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Front Page: Twins Trade Targets: 4 Potential Starting Pitching Upgrades

matthew boyd robbie ray jon gray joe musgrove
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#21 Vanimal46

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 11:10 AM

All of these pitchers would be a fine replacement for Gibson. I would love to aim higher on another player like Wheeler, MadBum, or Ryu.
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#22 SF Twins Fan

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 11:48 AM

 

Trade for good players, without dealing good prospects? That's not how it works. That's not what Houston, or the Yankees, or the red Sox, or any of the winners do it.

 

I don't know that I would consider these four pitchers on the same level as any of the pitchers for Houston or the Red Sox when they traded for them.

Edited by SF Twins Fan, 17 October 2019 - 11:51 AM.

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#23 Mike Sixel

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 12:14 PM

I don't know that I would consider these four pitchers on the same level as any of the pitchers for Houston or the Red Sox when they traded for them.


That's not the content I was replying to.... But agreed.

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#24 birdwatcher

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 12:22 PM

 

Trade for good players, without dealing good prospects? That's not how it works. That's not what Houston, or the Yankees, or the red Sox, or any of the winners do it.

 

 

I believe you're describing Houston's trade history inaccurately, Mike. They traded smartly, from prospect surplus, but they did not trade anyone like Royce Lewis, Alex Kirilloff, and Brusdar Graterol. To their credit, they HAVE made a handful of trades maybe even more brilliant than the Palacios for Odorizzi trade.

 

You mention the Yankees. Why not mention the Cubs? They dealt a good prospect to the Yankees for a good player. Gleyber Torrez might end up being a league MVP and an absolute stud for a decade. 

 

Why not mention the White Sox? We might hate facing their lineup as early as next year when good prospects surface: Kopech, Moncada, Giolito, Jiminez...

Edited by birdwatcher, 17 October 2019 - 01:01 PM.

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#25 raindog

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 12:23 PM

Y'all. Imagine Matthew Boyd going from Rick Anderson to Wes Johnson. With his stuff, and a legit pitching coach, he's going to be great. 

 

Especially if MLB goes back to a normal baseball, which would help with his biggest weakness. Not that we can count on that. 

Edited by raindog, 17 October 2019 - 12:24 PM.

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#26 Mike Sixel

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 12:33 PM

I believe you're describing Houston's trade history with inaccurately, Mike. They traded smartly, from prospect surplus, but they did not trade anyone like Royce Lewis, Alex Kirilloff, and Brusdar Graterol. To their credit, they HAVE made a handful of trades maybe even more brilliant than the Palacios for Odorizzi trade.

You mention the Yankees. Why not mention the Cubs? They dealt a good prospect to the Yankees for a good player. Gleyber Torrez might end up being a league MVP and an absolute stud for a decade.

Why not mention the White Sox? We might hate facing their lineup as early as next year when good prospects surface: Kopech, Moncada, Giolito, Jiminez...


The Cubs win the world series, and until this year made the playoffs....

Sometimes trades work, and sometimes not. But suggesting never trading top prospects.... That seems unrealistic to me, if you want great players in return. I could be wrong, maybe they can get great players back without every dealing actual good or great prospects....

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#27 nicksaviking

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 12:46 PM

I'd like Gray quite a bit. I could take a chance on Ray as well, I don't think he's as good as his numbers but I also don't think AZ is the best place to unlock potential, there might still be more to him.

 

No interest in Boyd.

 

Musgrove is interesting though. He doesn't wow anyone, but the guy can and does throw every pitch under the sun, I love that repertoire. Also, I'm interested in the fact that he saw a velocity drop at the beginning of last year but he saw it increase through the season and by September he was averaging 95 MPH on his four seamer. Yeah, I like the idea of Musgrove not yet hitting his peak, I'm in.

 

Also, still get Gray too.

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#28 Number3

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 12:46 PM

A kind of quandary is that its hard to improve upon a regular season record of 101 games won. Any tinkering with a lineup that did that will have unknown results. There is always some shuffling of players so that will happen anyway. Assuming Pineda comes back I hope the Twins don't take the playoffs for granted and mess too much with a team to get to October games that may never come. Fact is and always will be that everyone needs more pitching all the time if not starters its bull pen. I'm sure they will find a couple of arms somewhere. No question Gibson should be replaced in the initial plan but maybe Sano can help out in the DR this year and Gibson can stay home and put on some weight.


#29 birdwatcher

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 01:11 PM

 

The Cubs win the world series, and until this year made the playoffs....

Sometimes trades work, and sometimes not. But suggesting never trading top prospects.... That seems unrealistic to me, if you want great players in return. I could be wrong, maybe they can get great players back without every dealing actual good or great prospects....

 

 

Who has suggested never trading top prospects, Mike? 

 

The facts are there for you to see with respect to the trades. I've made an effort to help you examine those facts. When you use vague terms like "great players" and "actual good or great prospects" instead of doing a deeper dive, you're suggesting that you may be more interested in your point of view than you are in much else.

 

The Cubs? I don't know, Mike. Maybe you're right, and the singular reason they win the world series is because they trade actual good or great prospects for great players in return.;)

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#30 jkcarew

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 02:10 PM

Like others here, I think these names probably would work...they go in the middle of the rotation. But, we also need help at the top.

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#31 Mike Sixel

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 02:15 PM

I've been on the Gray wagon for years......but he's got less and less team control left, and a longer history of not succeeding like I hope.....that said, I don't think much of CO's FO, and their ability with pitchers, so I'd target him (but then, I've wanted him in MN since the draft.....so what do I know?).....

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It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#32 nicksaviking

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 03:25 PM

 

I've been on the Gray wagon for years......but he's got less and less team control left, and a longer history of not succeeding like I hope.....that said, I don't think much of CO's FO, and their ability with pitchers, so I'd target him (but then, I've wanted him in MN since the draft.....so what do I know?).....

 

Yeah, aside from what looks to be pretty good stuff, this is always a selling point with me. 


#33 Thrylos

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:58 PM

 

I've been on the Gray wagon for years......but he's got less and less team control left, and a longer history of not succeeding like I hope.....that said, I don't think much of CO's FO, and their ability with pitchers, so I'd target him (but then, I've wanted him in MN since the draft.....so what do I know?).....

 

The weird thing about Gray is that he is pitching much better at Coors than on the road.I'd pass really fast.

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#34 Mike Sixel

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 08:07 PM

The weird thing about Gray is that he is pitching much better at Coors than on the road. I'd pass really fast.


He'd be my second or third acquisition.... Not the headliner.

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#35 Loosey

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 09:12 PM

I think each of these options improve upon their previous success if they come to MN. The Twins have recently shown their ability to get the most out their players and I think they can do that with these guys.
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#36 markos

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Posted 18 October 2019 - 09:21 AM

 

I think each of these options improve upon their previous success if they come to MN. The Twins have recently shown their ability to get the most out their players and I think they can do that with these guys.

I think this is really important point to keep in mind. The Astros in particular did not go out an trade for two of the best pitchers in baseball when they acquired the 2017 Verlander and Cole. They traded for good pitchers that they were able to transform into two of the best pitchers in baseball. If the goal is to find a pitcher that currently slots ahead of Berrios/Odorizzi, it is extremely unlikely that the Twins will be able to acquire one - pitchers of that current quality are almost all already on contending teams and I don't see them outbidding everyone for Cole. So I think the goal is to find a pitcher or pitchers of current lesser quality but with upside, with the expectation that this pitcher development staff will be able to help them make a leap. I think these 4 pitchers all fit that criteria considering their age, their current track records, and the track records of their current organizations.

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#37 Twins33

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Posted 18 October 2019 - 12:20 PM

The Cubs win the world series, and until this year made the playoffs....
Sometimes trades work, and sometimes not. But suggesting never trading top prospects.... That seems unrealistic to me, if you want great players in return. I could be wrong, maybe they can get great players back without every dealing actual good or great prospects....

I think you’re missing what birdwatcher said. Houston got Verlander without having to trade their “Royce Lewis.” They got Cole without having to trade their “Royce Lewis.”

Why can’t the Twins do the same? I think that’s what birdwatcher is intending. Houston has made great trades with out trading their very top guys. The Twins should try to do that if possible. It may not be possible, but the Astros have done it several times and that’s definitely something the Twins should try to emulate.
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#38 Vanimal46

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Posted 18 October 2019 - 12:34 PM

I think you’re missing what birdwatcher said. Houston got Verlander without having to trade their “Royce Lewis.” They got Cole without having to trade their “Royce Lewis.”

Why can’t the Twins do the same? I think that’s what birdwatcher is intending. Houston has made great trades with out trading their very top guys. The Twins should try to do that if possible. It may not be possible, but the Astros have done it several times and that’s definitely something the Twins should try to emulate.


Sure, every team will try to emulate that philosophy not trading their top prospect. The deal with prospects though is not knowing if the 13th best player on the list will end up with the best MLB career or not.

Arraez could have been thought of a throw in for a trade last year at this time because he was maybe 20th on the prospect list.
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#39 Mike Sixel

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Posted 18 October 2019 - 01:07 PM

I think you’re missing what birdwatcher said. Houston got Verlander without having to trade their “Royce Lewis.” They got Cole without having to trade their “Royce Lewis.”

Why can’t the Twins do the same? I think that’s what birdwatcher is intending. Houston has made great trades with out trading their very top guys. The Twins should try to do that if possible. It may not be possible, but the Astros have done it several times and that’s definitely something the Twins should try to emulate.


I'm not missing the point... I'm saying it isn't always that easy.... Also, I'm saying we are still waiting for them to even trade three good prospects for one player, let alone do it multiple times.... And have it work every time.

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#40 Riverbrian

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Posted 18 October 2019 - 01:09 PM

 

I think this is really important point to keep in mind. The Astros in particular did not go out an trade for two of the best pitchers in baseball when they acquired the 2017 Verlander and Cole. They traded for good pitchers that they were able to transform into two of the best pitchers in baseball. If the goal is to find a pitcher that currently slots ahead of Berrios/Odorizzi, it is extremely unlikely that the Twins will be able to acquire one - pitchers of that current quality are almost all already on contending teams and I don't see them outbidding everyone for Cole. So I think the goal is to find a pitcher or pitchers of current lesser quality but with upside, with the expectation that this pitcher development staff will be able to help them make a leap. I think these 4 pitchers all fit that criteria considering their age, their current track records, and the track records of their current organizations.

 

This is it exactly. And this is what the crux of this article is about. 

 

The Astros are extremely successful getting players to fly correctly. From unheralded prospects Dallas Kuechel and Jose Altuve to trade acquisitions coming off down years like Justin Verlander and Garrit Cole. 

 

The Twins need to be able to do this for long term success. And they need to start right now. 

 

Tomorrow is here. 

 

 

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