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Front Page: Kris Bryant Decision Could Have Ramifications for Twins and Byron Buxton

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#21 rv78

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 03:17 PM

I'd have no problem with Buxton getting any amount he earned. So far, he hasn't earned what he's been paid. Been with the big league club starting in June 2015 and has played in 393 games. That's barely over half the games in those 5 years. 

If the Twins ever get a full season out of him they'll be lucky. Defense is important but when it's only available half the time you're better off with full-time offense.


#22 KirbyDome89

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 03:21 PM

 

Weren't there rumors of the FO approaching Buxton about buying out some of Buxton's arbitration years, similar to the contracts of Polanco and Kepler and Buxton turning the Twins down?

 

I don't see where Buxton really has a gripe, because if it's true, he would have been paid a lot of money for playing in Triple A ball.

Those were considered team friendly deals before either player started this season. It's a even larger W for the Twins in retrospect, especially if their level of play in 19' can be sustained. That type of deal throttles Buxton's earning potential. He's already an elite defender, he's a freak athlete, and we've seen what he can do when healthy. If I'm him on gambling on my performance paying out a higher dividend via arbitration too. 

 

His gripe is that his service time was very obviously manipulated. His decision not to accept a team friendly contract offer doesn't change that fact. Despite all the hand wringing over whether or not he deserved to be on the roster, it's actually a pretty easy case to make. Look at the September roster from that season and ask yourself whether every player on it is better than Byron Buxton. 

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#23 Thrylos

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 04:00 PM

a. Buxton's situation is old news.Since then he did not file even though he had the opportunity to file.

 

b. Teams have the right to keep any player with options in the minor leagues for as long as they want to, for any reason they want to. Nothing was done illegally in either case. If the players' union does not like it, they need to change it in the next CBA. If individual players do not like what their union have signed, they should change their leaders.

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#24 ewen21

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 04:35 PM

 

I don't agree at all. Buxton has had 2 months of good baseball in his career and the rest of it, he has been one of the worst hitters in the league. To be honest, I am still not sold on his bat. He doesn't have a gripe until he can hit with consistency and also not get simple stupid injuries to keep him off the field. So far, he has been as fragile as a China doll. 

If we had this discussion on a baseball board fans of all the other teams would roll their eyes at us.Buxton was a nightmare in 2018.He couldn't hit, got hurt a couple of times and then complained about not knowing what the team wanted from him.

Hello?He hit .156, got injured and didn't get back on the field again for while.When he did his batting average remained in the .220s, .230s in Rochester until he finally started to wake up about ten days before they expanded the roster.So yes, he did hit .365 over the course of 12 games in AAA, but nothing else was mentioning in the opening post about his stats that year.Why not?

 

As far as I am concerned, he needed to look in the mirror, but instead he got heated--at a Children's Hospital no less.That rubbed me the wrong way.He should have held himself more accountable and been more open to understanding the other side of the discussion.He should be grateful to the Twins.With all the struggles he's had he has been treated very, very well by this organization.He has had quite a support system of ex-players, writers, coaches, bloggers, etc...and has received tons of praise even when he has been mired in deep slumps.The Twins gave him one heck of a signing bonus and has been spotty at best offensively and has had trouble staying on the field.Bryant has been in three All Star games and has won an MVP trophy. He has an OPS that is almost .200 points higher than Buxton.How are these two even mentioned in the same conversation?They have virtually nothing in common other than they both got to the big leagues in 2015.The difference?Bryant played in 151 games and won the ROY award.Buxton could not handle major league pitching at all that year.

 

We really need to start having an honest discussion about Buxton.All too often, when threads get started on him the positives get thrown out there, but I don't see the other side of it much.It makes me feel compelled to fill in and present the other side because you never see that in the OP.I believe he is at a crossroads in his career.If he can't get it together soon both health-wise and offensively why in the heck should we extend him?

 

Color me a skeptic.What happened to Chris Bryant was rough, but that is business.He can perhaps make a case for himself.Buxton is an entirely different matter.He needs to simply move on, stay on the field and show more consistency.

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#25 by jiminy

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 05:04 PM

I'm tired of being expected to fawn over Buxton for how hard he plays. As I see it, he routinely and intentionally risks injury in unnecessary and counterproductive ways. Who does that benefit? Not the team. It almost cost the Twins the division this year. That's not heroism, that's selfishness. The idea that he is willing to risk his body for the benefit of his team and his teammates is the opposite of what I see. He is risking his team's success for the benefit of his ego.

 

The team had to ask him to play deeper so he wouldn't crash into the walls so hard? How about just stop crashing into walls so hard? But no, instead he puts on 30 pounds of muscle, from some delusion that makes him injury proof? And no one can call him on it or what, he'll pout? It's embarrassing.

 

If you want to talk about who is exploiting the service time rules, how about Buxton intentionally damaging his team's prize asset, his body, knowing that he will continue accruing service time even while on the shelf?

 

I think Buxton is one of the best players in the league, but I would have serious reservations about signing him to a long term contract unless there was a significant discount based on injury risk. According to his past history, you should expect to get about half the games you pay for from him. That's how much he should be projected to be worth going forward. Anyone who pays him what he's worth at his best for seven years, not for his actual history of intermittent production, is going to get hosed. I've seen no indication from him he intends to protect himself. Even estimating you'll get half the games you pay for is optimistic, because that's assuming he keeps getting back on the field after each injury. Look how long his shoulder took to heal. And he's young and healthy. As the damage accumulates, he'll come back slower and slower, as in, slower to heal, and less productive.

 

Look what concussions did to Mauer, Morneau, and Koskie. What are Buxton's chances of playing as long as they did, at this rate? Morneau and Koskie retired early, and Mauer had to move to first base. Buxton isn't moving to first base. He's either going to have agree to pull up and let a ball drop now and then, or he's going to be out of the league by age 30.

 

The idea that he got screwed out of service time in a year he hit .156/.183/.200 while playing in 28 games is crazy. Yes, he's an all-world fielder, when healthy. Yes, he has tantalizing spurts of good hitting. But I don't think he should have even been on the big league team until he proved he could hit major league pitching. When your team is as bad as the Twins were, why promote a guy before he's ready?

 

He was promoted too early in hopes that he would learn to hit in the majors. It didn't work. He should have been in AAA until he was ready to hit consistently. His major league service time should have been earned when he was actually contributing to his full potential, and the team was good enough for it to matter.

 

I think he'd have made more money over all if he had been allowed to focus on learning his trade in AAA and was promoted when he was ready to be a star. His arb numbers would be huge, and his free agent payday would be monstrous, if his track record was that of a star from day one, not a spotty disappointment with flashes of potential spread over five years. The only reason he was in the majors was to dangle something worth watching in front of the disheartened fans of a 90 loss team.

 

A number one prospect in baseball shouldn't take five years to break a .728 OPS. I think the Twins have been wasting his service time, personally. I don't think he accrued too little service time in the past five years, I think he accrued way too much.

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#26 Jham

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 05:56 PM

Buxton absolutely earned a call up. I remember arguing this topic ad nauseam. He was healthy, was the day 1 starter, and was not brought back because of service time.... also was the day 1 starter in 2019. Health and performance had little to do withholding a promotion in September of 2018.

Buxton and Bryant aren't identical cases, but they are similar. Bryant's case is going to be prescient for Buxton's. I have no remorse for the owners. They've gotten away with this for too long.

I'm honestly surprised how many people aren't on the player's side.


This is a different argument entirely. It's a matter of player's side vs players' (plural) side. Dozens of prospects have been held back, demoted, or even traded due to service time and MLB team need. No one cares. But we're all supposed to feel extra bad for Buxton? Why? Why is his case special? Why be outraged for him compared to the many other good players who didn't get his signing bonus?

The system works exactly like it was designed, to keep younger players in the minors and on cheap deals which allocates more $$ to vets. Except it backfired. Young players are so cheap, they're frequently more desirable than vets even if the vet is a better player. Stop me if you've heard this: "don't sign ______ for $X, when we could get almost the same production from ______ for almost nothing."

So yeah, I support the players because the reps favored vets and negotiated a bad deal. But I don't support Buxton's case as special. The organization gave him every chance. If he plays better, nonstory. if he stays healthy, nonstory. He says he was 100% healthy. But there's still a risk. Bringing him back in a lost season only to see him tweak something go to the DL for a month and lose a full season of his prime? come on. his is the not the case that should generate outrage. as others have mentioned, guys like Garver are getting screwed way more by the deal.
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#27 DocBauer

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 06:51 PM

Going to post a short follow up after reading several intelligent, if passionate posts.

1] I think jts a valid arguement Buxton was promoted too early when he had some rough edges that additional milb time might have smoothed over. Remember, some injuries robbed him of said developmental time. Also, there should have been a better plan in place by the previous FO so he wasn't rushed. Same thing happened to Hicks, if you recall. Technically, his service time probably started a little earlier than it should have. This is NOT picking on Byron at all, just reflecting on opinions and 20/20 hindsight that is clearly evident.

2] While this opinion is debatable to be sure, I think it could be easily argued that after a disappointing, miserable and jnjury-plagued 2018, even after a hot streak the last few weeks didn't earn him a promotion back up, he may have been better off not coming up and just having his season and when it did.

Why? What if he had dinged himself again? What if be bas struggled poorly at the end of a lost season? Both situations could have lead to a different Buxton than the one we saw the first half of 2019. He worked hard gained muscle, and flashed the tremendous talent and potential we have been waiting to see before his shoulder injury shelved him.

I think the FO was being extremely forthright when they stated, very openly, that service time was only one part of the equation. And based on agreed terms, it was there right after a lost season to use that consideration. But I think they were also open and honest that their greatest concern was getting him right for 2019.
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#28 Kelly Vance

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 08:27 AM

 

If we had this discussion on a baseball board fans of all the other teams would roll their eyes at us.Buxton was a nightmare in 2018.He couldn't hit, got hurt a couple of times and then complained about not knowing what the team wanted from him.

Hello?He hit .156, got injured and didn't get back on the field again for while.When he did his batting average remained in the .220s, .230s in Rochester until he finally started to wake up about ten days before they expanded the roster.So yes, he did hit .365 over the course of 12 games in AAA, but nothing else was mentioning in the opening post about his stats that year.Why not?

 

As far as I am concerned, he needed to look in the mirror, but instead he got heated--at a Children's Hospital no less.That rubbed me the wrong way.He should have held himself more accountable and been more open to understanding the other side of the discussion.He should be grateful to the Twins.With all the struggles he's had he has been treated very, very well by this organization.He has had quite a support system of ex-players, writers, coaches, bloggers, etc...and has received tons of praise even when he has been mired in deep slumps.The Twins gave him one heck of a signing bonus and has been spotty at best offensively and has had trouble staying on the field.Bryant has been in three All Star games and has won an MVP trophy. He has an OPS that is almost .200 points higher than Buxton.How are these two even mentioned in the same conversation?They have virtually nothing in common other than they both got to the big leagues in 2015.The difference?Bryant played in 151 games and won the ROY award.Buxton could not handle major league pitching at all that year.

 

We really need to start having an honest discussion about Buxton.All too often, when threads get started on him the positives get thrown out there, but I don't see the other side of it much.It makes me feel compelled to fill in and present the other side because you never see that in the OP.I believe he is at a crossroads in his career.If he can't get it together soon both health-wise and offensively why in the heck should we extend him?

 

Color me a skeptic.What happened to Chris Bryant was rough, but that is business.He can perhaps make a case for himself.Buxton is an entirely different matter.He needs to simply move on, stay on the field and show more consistency.

I think you are being unfair. Buck injured his foot and tried to play through the injury. You criticize his low batting average, but you blow through his playing hurt. That is unfair. Completely unfair. When he finally healed up he was hitting again. You mention that like it was nothing. Again, unfair.In 2019 he showed up stronger and had put on 20 pounds of muscle.That shows off season dedication. You give him no credit for that. Buck started off the season hitting like an All Star. You simply refuse to give the guy credit. And that is unfair.  

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#29 Kelly Vance

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 08:38 AM

 

I'm tired of being expected to fawn over Buxton for how hard he plays. As I see it, he routinely and intentionally risks injury in unnecessary and counterproductive ways. Who does that benefit? Not the team. It almost cost the Twins the division this year. That's not heroism, that's selfishness. The idea that he is willing to risk his body for the benefit of his team and his teammates is the opposite of what I see. He is risking his team's success for the benefit of his ego.

 

The team had to ask him to play deeper so he wouldn't crash into the walls so hard? How about just stop crashing into walls so hard? But no, instead he puts on 30 pounds of muscle, from some delusion that makes him injury proof? And no one can call him on it or what, he'll pout? It's embarrassing.

 

If you want to talk about who is exploiting the service time rules, how about Buxton intentionally damaging his team's prize asset, his body, knowing that he will continue accruing service time even while on the shelf?

 

I think Buxton is one of the best players in the league, but I would have serious reservations about signing him to a long term contract unless there was a significant discount based on injury risk. According to his past history, you should expect to get about half the games you pay for from him. That's how much he should be projected to be worth going forward. Anyone who pays him what he's worth at his best for seven years, not for his actual history of intermittent production, is going to get hosed. I've seen no indication from him he intends to protect himself. Even estimating you'll get half the games you pay for is optimistic, because that's assuming he keeps getting back on the field after each injury. Look how long his shoulder took to heal. And he's young and healthy. As the damage accumulates, he'll come back slower and slower, as in, slower to heal, and less productive.

 

Look what concussions did to Mauer, Morneau, and Koskie. What are Buxton's chances of playing as long as they did, at this rate? Morneau and Koskie retired early, and Mauer had to move to first base. Buxton isn't moving to first base. He's either going to have agree to pull up and let a ball drop now and then, or he's going to be out of the league by age 30.

 

The idea that he got screwed out of service time in a year he hit .156/.183/.200 while playing in 28 games is crazy. Yes, he's an all-world fielder, when healthy. Yes, he has tantalizing spurts of good hitting. But I don't think he should have even been on the big league team until he proved he could hit major league pitching. When your team is as bad as the Twins were, why promote a guy before he's ready?

 

He was promoted too early in hopes that he would learn to hit in the majors. It didn't work. He should have been in AAA until he was ready to hit consistently. His major league service time should have been earned when he was actually contributing to his full potential, and the team was good enough for it to matter.

 

I think he'd have made more money over all if he had been allowed to focus on learning his trade in AAA and was promoted when he was ready to be a star. His arb numbers would be huge, and his free agent payday would be monstrous, if his track record was that of a star from day one, not a spotty disappointment with flashes of potential spread over five years. The only reason he was in the majors was to dangle something worth watching in front of the disheartened fans of a 90 loss team.

 

A number one prospect in baseball shouldn't take five years to break a .728 OPS. I think the Twins have been wasting his service time, personally. I don't think he accrued too little service time in the past five years, I think he accrued way too much.

This post is unfair as well.You call his crashing into walls to catch a ball to help his team selfish?Man, I don't know how that is fair. And he did NOT almost cost the team the division this year.There are 25 players on a roster. Several of them missed extensive time with injuries. But you blame Buck. Only Buck. That is unfair, completely unfair. And your saying that Buck intentionally damaged himself is not only unfair, it is a complete fabrication. You are just making stuff up. Then you say the team asked him to play deeper to avoid injury.There is absolutely no evidence of this. None. You don't know whatthe coaches said to Buck.  

 

 

Edited by Kelly Vance, 29 October 2019 - 08:38 AM.

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#30 Kelly Vance

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 08:41 AM

 

This is a different argument entirely. It's a matter of player's side vs players' (plural) side. Dozens of prospects have been held back, demoted, or even traded due to service time and MLB team need. No one cares. But we're all supposed to feel extra bad for Buxton? Why? Why is his case special? Why be outraged for him compared to the many other good players who didn't get his signing bonus?

The system works exactly like it was designed, to keep younger players in the minors and on cheap deals which allocates more $$ to vets. Except it backfired. Young players are so cheap, they're frequently more desirable than vets even if the vet is a better player. Stop me if you've heard this: "don't sign ______ for $X, when we could get almost the same production from ______ for almost nothing."

So yeah, I support the players because the reps favored vets and negotiated a bad deal. But I don't support Buxton's case as special. The organization gave him every chance. If he plays better, nonstory. if he stays healthy, nonstory. He says he was 100% healthy. But there's still a risk. Bringing him back in a lost season only to see him tweak something go to the DL for a month and lose a full season of his prime? come on. his is the not the case that should generate outrage. as others have mentioned, guys like Garver are getting screwed way more by the deal.

You don't know that any of that would have happened. And I don't get what you mean about losing a month on the DL and then a full season.We lost the month when they refused to call him up. As for losing a full season... I don't get thateither. You are assuming he would get hurt so badly in the September call up he would lose all of 2019?Really? Nice fiction piece. But its not what happened and you don't know that it would have. What you said is like your boss saying he needs to lay you off because you might have a heart attack at work. 

Edited by Kelly Vance, 29 October 2019 - 08:45 AM.

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#31 Battle ur tail off

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 08:52 AM

I'd just love to see the guy give us a full year on the field. If he could play 150 games, the Twins could finally see what they have in him and make a decision to either pay him, or to use him as trade bait. So far, it is pretty hard for anyone to know exactly what you are going to get from the guy. 

 

I still think it would be a mistake to trade him. I just don't think he is worth a ton and the potential he has is much greater than what you might expect to get back in a trade. That said, it is time for the guy to stay on that field and prove he is worth a contract. 

 


#32 Kelly Vance

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 08:52 AM

I have stood up for players being unfairly criticized for years now.I remember standing up for Doze. He carried the team in long stretches and was the only Twin besides Killer to hit 40 HRs. Until this year. But people still criticized him for slow starts. Unfair.

 

I stood up for Joe Mauer when people criticized him unfairly. One poster said he was not "clutch" disregarding the FACT that he had the highest BA in the league with runners in scoring position. One guy said Joe was "not good at baseball."What rubbish. The guyis likely to be a hall of famer.

 

I don't know where all the negativity about Buck comes from. The guy tries his best on every play and he gets criticized for sacrificing his body to help his team. He played hurt and his numbers fell off. He gets no credit for going out there injured and playing anyway, for your entertainment. His critics are largely unfair and he deserves better. 

 

 

Edited by Kelly Vance, 29 October 2019 - 08:57 AM.


#33 Battle ur tail off

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 08:56 AM

 

I think you are being unfair. Buck injured his foot and tried to play through the injury. You criticize his low batting average, but you blow through his playing hurt. That is unfair. Completely unfair. When he finally healed up he was hitting again. You mention that like it was nothing. Again, unfair.In 2019 he showed up stronger and had put on 20 pounds of muscle.That shows off season dedication. You give him no credit for that. Buck started off the season hitting like an All Star. You simply refuse to give the guy credit. And that is unfair.  

 

So far, to me, he hasn't shown he can play through injuries at all. Super minor ones as well. Sprained thumb keeps him out for 55 days. Groin strain keeps him out for 17 days. Almost an entire season shut down over a fractured toe. 

 

I mean, I understand all of this, but he wants to be Kirby Puckett, then toughen up. Sprained thumb? How about tape it up and get your arse back in there. Fractured toe? Let it heal for 15-20 days and lets go. Groin strain? A week of rest should do it. 

 

Like I said, I really like him and hope he can give the team what he has shown he is capable of. I just don't feel there is any reason he is owed extra money over the service time thing in 2018.

Edited by Battle ur tail off, 29 October 2019 - 08:58 AM.


#34 Kelly Vance

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 09:03 AM

 

So far, to me, he hasn't shown he can play through injuries at all. Super minor ones as well. Sprained thumb keeps him out for 55 days. Groin strain keeps him out for 17 days. Almost an entire season shut down over a fractured toe. 

 

I mean, I understand all of this, but he wants to be Kirby Puckett, then toughen up. Sprained thumb? How about tape it up and get your arse back in there. Fractured toe? Let it heal for 15-20 days and lets go. Groin strain? A week of rest should do it. 

 

Like I said, I really like him and hope he can give the team what he has shown he is capable of. I just don't feel there is any reason he is owed extra money over the service time thing in 2018.

 I have had a wrist injury. It took a whole year to heal.I have broken my toe. Cost me a full season of track (I was a sprinter) . Thumbs get hurt, you can't grip a bat.These are not minor injuries. Compared to a broken leg, they seem like it, but they are not minor. Its not about pain.These types of injuries take you out.The wrist, thumb, and toe don't function, you can't play. 


#35 cardsfan

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 09:57 AM

I am not sold on Buxton, in fact I am willing to accept the label of being the least enamored of TD readers, but this is not about the player and in the economics of the game I am sympathetic to Buxton's case against the team. I was so blatant.

If the Twins were in the pennant race in September 2018 they could argue we would have brought him up for his defense, but, considering how bad a year he had up here we thought he should join us in the spring.

#36 Jham

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 10:10 AM

You don't know that any of that would have happened. And I don't get what you mean about losing a month on the DL and then a full season. We lost the month when they refused to call him up. As for losing a full season... I don't get that either. You are assuming he would get hurt so badly in the September call up he would lose all of 2019? Really? Nice fiction piece. But its not what happened and you don't know that it would have. What you said is like your boss saying he needs to lay you off because you might have a heart attack at work.


Fiction? I'm stating what happened. He wasn't called up over concern that we were trading a month off Buxton in a lost year where he was bad and hurt for an entire year of arbitration eligibility where he's presumably had an off-season to prepare, more mature, better hitter, and the team needs him.

If they call him up cuz he says he's good and the first week he's back he runs to first and his bone cracks and needs screws and his fascia tears, he goes on the MLB DL. He acquires service time for the rest of the season. Because of that month on the MLB DL, he now hits free agency a year earlier. What does he put up for WAR in 1 month of 2018? What does he put up for WAR in his final year of arbitration eligibility? Fragility argument aside, it's an easy decision.

#37 Don Walcott

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 10:48 AM

As a fan, I want to see the best players playing in the majors for every team. I feel empathy for older players who might not be able to continue getting a major league pay check because of a younger player taking their position. But the younger player also has a right to that major league pay check, if they are the better player.

 

I keep hearing the argument that ownership is only following the rules that are in place by keeping a player in the minor leagues to increase the number of years of control. If we accept this argument, there is a very slippery slope ahead. If we accept that ownership does not have an obligation to the fans and the players to field the best team available to them, we are allowing the rules to be perverted in ways that damage the integrity of the game.

 

For example: Fernando Tatis, Jr. looks like a future superstar right now. But he missed all of May, most of August and all of September due to injuries. Let's say the Padres can't sign the free agents they need or trade for the players they need to be competitive with LA in 2020. Seems likely. The Padres have a long-term contract with Machado, and are serious about building a team in the future. So what's to stop them in 2020 from saying that they are worried that, by playing in the majors, Tatis will hurt himself and jeopardize his future? Could they bury Tatis in the minors for 2020 to gain an extra year of control that will extend their window of contention? Do the rules really allow ownership to keep any player in the minors for any reason? If not, where do we draw the line?

 

I believe we draw the line at the point where a player in your system clearly deserves a roster spot in the majors. Bryant wins his case on this basis. Buxton wins his case on this basis. In case there's any doubt that Buxton would have been the starting center fielder in September 2018, just look at how the team treated him before his injuries and after. He was the team's starting center fielder both before and after. In fact, as damage control, the team basically announced he was going to be the opening day starting center fielder in 2019 during last off season. In one way, his case is even clearer than Bryant's. Bryant hadn't yet proven himself in the majors when he was held back. Buxton was already a gold glove, platinum glove, MVP vote-getting starter for his team. He had a rough season mostly due to migraines, a broken toe and a sprained wrist. In 2019, he has proven that he should have been starting in September 2018, just as he had earned that spot in 2017. Based on his ability, there is simply no question he should have been starting in center field in September 2018.

 

If you believe the Twins were justified in holding Buxton back due to fear about him injuring himself, then you would have to accept that the Padres could do the same with Tatis in 2020. It's a very slippery slope if you don't draw the line at a player being entitled to a roster spot based on merit. I also think it's unfair to the players and the fans to allow ownership to keep a player down purely for financial reasons.

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#38 gunnarthor

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 10:55 AM

 

Look at how much service time and MLB salary Buxton has received while on the IL/DL. Look how patient we were allowing him to accumulate service time while struggling with the big club. We could have optioned him this September but didn't.

His injury history almost assuredly plays in. After last year, the team certainly could have activated Buxton then optioned him out of spring training in the traditional manner of holding a player back. If he killed it on September and ST, then keep him up and don't worry about service time. But you're leaving yourself vulnerable for another tweak and more IL service time you can't get back.

He had less than 100 at-bats in the majors that year and was coming off a 5 WAR season. The team made him play hurt early in the year, he didn't have that many at-bats in the minors either (less than 150) but had a .900+ OPS after July. Plus the Twins promoted worse players as injuries decimated our OF (Johnny Field, I believe). The Twins kept him down to get the extra service time, not because he hadn't earned the call up. 

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#39 Jham

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 12:34 PM

He had less than 100 at-bats in the majors that year and was coming off a 5 WAR season. The team made him play hurt early in the year, he didn't have that many at-bats in the minors either (less than 150) but had a .900+ OPS after July. Plus the Twins promoted worse players as injuries decimated our OF (Johnny Field, I believe). The Twins kept him down to get the extra service time, not because he hadn't earned the call up.


No one including the front office is saying that service time wasn't a consideration. Of course it was. Made him play hurt or let him play hurt? You realize that once he was cleared to play, they were free to option him instead of play him if service time was such a primary concern? Instead they decided to see if he could go. And he wasn't good.

Would you really rather have had Buxton for September 2018 than for all of 2022? Is Buxton a victim of loophole in the labor deal? Yes. Is his case different than any other player held back despite being ready? No. Pretty much every young player deals with this. What your saying is that every player good enough to be in the bigs has to be in the bigs or they got screwed. Should Smeltzer be mad that he lost service time to Kohl Stewart or Ryne Harper? Should Gordon be mad that Arraez jumped him on the depth chart?

Evidence suggests that many factors beyond service time were considered. Place in the standings, Evaluation of Cave and Kepler as centerfielders, Buxton's health and performance vs prior poor performance were all factors. I disagree that Buxton earned a call-up. I'll agree to the premise that played well enough to justify a call up, but so do many players who get left off. Buxton's case isn't special. Do think the front office was tempted to pull the trigger on Alex Kiriloff this fall? Did he play well enough? Was he a better player than Lamarre? Could the Twins have used his superior bat? Think starting the service time clock was a consideration in holding him back?
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#40 ewen21

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 03:26 PM

 

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If you believe the Twins were justified in holding Buxton back due to fear about him injuring himself, then you would have to accept that the Padres could do the same with Tatis in 2020. It's a very slippery slope if you don't draw the line at a player being entitled to a roster spot based on merit. I also think it's unfair to the players and the fans to allow ownership to keep a player down purely for financial reasons.

No, wrong.

 

This delusion that the Twins "held him back" really is something a lot of us feel is the fundamental flaw in your argument.He was not held back.The Twins have done everything they can to instill confidence in this player.When he was hitting around .100 at the beginning of the season a few years ago Molitor and some of the players said he can hit .100 and still be a valuable player.Really??Really?

James Rowson said, "over my dead body" when it was opined that maybe he should be sent down.

 

Why should he get a pass is what I would like to know?Why are we having to placate this guy?I heard so much about what a high character kid he was and yet there he was in a children's hospital at a charity event ranting about not being called up.

 

Sorry dude.Look in the mirror.The Twins didn't run into walls, get migraines, hurt their hand and hit .156.The Twins didn't hit like garbage in Rochester until he finally woke up about 10 days before the deadline.

 

And why are we comparing him to Bryant or Tatis?Bryant is way better and Tatis come up as a 20 year old and played like a champ.Buxton still looks completely lost in the batters box half the time.Worst of all, he can't stay on the field and that doesn't help his development.

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