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How do the Giants do it?

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#1 nokomismod

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:24 AM

Two World Series appearance in three years. When I look at their roster, it does not look that impressive. They seem to be the ultimate clutch hitting, solid defense, and good pitching team. Their outfield plays really good defense, but does not bring power to the plate. I think it's a pretty great story.

#2 johnnydakota

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:48 AM

looking at the giants , the As and baltimore and you ask yourself , why not the twins?
the reason why not the twins,no pitching and no defense....these are all direct results of the 3 stooges...
other then pitching and defense the biggest disapointment last year was getting a runner on 2nd or 3rd with no outs and failing to score 1 run
the notorius small ball is lacking , what was once the pride of minnesota is now there demise...under tom kelly(who i didnt like) the twins way was solid d , and well rounded players not 1 dimentional players,now under gardy the twins way is to lose 95+ games a year...sad but true

#3 Seth Stohs

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:48 AM

Playoff Baseball = Crap Shoot...

#4 Winston Smith

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:37 AM

Playoff Baseball = Crap Shoot...


Imo, it's not a crap shoot at all. The teams that win nearly always have the best pitching. Pitching for the most part doesn't slump. Like we saw with the Yankees even very good hitting teams can slump in a short series. Unless you have very good pitching getting to the world series takes a lot of luck. With 3 series instead of two now I think luck will have a much harder time holding up.

In 87 the Twins were lucky. They got the Tigers after they had a draining season ending run to make it. Then they got the Cards with several injuries to key guys. 91 they were a very good team and had very good starting pitching in Morris, Erickson and Tapani.

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#5 biggentleben

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:12 AM

Playoff Baseball = Crap Shoot...


Imo, it's not a crap shoot at all. The teams that win nearly always have the best pitching. Pitching for the most part doesn't slump. Like we saw with the Yankees even very good hitting teams can slump in a short series. Unless you have very good pitching getting to the world series takes a lot of luck. With 3 series instead of two now I think luck will have a much harder time holding up.

In 87 the Twins were lucky. They got the Tigers after they had a draining season ending run to make it. Then they got the Cards with several injuries to key guys. 91 they were a very good team and had very good starting pitching in Morris, Erickson and Tapani.


If pitching were your answer, the Braves would have a half dozen World Championships or more with Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Avery/Neagle/Ashby/Millwood. In the wild card system, it truly is a crap shoot. A team can get hot for a short period of time. A bullpen can dominate a series (and the Giants have one of the best in the game right now). One hitter can swing a whole series. In general, it's rare to see 8 runs in a postseason game even in the height of offensive era in the early 2000s because teams with great pitching were the ones that could endure the regular season, but pitching streaks just like hitting. If you were going on pure talent in the rotation and bullpen, the Braves should have gone farther this year and the Nationals would be in the World Series. A one-game play in game and a five-game series make anything possible with one or two poor starts in a rotation turn.
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#6 nicksaviking

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:13 AM

San Francisco pitchers struck out 1,237 batters this year. The Minnesota pitchers struck out 943. The next lowest total was Cleveland who still had 143 more K's than the Twins. So even when the Twins record an out, the other team's are much more likely to score on sacrifice hits and move runners over and that's beside the fact that even poorly hit balls in play can find a hole, or give the fielders a chance to make an error. With about 300 fewer batters putting the ball in play against the Giants, they are allowing a lot fewer baserunners.

The Twins team 5.9 K/9 rate is embarassing, and the front office better recognize this. Any thought of signing a Joe Saunders or Brandon McCarthy for the front of the rotation better be squashed ASAP.

#7 ThePuck

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:17 AM

we must be horrible at crap shoots, cause we haven't won a playoff game in our last 12 playoff games. 0-12 crap shoot? Who is The Cooler?

#8 glanzer

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

Was thinking the same thing about that Giants roster. It's not like they just got hot in the playoffs, they won all year long with a roster full of mediocre hitters. They hit less than 30 HR at home this season. Is Buster Posey that good?

#9 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:58 AM

They have a great pitching squad. That's what does it in the playoffs. Cain, Vogelsong, and Bumgartner are all elite pitchers.

#10 B Richard

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:29 AM

Pitching "slumps" far, far less than hitting. Good pitching never goes out of style. Play-in games aside, the playoffs are far from a crap shoot.

#11 biggentleben

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

It is a crap shoot. If you really believe the best team is the one that wins the World Series, you're simply missing baseball. For that to be true, the Angels would be in the playoffs this year while the Tigers were watching. Instead, the Tigers are in the World Series while the Angels weren't even in the playoffs. The correlation prior to divisional play to the best record in the league to the World Series winner was high, and now it's virtually nil. The best team by record virtually never wins the World Series anymore. Now you can say that unbalanced schedule influences record or other such things, but we've seen more wild card teams win the World Series since 1995 than teams with the MLB's best record. If that isn't a crap shoot, I'm not sure what you consider a crap shoot to be.
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#12 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:42 PM

If the theoretical "Best Team" won the Big Kahuna every year - I think most would lose interest and tune out by June 1st (even the "Best Team's" fans). I like the fact that a powerhouse team can smash through the summer months, play okay in September, and get beat by a lesser talented team that has found their mojo in the dusk of the baseball season. This is what baseball has always been for the most part.

San Fran has a very, very good team, and if you told me 2 months ago they would be in the WS, I would not have been surprised. Where they lack in hitting, they make up in the pitching department and it's not as if they don't have any impact offensive players. I just hope they beat the living excrement out of the Tigers!

Viva San Francisco!!!!

#13 TheLeviathan

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 04:07 PM

Yeah, it's a crapshoot. Last I checked the Nats and the Reds were the best teams this season in team ERA. The Braves were ahead of the Giants too. So where does all this crap about best pitching staff come from?

The truth is, all it takes is a fluke or two to dramatically shift a series and a playoff structure. As Twins fans, we should all be very familiar with that. In the regular season those flukes balance out, in a 10 days worth of games they make the results much more of a coin flip.

#14 wavedog

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 04:09 PM

I don't want to classify it quite as a crapshoot. The pressure increases in the playoffs, each play becomes more important - the game does change in the playoffs versus what we see in the regular season. For example going from 5-man starting rotations to 4-man or 3-man, quicker hooks for pitchers, different roles for some players, more pinch-hitting, players trying to be heroes and swinging for the fences, etc..Some teams/managers handle that better than others. The Twins of the past decade have not handled it well.

#15 mike wants wins

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 04:43 PM

The playoffs are, but getting to them is not. They got to the playoffs 2 of the last three years due to pitching.

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#16 mnfireman

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 04:44 PM

Pitching may not slump, but it does have bad games (see Verlander, Jason; Sabathia, CC; Carpenter, Chris X2; Zimmerman, Jordan).

#17 biggentleben

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:17 PM

If the theoretical "Best Team" won the Big Kahuna every year - I think most would lose interest and tune out by June 1st (even the "Best Team's" fans). I like the fact that a powerhouse team can smash through the summer months, play okay in September, and get beat by a lesser talented team that has found their mojo in the dusk of the baseball season. This is what baseball has always been for the most part.

San Fran has a very, very good team, and if you told me 2 months ago they would be in the WS, I would not have been surprised. Where they lack in hitting, they make up in the pitching department and it's not as if they don't have any impact offensive players. I just hope they beat the living excrement out of the Tigers!

Viva San Francisco!!!!


Yes and no. Do I think the best team every year should win the series? No. I do think that calling it "the best team in baseball" is a misnomer in today's playoff set up because of the lack of correlation between regular season record and World Series appearances, let alone wins. I do think San Fran is a very solid team, and their regular season record shows that as well. They arguably had the best trade deadline of any team, in spite of Pence's performance. Their defense is top notch as well.
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#18 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:05 PM

San Fran has a great manager/pitching coach for one . San Fran starting 5 had 161starts in regular season & they get treated like glass & are allowed to pitch deep into games.....thereby not blowing out their bullpen.
Management has sculpted the team according to the park....no power hitters but solid situational hitters.
Their star player also actually plays the position he's supposed to.

#19 old nurse

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:03 PM

Yeah, it's a crapshoot. Last I checked the Nats and the Reds were the best teams this season in team ERA. The Braves were ahead of the Giants too. So where does all this crap about best pitching staff come from?

The truth is, all it takes is a fluke or two to dramatically shift a series and a playoff structure. As Twins fans, we should all be very familiar with that. In the regular season those flukes balance out, in a 10 days worth of games they make the results much more of a coin flip.


The statistics of your fifth starter, long reliever, and last two guys in the bullpen should be meaningless for the playoffs. Team stats are meaningless. The utility guy's stats should be meaningless. You probably did not get there with a third sting catcher.

#20 TheLeviathan

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:05 PM

The statistics of your fifth starter, long reliever, and last two guys in the bullpen should be meaningless for the playoffs. Team stats are meaningless. The utility guy's stats should be meaningless. You probably did not get there with a third sting catcher.


Did you even look at anything before you posted this? Talk about meaningless:

Cueto has a chance to be the NL Cy Young. (Which he did, BTW, in a much worse home park for pitching than anyone on SF) Latos and Bailey were pretty comparable with Vogelsong and Bumgartner too.

Zimmerman and Gio are both outstanding pitchers.

The Cincy bullpen was ridiculous in the regular season.

All that and the fact that SF's fifth starter most of the season (Barry Zito) has pitched well in two key games. I could keep going with this post but I've put more time, effort, and thought into than you earned with that retort. Yeesh.

#21 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:16 PM

I think saying the playoffs are a crap shoot is oversimplifying it, but I agree with the basic idea that success in the playoffs is dependent on a number of factors beyond your control. thing

Detroit is extremely fortunate to be where they are. First of all, it's not often you can get to the playoffs with the 7th-best record in your league. And when you do, chances are slim that most of the teams better than you will fold, leaving you with a clear path to the World Series.

Yes, the Twins have a long post-season losing streak. But a lot of those games were really close, and had a couple of things gone the Twins way, the results may have been very differently. The margin between victory and defeat is so small once you get to the playoffs in any sport.

Look at Tom Brady. They guy is thought of as one of the best postseason quarterbacks of all time. But when you look closely, he's a Tuck Rule and a couple of missed FG's by Vinatieri away from being the guy who couldn't win the big one.

#22 nicksaviking

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:46 PM

The best team in baseball changes on a weekly basis. Or are we considering the best team to be the one that ended the season with the most wins? Kind of like how surely everyone considers the best pitcher to be the one with the most wins?

If anyone had ever thought the best team in baseball was the one with the most wins, then there would be no need for a post season.

#23 nokomismod

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:43 AM

And they did it again last night with a soft throwing left hander and good outfield defense. Maybe we need more Scott Diamonds?
I still notice how great it is to watch baseball on HD. The slow motion replays of Romo's pitches breaking into the bottom corner of the strike zone, or the replay of Pence's bat shattering while the bat hits the ball 3 times, have been great to see.

#24 biggentleben

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:51 AM

The best team in baseball changes on a weekly basis. Or are we considering the best team to be the one that ended the season with the most wins? Kind of like how surely everyone considers the best pitcher to be the one with the most wins?

If anyone had ever thought the best team in baseball was the one with the most wins, then there would be no need for a post season.


1) Comparing pitcher wins and team wins does not work. At all.

2) No one is saying that it is always true that the best record = best team, but it is pretty alarming the change in correlation from pre-divisional play in the 60s and since. The best team by record before 1961 tended to win the World Series an awful lot. Now, with each added round of playoffs, the correlation is much, much lower. The fact that more wild card teams have appeared in the World Series since 1995 than teams with the best regular season record is also fairly indicative that a WS win is not truly indicative of being the best team in baseball in that particular season. It's winning a postseason tournament. The team that won 106 games but got beat by the team that won 86 and got hot in October had to endure all the ups and downs of the same 162 game season and won 20 games more, yet they're bypassed in the eyes of many who have a distorted view of the value of the World Series by that team who had 20 less wins. I'm not sure how to truly measure the "best team" in the game, but the assumption that it's the World Series winner every year is just not true.
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#25 jtrinaldi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:23 PM

The Giants are one of the smartest organizations in all of baseball. They get it, to win you have to develop top pitching prospects. They drafted pitching in the first round for consecutive years Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Mad Bum, (3 out of 4 years) and when they drafted a hitter, they drafted Buster Posey as well. They traded Wheeler for Beltran, but that would be a sick rotation if Wheeler was in it. The Giants decided to sign Barry Zito because he would put them over the top, he was been terrible up until now, but now he is starting to earn some of the money the giants paid him. Minor League Free agents and waiver wire trades How many of the guys on the team have you herd of, or were on the Giants at the beginning of the year? They pulled a big move to get hunter pence (who is not just a rental, he will contribute in their future) and gave up a top catching spect, compared to giving up a future ace. By the time the Twins pick the 2 top pitchers will be off the board (manaea,Appel) so they will be stuck choosing between stanek or Meadows, and they ultimately will have to go pitcher just because of th slack of the depth they have in the system.
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#26 old nurse

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:41 PM

The bad part about your analysis is Cain was in the late first round (think the Twins would trade the player they drafted ahead of Cain that year straight up now?) nor was he taken in consecutive years with the other 3. Many other pitchers were picked before Linecum and Bumgarner, it does come down to scouting. As good as the scouting has been for Tampa, do you think they would take Beckham over Posey again?

#27 Fire Dan Gladden

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:56 PM

Did anybody listen to Mike and Mike on ESPN radio this morning? Everybody is forgetting one simple thing: luck. Like it or not, once you get into a short series, luck can have an awful lot to do with whether you make it through or not. Greenberg called it "the team of destiny" and "the baseball gods", but a feak play at the right/wrong time can change everything

#28 flpmagikat

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:10 PM

The statistics of your fifth starter, long reliever, and last two guys in the bullpen should be meaningless for the playoffs. Team stats are meaningless. The utility guy's stats should be meaningless. You probably did not get there with a third sting catcher.


Did you even look at anything before you posted this? Talk about meaningless:

Cueto has a chance to be the NL Cy Young. (Which he did, BTW, in a much worse home park for pitching than anyone on SF) Latos and Bailey were pretty comparable with Vogelsong and Bumgartner too.

Zimmerman and Gio are both outstanding pitchers.

The Cincy bullpen was ridiculous in the regular season.

All that and the fact that SF's fifth starter most of the season (Barry Zito) has pitched well in two key games. I could keep going with this post but I've put more time, effort, and thought into than you earned with that retort. Yeesh.


How many innings did Cueto and Strasburg through this postseason? Not that I disagree with you neccesarily, I think luck is obviously a huge factor. SF is lucky that their rotation remained healthy, and I as all those teams have pretty great frontline SP, which is the most important factor. I guess I don't count Lincecum this year as he hasn't been in the rotation all year.

#29 biggentleben

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:13 PM

The Giants are one of the smartest organizations in all of baseball. They get it, to win you have to develop top pitching prospects. They drafted pitching in the first round for consecutive years Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Mad Bum, (3 out of 4 years) and when they drafted a hitter, they drafted Buster Posey as well. They traded Wheeler for Beltran, but that would be a sick rotation if Wheeler was in it. The Giants decided to sign Barry Zito because he would put them over the top, he was been terrible up until now, but now he is starting to earn some of the money the giants paid him. Minor League Free agents and waiver wire trades How many of the guys on the team have you herd of, or were on the Giants at the beginning of the year? They pulled a big move to get hunter pence (who is not just a rental, he will contribute in their future) and gave up a top catching spect, compared to giving up a future ace. By the time the Twins pick the 2 top pitchers will be off the board (manaea,Appel) so they will be stuck choosing between stanek or Meadows, and they ultimately will have to go pitcher just because of th slack of the depth they have in the system.


Um, it's not like they're doing this with unknowns. They have employed guys for their strengths, and their roster is full of guys who have been miscast by previous teams, but they are certainly not unknown commodities.
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#30 biggentleben

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:17 PM

[quote name='flpmagikat'][quote name='TheLeviathan'][quote name='old nurse']The statistics of your fifth starter, long reliever, and last two guys in the bullpen should be meaningless for the playoffs. Team stats are meaningless. The utility guy's stats should be meaningless. You probably did not get there with a third sting catcher.[/QUOTE]

Did you even look at anything before you posted this? Talk about meaningless:

Cueto has a chance to be the NL Cy Young. (Which he did, BTW, in a much worse home park for pitching than anyone on SF) Latos and Bailey were pretty comparable with Vogelsong and Bumgartner too.

Zimmerman and Gio are both outstanding pitchers.

The Cincy bullpen was ridiculous in the regular season.

All that and the fact that SF's fifth starter most of the season (Barry Zito) has pitched well in two key games. I could keep going with this post but I've put more time, effort, and thought into than you earned with that retort. Yeesh.[/QUOTE]

How many innings did Cueto and Strasburg through this postseason? Not that I disagree with you neccesarily, I think luck is obviously a huge factor. SF is lucky that their rotation remained healthy, and I as all those teams have pretty great frontline SP, which is the most important factor. I guess I don't count Lincecum this year as he hasn't been in the rotation all year.[/QUOTE]

He never mentioned Strasburg. He mentioned Gio and Zimmerman from the Nats, both guys who made 32 starts. Neither completed 200 innings, but both were over 190. Cueto led the league in starts this year and threw nearly 220 innings, but he was injured in the postseason. Lincecum also never left the rotation, tying Cueto for the lead league in games started, though he only tossed 186 innings in the same amount of starts. Just some facts for your argument, some you stated correctly, some not.
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