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#41 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 04:05 PM

yeah, comparring him to Bryant really isn't fair.. there's very little similarities here other than that both were drafted high. 

 

Buxton can file that grievance, but I'd be very surprised if he won... He certainly didn't deserve a call up... his play dictated the need to evaluate other outfielders. 

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#42 Don Walcott

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 05:08 PM

 

No, wrong.

 

This delusion that the Twins "held him back" really is something a lot of us feel is the fundamental flaw in your argument.He was not held back.The Twins have done everything they can to instill confidence in this player.When he was hitting around .100 at the beginning of the season a few years ago Molitor and some of the players said he can hit .100 and still be a valuable player.Really??Really?

James Rowson said, "over my dead body" when it was opined that maybe he should be sent down.

 

Why should he get a pass is what I would like to know?Why are we having to placate this guy?I heard so much about what a high character kid he was and yet there he was in a children's hospital at a charity event ranting about not being called up.

 

Sorry dude.Look in the mirror.The Twins didn't run into walls, get migraines, hurt their hand and hit .156.The Twins didn't hit like garbage in Rochester until he finally woke up about 10 days before the deadline.

 

And why are we comparing him to Bryant or Tatis?Bryant is way better and Tatis come up as a 20 year old and played like a champ.Buxton still looks completely lost in the batters box half the time.Worst of all, he can't stay on the field and that doesn't help his development.

I think you missed the point of even the portion of my post that you quoted. People have made the argument here and elsewhere that he was not called up in September 2018 due to fear of him re-injuring himself. If you don't believe that to be the case, I've made my point about the comparison with Tatis and the slippery slope of that argument. And if you want further comparison with Tatis, at this point in his career, Tatis has not won a gold or platinum glove nor received any votes for MVP. Yet I doubt anyone would seriously argue that he should be in the minors in 2020 if he's healthy.

 

If your main point is that Buxton, by his performance, did not merit being called up in September 2018, that's an entirely different argument that I addressed in other portions of my post. I disagree with the argument that he didn't merit being the starting center fielder on the Twins in September 2018, much less a player on that expanded roster at all. From what I've seen of him over the past several years, when he's healthy, as he was in September 2018, he most definitely is the best option we have to start in center field. And based on statements by the organization in the off season and the fact that he was our opening day starting center fielder in 2019, I'd guess that the Twins organization agrees with me.

 

If your other argument is that he didn't merit a position on the Twins in September 2018, is based on his "character," as evidenced by his honest response to a question posed to him last off season after the Twins didn't call him up in September, suffice to say I disagree. I like his character.

 

As far as the comparison with Bryant, that's the whole point of this thread. I also addressed that comparison in my previous post.

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#43 ewen21

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 08:18 PM

Sorry Don.I said that because you didn't seem to understand what I and others were saying.None of us believe he was "held back" by the Twins, but rather he performed poorly, was dealing with a variety of injuries and didn't really hit most of the time he was in Rochester until the very end..This wasn't the no-brainer you guys keep making it out to be.He hasn't developed into a reliable player and that's the issue he presents to us now.What we can honestly say is he goes through long phases where he suddenly can't hit and he gets injured.If you want to say he is fast and his defense is awesome that is as true as what I just said.Can't we just say 2018 was bad and when he didn't (couldn't) made an assessment based off his performance and health.Welcome to the major leagues Byron.They babied him and did everything to make sure he was comfortable and happy.That needed to change.I hope he got the message, but I don't know.

 

I alluded to how clueless he was with finally breaking his silence at a charity event.The fact that he goes stayed bitter about all the way up to before spring training is too pouty for me.When he didn't get called up there was reports that he hadn't returned Torii Hunter's hone calls up to a week or so later.This, for the simple fact that he fails to acknowledge his own inadequacies through it all.Never once did he say he played poorly.Instead he said, "I don't know what they want from me"

But please, make the distinction, all of this stuff happened after the fact and has nothing to with where I stand.Right when they went to the 40-man and he was left off I agreed with the move.I said so myself right here and I caught Hell for it.

 

It really is ridiculous because the answer for Buxton is simple: PROVE you can be an everyday player for us.In the four season he had the starting job in CF he has played 100 or more games only once.That simply is not good enough for a guy that often ends up being a liability with the bat on top of it.To me, his time is almost up with this organization if he can't persevere and stay healthy.I hope he can turn this around.

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#44 KirbyDome89

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 04:34 PM

 

Sorry Don.I said that because you didn't seem to understand what I and others were saying.None of us believe he was "held back" by the Twins, but rather he performed poorly, was dealing with a variety of injuries and didn't really hit most of the time he was in Rochester until the very end..This wasn't the no-brainer you guys keep making it out to be.He hasn't developed into a reliable player and that's the issue he presents to us now.What we can honestly say is he goes through long phases where he suddenly can't hit and he gets injured.If you want to say he is fast and his defense is awesome that is as true as what I just said.Can't we just say 2018 was bad and when he didn't (couldn't) made an assessment based off his performance and health.Welcome to the major leagues Byron.They babied him and did everything to make sure he was comfortable and happy.That needed to change.I hope he got the message, but I don't know.

 

I alluded to how clueless he was with finally breaking his silence at a charity event.The fact that he goes stayed bitter about all the way up to before spring training is too pouty for me.When he didn't get called up there was reports that he hadn't returned Torii Hunter's hone calls up to a week or so later.This, for the simple fact that he fails to acknowledge his own inadequacies through it all.Never once did he say he played poorly.Instead he said, "I don't know what they want from me"

But please, make the distinction, all of this stuff happened after the fact and has nothing to with where I stand.Right when they went to the 40-man and he was left off I agreed with the move.I said so myself right here and I caught Hell for it.

 

It really is ridiculous because the answer for Buxton is simple: PROVE you can be an everyday player for us.In the four season he had the starting job in CF he has played 100 or more games only once.That simply is not good enough for a guy that often ends up being a liability with the bat on top of it.To me, his time is almost up with this organization if he can't persevere and stay healthy.I hope he can turn this around.

I keep seeing the same 3 arguments being beaten to death here:

 

1) He didn't "deserve," a call up - Please, read through that September roster and then tell me there wasn't room for Buxton.

 

2) He needed to gain confidence - I'm not sure how refusing to give PT to somebody instills confidence. Also, lets be honest, September rosters are full of guys that'll never have big league careers, i.e. an extension of the competition he was seeing in the minors. 

 

3) He needed to develop in the minors - His minor league season was over. They literally sent him home while the big league club played another 15+ games. Players don't develop by not being on the field.

 

You can be disappointed in Buxton's development to this point and still acknowledge that the decision to send him home that September was 100% motivated by service time. I'm guessing if we took a TD poll, an overwhelming majority would say they expected more from him this far into his Twins career.

 

Calling him "clueless," for answering a question posed by local media, at a charity event he voluntarily flew back to attend in the Twin Cities, justmonths after the organization essentially stole a year of financial freedom from him, feels like a bit much. IMO the angst over his performance is misplaced when this topic comes up. Anybody on this board would feel the same way if they were on the receiving end of contract manipulation. 

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#45 ewen21

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 04:03 AM



Calling him "clueless," for answering a question posed by local media, at a charity event he voluntarily flew back to attend in the Twin Cities, just months after the organization essentially stole a year of financial freedom from him, feels like a bit much. IMO the angst over his performance is misplaced when this topic comes up. Anybody on this board would feel the same way if they were on the receiving end of contract manipulation.


Have your other opinions if you want, but this right here is wrong. That is business and he played poorly. He put himself in that position and there was no obligation to bring him up. It's not something for nothing.

To say that "everyone" would have reacted that way is off base. I would not have reacted that way and I would guess a lot of others feel the same. His reaction was too pouty for me. Then for him to cry about "I don't know what they want from me"???

No way am I doing that. To assume otherwise about me is to assume I'm lying here and that is out of hand. Sorry

#46 Riverbrian

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 08:01 AM

I believe in Buxton and I wanted the extra year of service time because I believe in Buxton.

I’m not paying attention to any other reasons being floated. None of it matters in a lost season. The extra year gained is huge to anyone who believes in Buxton and are waiting for that big Buxton year.

Bryant can file all the grievances he wants. He won’t win... the agreement was bargained collectively.

We got an extra year of Buxton. I’m hoping to enjoy it.
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#47 KirbyDome89

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 12:46 PM

 

Have your other opinions if you want, but this right here is wrong. That is business and he played poorly. He put himself in that position and there was no obligation to bring him up. It's not something for nothing.

To say that "everyone" would have reacted that way is off base. I would not have reacted that way and I would guess a lot of others feel the same. His reaction was too pouty for me. Then for him to cry about "I don't know what they want from me"???

No way am I doing that. To assume otherwise about me is to assume I'm lying here and that is out of hand. Sorry

I've never said it wasn't a business move, nor that the Twins were wrong by any legal standard. Buxton didn't "put himself," in that position though, the Twins chose to send him home. Again, look at the 40 players on the roster to end that year and tell me every single one of them was better than Byron Buxton; you can't. 

 

If you watched employees that you, and everybody else knew were inferior to yourself be promoted over you, and you found out that the reason for your lack of movement was that the company wanted to avoid paying you a bonus, you wouldn't be pissed? There would be no hard feelings towards your employer? 

 

I'm not calling you a liar, but I am pointing out that the anger over his on field performance is coloring the view of his service time manipulation to the point where he apparently isn't even allowed to be upset about having a year of FA taken from him. 

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#48 KirbyDome89

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 01:23 PM

 

I believe in Buxton and I wanted the extra year of service time because I believe in Buxton.

I’m not paying attention to any other reasons being floated. None of it matters in a lost season. The extra year gained is huge to anyone who believes in Buxton and are waiting for that big Buxton year.

Bryant can file all the grievances he wants. He won’t win... the agreement was bargained collectively.

We got an extra year of Buxton. I’m hoping to enjoy it.

As a fan it makes total sense to want the extra year. You're the right, the Twins had the option to take the year, and legally speaking they did nothing wrong. That said, it doesn't mean the organization's decision was necessarily right from a relations standpoint, or that it's best for the long term outlook. If the decision to send Buxton home is chalked up as simply business then fine; it's the other rationalizations that really have no base. 


#49 Riverbrian

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 01:33 PM

As a fan it makes total sense to want the extra year. You're the right, the Twins had the option to take the year, and legally speaking they did nothing wrong. That said, it doesn't mean the organization's decision was necessarily right from a relations standpoint, or that it's best for the long term outlook. If the decision to send Buxton home is chalked up as simply business then fine; it's the other rationalizations that really have no base.


It has been the only thing I’ve stated consistently. I want the extra year.

I’m a fan and I’m looking out for MY best interest. I’m not running a charity here. 😀
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#50 spanman2

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 02:01 PM

In neither instance did either the Cubs or Twins do anything outside of what the CBA said they could or couldn't do.I think it is as simple as that for either player to think they are going to get paid forward they are going to be disappointed.Neither team broke any rules.Come next CBA I see those rules changing.

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#51 ewen21

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 02:41 PM

 

 

 

I'm not calling you a liar, but I am pointing out that the anger over his on field performance is coloring the view of his service time manipulation to the point where he apparently isn't even allowed to be upset about having a year of FA taken from him. 

He could get upset if he wants to, but the Twins have nothing to apologize for


#52 ewen21

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 02:54 PM

 

It has been the only thing I’ve stated consistently. I want the extra year.

I’m a fan and I’m looking out for MY best interest. I’m not running a charity here.

 

I wasn't even thinking about the extra year of team control.What does it matter if he misses two months to an injury again?Where is his career going if that happens again?

 

The Twins have given him nothing but support over the years and have tried to make him feel comforable.As soon as he gets hit with adversity, he snapped.The Twins didn't make him hit .156, get injured and suffer migraines.They didn't make him hit in the .220s most of the time he was with Rochester until he finally woke up the last 10 days before the rosters expanded.

 

Does he feel he is supposed to get special treatment because of his draft position or because there are people who fawn over him? Couldn't he have been a stand up guy and acknowledge that he is as responsible (probably more) than the Twins are for what happened?


#53 Riverbrian

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 03:52 PM

 

I wasn't even thinking about the extra year of team control.What does it matter if he misses two months to an injury again?Where is his career going if that happens again?

 

The Twins have given him nothing but support over the years and have tried to make him feel comforable.As soon as he gets hit with adversity, he snapped.The Twins didn't make him hit .156, get injured and suffer migraines.They didn't make him hit in the .220s most of the time he was with Rochester until he finally woke up the last 10 days before the rosters expanded.

 

Does he feel he is supposed to get special treatment because of his draft position or because there are people who fawn over him? Couldn't he have been a stand up guy and acknowledge that he is as responsible (probably more) than the Twins are for what happened?

 

It's a business and these are big boys. The Twins will be alright and Byron Buxton will be alright. From my perspective. I wanted the extra year and I got it. That's all I need. I don't need to pile on the organization or Byron any further. If he becomes what he could become... that extra year will be nice. If he doesn't come around the extra year will not matter. I believe it will eventually matter. 

 

He didn't snap... He answered a question. I have no problem with players expressing themselves. He competed for the Twins this year. He isn't talking about it. It's OK to give him a pass. 

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#54 ewen21

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 04:41 PM

It's a business and these are big boys.

He didn't snap... He answered a question. I have no problem with players expressing themselves. He competed for the Twins this year. He isn't talking about it. It's OK to give him a pass.


He was a lot more animated than I ever saw in an interview. I thought for him to view it as a one way street and not take ownership for having dogsh-- year was weak

He needs to be more concerned about his own game because as Kurt Russell said in Miracle, "there's plenty there to keep you busy"
Then he says he doesn't know what the Twins want from him? How about hit your weight and stay on the field?

No self-awareness on his part and even less introspection, you can say what you want about him expressing himself. He did and I didn't like it

#55 glunn

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Posted 01 November 2019 - 01:00 AM

I don't blame Buxton for being angry or the Twins for making a business decision.I would rather focus on the potential upside for both parties.

 

As I recall, when this came up in an earlier thread a lot of people came to the view that it would be good for everyone if Buxton used his anger to fuel improved performance, especially at the plate. It seems to me that his batting performance improved greatly this year. His OBS of .827 was by far the best of his career -- but he had only 271 ABs. 

 

I think that Buxton has the tools to be be a huge star, but only if he can reduce his time on the DL. Is there any other star player, past or present, who has crashed into outfield walls harder and/or more often than Byron? 

 

Next year I would like to see an angry Buxton playing in at least 150 games and, after that, a long term contract. But if Buxton is not going to commit to being more careful with walls, I wonder if it might be better to trade him before his next collision. And I sure wish that someone would work with Buxton on his bunting skills. With his speed, he would be scary if he could bunt more effectively.

 

 

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#56 ewen21

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 07:24 AM

 

I don't blame Buxton for being angry or the Twins for making a business decision.I would rather focus on the potential upside for both parties.

 

As I recall, when this came up in an earlier thread a lot of people came to the view that it would be good for everyone if Buxton used his anger to fuel improved performance, especially at the plate. It seems to me that his batting performance improved greatly this year. His OBS of .827 was by far the best of his career -- but he had only 271 ABs. 

 

I think that Buxton has the tools to be be a huge star, but only if he can reduce his time on the DL. Is there any other star player, past or present, who has crashed into outfield walls harder and/or more often than Byron? 

 

Next year I would like to see an angry Buxton playing in at least 150 games and, after that, a long term contract. But if Buxton is not going to commit to being more careful with walls, I wonder if it might be better to trade him before his next collision. And I sure wish that someone would work with Buxton on his bunting skills. With his speed, he would be scary if he could bunt more effectively.

He has to play a full season.He has been given four opportunities to do so and he has over 100 games ONCE.If he fails to do so again, or has a weak year offensively in 2020 I don't give a damn about his glove or his speed. The run should be over.

 

This is it for me.I am tired of hearing about his potential and how his glove cures cancer.He is not around half the time (literally) and half the time he is around he is an offensive liability.He needs to be a more reliable player.THe injuries and prolonged bouts of offensive ineptitude is just too much to shrug off anymore.He is in his prime and that isn't going to last long if he keeps on getting hurt


#57 Don Walcott

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 05:38 PM

How did this thread turn into a debate about Buxton's character? I don't believe that is relevant in any way to whether he has a case against the Twins for manipulating his service time.

 

I also don't believe it is relevant that, as a fan, you want an extra year of team control over a player.

 

The question here is whether this conduct is okay. As I pointed out above, if you think it's okay for teams to hold back players for service time for any reason or no reason at all, it's a very slippery slope, and not one that is good for the fans or the players. If you believe roster spots are earned and teams have a duty to play players who have earned their spots, I don't see this as even being a very close call. Bryant should not have been held back. Buxton deserved a roster spot in September 2018.

 

If roster spots cannot be earned by players, I believe the teams holding them back are not acting in good faith, which constitutes a breach of contract. I would definitely take this one to the judge.


#58 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 07:26 AM

 

 

 

I also don't believe it is relevant that, as a fan, you want an extra year of team control over a player.

 

The question here is whether this conduct is okay. As I pointed out above, if you think it's okay for teams to hold back players for service time for any reason or no reason at all, it's a very slippery slope, and not one that is good for the fans or the players. If you believe roster spots are earned and teams have a duty to play players who have earned their spots, I don't see this as even being a very close call. Bryant should not have been held back. Buxton deserved a roster spot in September 2018.

 

If roster spots cannot be earned by players, I believe the teams holding them back are not acting in good faith, which constitutes a breach of contract. I would definitely take this one to the judge.

 

You can't state that my wanting "an extra year of control" is not "relevant" and then state that holding players back is "not one that is good for the FANS or the players". 

 

However, if you wish to limit the conversation to your defined narrow scope of considerations.

 

OK... I'm game... Let's start with the "Slippery Slope" that you mention. John Danks, Phil Hughes, Evan Longoria, Jordan Zimmerman are possible examples of "Service Time Manipulation" from 2007, 2008 and 2009. 

 

If you consider that it has been 12 years time from 2007 to 2019 and the players union just got around to using Kris Bryant as a "Test Case". Can you better define how slippery or slopee the slope actually is? 

 

If you want to cling your hopes on the vague usage of "Good Faith" in the CBA language. Go ahead but it's kind of like using a dog leash to stop a tanker at sea. 

 

 

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#59 yarnivek1972

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 12:27 PM

Johnny Field started 9 games in September 2018 because Buxton wasn’t on the roster.

That’s really the only evidence he would need to show he was deserving.

#60 nicksaviking

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 01:09 PM

Is it stated somewhere that players must be on the 25-man if they are one of the team's 25 best players?

 

I'm just wondering, aside from any PR situations, why teams can't just say "Um, duh. We want you for seven years, not six years." Where are the grievances stemming from, as far as I know it's written into the CBA for teams to do exactly that.

 

The CBA needs to be way more player friendly, but I don't see the legal issue with this.

 

Also, on things to fix with the CBA, I'd start negotiations with the issues that more directly impact the non-top draft picks than the ones that mostly affect guys who already got +3M signing bonuses.

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