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Front Page: Reason to Believe Brusdar Graterol Could Start 2020 in Twins Rotation

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#21 Twodogs

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 07:43 PM

I think you give him a legit shot at a rotation spot in spring training. I dont think holding him back will help him that much, these guys need to come up and see what it's like at the MLB level in order to be prepared. So if he earns it, let him start the beginning of the year in Pineda's spot if the twins re-sign him. Once he struggles then send him down. Give him a taste, if he earns it, I mean if he gets lit up in SP T. Then you have your answer. If he mows people down give him that shot. They need to be able to at some point trust the guys in their system.

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#22 Crackedfungo

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 08:08 PM

 

Soroko has and used three effective pitches. His change up was effective entering the season. The change up is the striking difference between the two.

From May 21- look at the layover of his three pitches

https://mobile.twitt...797255060070400

From April 29

https://www.pitcherl...ches-from-4-29/

We didn’t see any evidence of a major league ready third pitch or change up from Graterol. Until he shows that third pitch I don’t think we can compare him to Soroka even if his age and minor league stats are comparable.

Without a major league ready third pitch the options would be to send him to AAA or give up on making him a starter and put him in the bullpen to start the season.

That's NOT accurate.He has a plus 4 seam fastball (as high as 103), a plus two seam sinker (as high as 101), and a wipe-out slider.They are working on his change-up.This IS 3 pitches, and they are working on the 4th.Have you ever seen a 100+mph sinker?There might have been 1-2 prior, but it is clearly a 3rd pitch, as the bottom literally drops out. 

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#23 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 08:17 PM

Graterol's problem to date is durability. I don't see him pitching a full season. He's going to get shut down at some point in 2020... He can either start or finish in the pen to make it work, but that's probably the big issue there. I'm not sure I'd pencil him into a spot for 2020 unless they've resigned Pineda. 

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#24 Mike Sixel

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:30 PM

Agree it will be tough to succeed as a starter without a good third pitch, Mike. But he could be very successful as a reliever with the two plus, plus pitches he has.


Agreed, but that's not what this thread is about. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he's ever a really, really, good starter. And very disappointed if he's not a good reliever at least

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#25 Mike Sixel

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:32 PM

I think you give him a legit shot at a rotation spot in spring training. I dont think holding him back will help him that much, these guys need to come up and see what it's like at the MLB level in order to be prepared. So if he earns it, let him start the beginning of the year in Pineda's spot if the twins re-sign him. Once he struggles then send him down. Give him a taste, if he earns it, I mean if he gets lit up in SP T. Then you have your answer. If he mows people down give him that shot. They need to be able to at some point trust the guys in their system.


So, go into the season coming off 100 wins with two massive question marks to start the year? I hope not.

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#26 Jham

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 10:41 PM

That's NOT accurate. He has a plus 4 seam fastball (as high as 103), a plus two seam sinker (as high as 101), and a wipe-out slider. They are working on his change-up. This IS 3 pitches, and they are working on the 4th. Have you ever seen a 100+mph sinker? There might have been 1-2 prior, but it is clearly a 3rd pitch, as the bottom literally drops out.


I dunno, in most of the appearances I saw, it was hard to argue he had more than 1 mlb ready pitch, and hitters can catch up to heat pretty well at that level. Control was an issue. He mostly sat high 90s not 103. Didn't generate lots of swinging strikes. His "wipe out" slider ducked out of the zone every time. I recall 1 outing where it was genuinely effective. He's got a chance, but he needs to get significantly better at pitching. His MiLB numbers are really good. But not MLB ace good.
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#27 TwinkieTownKiller

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 09:18 AM

Given Graterol's injury history and workload history, I just don't see it. Soroka threw 153.2 innings the season before he made his MLB debut. Graterol only threw around 100 last season and saw a big step down in workload this year. If they start him in the rotation for 2020, they're putting themselves in a tough spot later in the season when his innings start to pile up. Not to mention I'd guess they give the first chances to Smeltzer, Thorpe, and Dobnak just considering service time implications. He pitched well enough to be put on the playoff roster, but the last thing they want to do is depend on him for a rotation spot in 2020 on opening day.

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#28 nicksaviking

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 11:07 AM

 

I've been saying that for years, but he's not going to succeed without a third pitch.

 

I'd also need him to show an off speed pitch if he's starting.

 

It doesn't sound like he doesn't have a change up though, just that it wasn't used during his callup to the pen. I wonder if it's truly terrible, or if the team scrapped it upon his callup simply because they were in a a pennant chase and two good pitches for a reliever tends to be a better move than two good pitches and one below average pitch, at least as far as a reliever is concerned.


#29 nicksaviking

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 11:13 AM

 

So, go into the season coming off 100 wins with two massive question marks to start the year? I hope not.

 

I think unless this team can get Cole or Strasburg, they're going to have question marks in the rotation regardless. We've all seen how unpredictable, volatile and flukey mid-level free agent starting pitchers can be.

 

I'll take Bumgarner and Wheeler, but I'd never put too much certainty in the idea that they'd stabilize a rotation and perform to expectations. My fingers would remain very much crossed with them as well.

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#30 Mike Sixel

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 11:31 AM

I think unless this team can get Cole or Strasburg, they're going to have question marks in the rotation regardless. We've all seen how unpredictable, volatile and flukey mid-level free agent starting pitchers can be.

I'll take Bumgarner and Wheeler, but I'd never put too much certainty in the idea that they'd stabilize a rotation and perform to expectations. My fingers would remain very much crossed with them as well.


More likely than Dobnak and Gaterol both being starters, leaving nothing ready in AAA..... They can't start the season that way, not if they are serious about contending.
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It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#31 Musk21

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 11:58 AM

Resign Pineda, offer Odorizzi the QO and hopefully he accepts or signs an extension, and sign one of Bumgarner/Wheeler/Keuchel/Ryu.

 

Out of ST, two of Graterol/Smeltzer/Dobnak/Thorpe round out the rotation, with Pineda replacing whichever one is struggling when he is in game-shape.

 

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#32 nicksaviking

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 12:33 PM

 

More likely than Dobnak and Gaterol both being starters, leaving nothing ready in AAA..... They can't start the season that way, not if they are serious about contending.

 

As much as I enjoyed watching him, I don't think Dobnak is much of a long term answer. 

 

But a high end pitching prospect vs. a 30-year-old mid level free agent starter? The odds of the veteran being good is probably higher, but I don't think it's significantly higher. 


#33 Mike Sixel

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 12:39 PM

 

As much as I enjoyed watching him, I don't think Dobnak is much of a long term answer. 

 

But a high end pitching prospect vs. a 30-year-old mid level free agent starter? The odds of the veteran being good is probably higher, but I don't think it's significantly higher. 

 

I agree on the first line.....which is my point. No way a serious contender can start the year with Dobnak and Gaterol in the rotation. With what? Thorpe and ? in AAA behind them?

 

They need to bring in three veterans.

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It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#34 bighat

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 12:41 PM

Interesting to see the Braves letting guys like Soroka and Acuna play (and reaping results).

The Twins have a bad rep about letting young players stew too long in the minors, but let's not forget that Luis Arraez will still be just 22 years old on Opening Day this year.

 

The weird thing about the Twins is that they'll gladly call up guys like Arraez - players who they didn't anticipate would be that good. But when it comes to the juicy prospects, they are super hesitant. We all know it's mostly about service time, but I think they're also way too over-cautious with their high draft picks.

 

Let 'em play! Start Brusdar and call up Royce, give Kiriloff a look. Rooker should have already had his first cup of coffee. I know the Twins don't operate like this but I'd love to see them change their style.

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#35 jorgenswest

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 06:07 PM

I think the rep is no longer true.

The old regime started bringing up players quicker but the results were not very good for many. It was still a failure but it became a failure of not recognizing that players weren’t ready or a failure of not developing them.

Arcia, Hicks, Sano and Buxton were not near ready with pitch recognition and approach. Hicks couldn’t recognize when to attack a pitch and the others couldn’t lay off pitches.

I think it is much more critical that the players arrive prepared than arrive quick.

If Graterol needs more time to work on an adequate change up so his fastball will be more effective he should start in AAA. It is on the Twins to have the right staff in place to develop him.
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#36 Twodogs

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 08:04 AM

So, go into the season coming off 100 wins with two massive question marks to start the year? I hope not.


If you re-read what I said, I believe that I said give him a legit shot in spring training, not just go into the season with him, only if ye earns it in spring training. Give him a shot I think is different than give the spot to him?

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#37 Mike Sixel

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 11:01 AM

If you re-read what I said, I believe that I said give him a legit shot in spring training, not just go into the season with him, only if ye earns it in spring training. Give him a shot I think is different than give the spot to him?


If you don't sign, or otherwise acquire, a veteran you expect to start, then two rookies will be there. If you do sign a veteran to start, he'll get the start unless he gets hurt. They won't have an open competition for the fourth spot if they bring in three veteran starters.
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It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#38 Twodogs

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 07:02 PM

If you don't sign, or otherwise acquire, a veteran you expect to start, then two rookies will be there. If you do sign a veteran to start, he'll get the start unless he gets hurt. They won't have an open competition for the fourth spot if they bring in three veteran starters.


If you go out and somehow sign a #1, which the Twins won't, but I can hope. But if they sign a #1, and Berrios is the #2, and Odorizzi accepts the QO, now you either get a Hamels or Pineda, or a Gibson type for the #4 and then Grateral can compete for the #5. I like Grateral more than Dobnak, I really don't think Dobnak is for real and Grateral throws 100. I kinda like that in the rotation. It would be possible for him to be the #4 for awhile if Pineda ends up coming back. But I really think he could be the 5. You'd rather have a veteran like Perez as the #5 more than giving Grateral a shot at it?

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#39 Mike Sixel

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 07:38 PM

If you go out and somehow sign a #1, which the Twins won't, but I can hope. But if they sign a #1, and Berrios is the #2, and Odorizzi accepts the QO, now you either get a Hamels or Pineda, or a Gibson type for the #4 and then Grateral can compete for the #5. I like Grateral more than Dobnak, I really don't think Dobnak is for real and Grateral throws 100. I kinda like that in the rotation. It would be possible for him to be the #4 for awhile if Pineda ends up coming back. But I really think he could be the 5. You'd rather have a veteran like Perez as the #5 more than giving Grateral a shot at it?


That wasn't the discussion.... It was Gaterol and Dobnak we were discussing, which better not happen. I'm indifferent which one of those two gets first shot at the number five spot.... Because there will be movement. Frankly, I think Gaterol is a RP long term....

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#40 Twodogs

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 08:08 PM

That wasn't the discussion.... It was Gaterol and Dobnak we were discussing, which better not happen. I'm indifferent which one of those two gets first shot at the number five spot.... Because there will be movement. Frankly, I think Gaterol is a RP long term....


Maybe he is an RP long term, but I feel he has to get a shot at starting first. A guy with his velo if he can handle starting duties it will in the long run potentially give the twins an ace. So that is what I'm saying, give him a legit shot in ST, because Dobnak will most likely never be an ace whereas Grateral has the potential, and if he doesn't hack it, then throw him in the BP.

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