires... I'm not one of those people who call out umpires by name and judge them individually. As a matter of fact, it is my opinion, that MLB umpires are absolutely incredible at their jobs. The job is impossible to perform perfectly so you won't hear me criticizing them when they don't. 

 

 

I want the umpire to have the tools necessary to perfect their performance. Each missed call is random and potentially critical to the result of the game. The possibility of missed strike or ball call impacting DIRECTLY the result of Game 7 in a World Series is absolutely real... It is just a matter of timing. 

 

I've used this example frequently because it stung me personally: 2017... Wild Card Game between the Twins and Yankees. The Twins jumped on Severino for 3 runs in the 1st inning. Santana was no doubt, shaky in the bottom of the first. He walked Gardner followed by a Judge single and the Yankees had 1 and 3rd with nobody out. However... he got Sanchez to pop out with Gardner remaining at 3B and then it happened: He had two strikes on Gregorious. He threw a pitch in the strike zone that Gregorious looked at... It should have been strike three with two outs... Instead it was called a ball and on the very next pitch Didi parked it and the game is now tied 3-3. 

 

I don't blame the umpire and I recognize the role that Santana's performance played in the equation. I also understand it was the first inning with 8 more innings of random events yet to take place. However, that missed call was a significant game changing moment, because everything looks different if the Twins enter the 2nd Inning with 3-0 lead instead of a 3-3 tie. 

 

Now... take that same real-life scenario that happened to us and place it in the 9th inning of Game 7 of the World Series. What if the ump missed a strike call with two strikes and two outs on Bregman and he blasts a game winning home run off Hudson on the next pitch. You can't say this won't happen, you can't quote me odds that it will happen... it can absolutely happen. It's just a matter of unfortunate timing. The Nationals losing in that fashion would be a nightmare unless you lived in Houston. Joe Torre would have to stand there in front of throngs of media to defend a guy that was simply tasked with a doing a job, that was impossible to begin with. We'd have a system in place the following season, if it's ready or not. A full year of baseball down to the tubes because it was decided by a human element call. 

 

Hell, the U.S. congress would probably pass legislation making strike zone automation law while taking away the Anti-Trust Exemption if it happened to the Nationals.:)

 

My strong feelings toward this subject have nothing to do with lack of respect toward the umpires, I think they are incredible. I'm saying we have the technology to eliminate the human mistakes, the human mistakes influence the final results of games. So, improve the system, get it done and utilize it as soon as possible. 

 

We don't need any more proof that the final results are indeed influenced by these random missed calls when pitch framers like Jason Castro are paid 3 years and 24 million dollars. 

 

Catchers are compensated for their ability to fool umpires. This sentence tells you all you need to know. Umpires can be fooled. Teams employ those who are best at fooling them so they've seen the statistical evidence and a value for the ability has been assessed and paid.:)

  • Heezy1323 and Nine of twelve like this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#54 Nine of twelve

Nine of twelve

    Minnesota Twins

  • Member
  • 2,552 posts
  • LocationEarth, for the time being

Posted 17 November 2019 - 12:00 PM

 

MLB commissioner Rob Manfred... went on to say, "I only would go to an automated strike zone when we were sure that it was absolutely the best it can be."
 

This is either really poor logic on Manfred's part or an excuse to never implement automated strike calling.

Technology improves. Continuously. The automated systems available 5 years from now will be better than the systems available now. The systems available 10 years from now will be better than the systems available 5 years from now. Ad infinitum. It's just like phones and computers. If you wait for it to be "absolutely the best it can be" then you will never do it.

To contrast, the ability of humans to call strikes will never improve. Moreover, that ability will always vary from one human to another and from one situation to another, leading to inconsistencies and injustices.

If I were commissioner I would go to an automated system when it surpasses the ability of the average MLB umpire. Without doing any research of the data I would expect that that moment in time has already occurred. That means this change is overdue.

  • ashbury likes this

#55 cardsfan

cardsfan

    Cedar Rapids Kernels

  • Member
  • 231 posts

Posted 22 November 2019 - 06:47 AM

Do these automated umpires take into account crouching? I would stay crouched to shrink my strike zone unless I saw a great pitch to hit. Whereas a human umpire determines strike zone when I am at the point of swinging and applies it to when I stay crouched.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: royce lewis, umpires, rob manfred