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Front Page: The Underappreciated, Hard-Luck Legacy of Kyle Gibson

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#41 ND-Fan

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 01:03 PM

Thethings that made him change his pitching also has been one of his faults because he never could get to level to let the pitch fly when he had lead he was always trying to be perfect. This led to his walking batters and giving up big innings driving fans crazy. I still thing he has place with the Twins but i am afraidhis time here has ended. As individual he is what youre looking to add to a team from reports i have heard about him. This last couple of months he shouldhave been put on disabled list but i am afraid him being a free agent had some thought on this too. Its sad but this happen to many times to the Twins players coming into the playoffs how many times did we reach playoffs with several of star players either on disabled list or only shell of what they were earlier in the season.I wonder when baseball analytics will figure it out that these players need break not just a day but like missing a road trip where they can heal up. Football plan it into there season and they also can just not have play for week on active roster. The level that is expected of these players and physical training they do takes alot out of there bodies.


#42 yarnivek1972

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 01:20 PM

Following up ...

I have no ill-will toward Kyle. By every appearance, he's a good man, someone you'd want representing your baseball team off the field, and I've never read a word about him being anything other than a good teammate.

He had a run where he was a very effective pitcher - it looked like he'd figured things out, gotten some "swagger," some belief in his stuff, where he'd go after hitters and get them out.

That's gone now, and has been for a while. He pitches as if he believes every single mistake he makes is going to wind up in the upper deck; he just doesn't seem to believe his stuff is good enough to get guys out.

Long time ago, I heard Frank Viola tell a story, about when he was "green," wondering it he could get major league hitters out, and having trouble throwing strikes because of it. His catcher at the time - whoever it was - basically told him "we're throwing it down the middle, whatever we throw tonight." Frank complied, discovered his "stuff" was pretty good, and gained the confidence to go after hitters.

Once Frank got to where he wasn't so afraid of making mistakes, he made fewer of them, and his "good stuff" became even more effective.

Kyle simply doesn't believe in what he's doing. At least, that's what I see.


Probably Sal Butera.

#43 insagt1

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 01:30 PM

Great story. Helps us all regain some perspective. Major props!!

I doubt the Twins were planning on re-signing him even before his disastrous appearances. I believe they wish to move on. Could he help another team? Perhaps.

What I remember most about his Twins career was our saying before each start...do we get good Gibson or bad Gibson tonite. He was very inconsistent.

 

I think he's done for this season though.


#44 Vagnavs

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 01:38 PM

 



Could be a reason why Gibson is under appreciated. Too many meh to bad starts sprinkled in with some gems.

 

He's underappreciated for reason, look at the company he is in. It's unfortunate he has never reached his full potential and dealt with numerous injuries.

 

I welcome a change and wish him the best of luck in the future..

 

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#45 Thrylos

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 01:46 PM

 

Do folks think the FO wont try to keep him?
Why?
I dont have great confidence in the guy but he's a fine #4 or #5 guy.

If he could be kept for reasonable amount of $$ and years do it.

 

I think that you answered your own question:

 

They will find#5 guys within the organization (Smeltzer, Thorpe, Dobnak, Jax, etc.) for minimum salary or better #4 outside the organization (Bailey, Chacin, Gonzalez, etc) for half to 1/3 his price (about 3/$36M.)

 

I think that the Twins should stop spending that much $ for bottom of the rotation types and start using it to sign top of the rotation types they really need.Not the Gibsons (career 4.53 ERA with the Twins,) Correias (4.49), and Hughes (4.61) of the world.For some reason I do not remember cries of re-signing Correia after a very similar season (4.94 ERA, 1.461 WHIP for Correia then, 4.88 ERA, 1.430 WHIP and worsening for Gibson now.)

 

This team is a competitor and better start behaving like one.

Edited by Thrylos, 20 September 2019 - 01:46 PM.

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#46 HitInAPinch

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 02:02 PM

 

Does anyone here remember the conversation Paul Molitor had with Gibson on the mound in the summer of 2017? Gibson was pitching that day much like he had the first half of the year. He was not having a good year and was nibbling too much. At least, as memory serves, Moliy thought so and chewed him out on a trip to the mound. Molly was much more animated than usual, so you could see something unusual was going on. Anyway, Gibson started throwing his 4-seam fastball more and threw it for strikes. He challenged hitters more and started to pitch much better after that mound visit! Not only in that particular game, but for the rest of the year.

The nibbling was the thing that really annoyed me.Gibson would start-off having some good innings.Then, all of a sudden, crap.Couldn't roll a sinker over the plate.  

 

Still, only 31.I just don't know.The inconsistency is really aggravating.  

It's not my fault !


#47 tarheeltwinsfan

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 02:22 PM

I admire Kyle Gibson as a man and as a professional athlete. I wish him nothing but the best, as I'm sure all of us at TD wish for him. 

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#48 birdwatcher

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 02:39 PM

Of the 49 prospects described as first round selections in the 2009 draft, only 7 of them have generated more WAR than Kyle Gibson. Gibson deserves credit for being dedicated to his craft. He has faced and overcome some real challenges as Nick has nicely pointed out.

 

It's possible that he's reached a point where this disease, which has no known cure, will keep him from fully regaining his capabilities as a pitcher. But if the medical professionals and Gibson both are convinced he can come back, I can easily imagine him signing a prove-it one year deal with the Twins.

 

I have to confess, however, that aesthetically he somehow leaves me kind of flatlined even when he's going well. Could be the slow pace I suppose. Like everyone else, I'd love to see him rise up to this latest challenge.

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#49 nicksaviking

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 02:50 PM

 

I think that you answered your own question:

 

They will find#5 guys within the organization (Smeltzer, Thorpe, Dobnak, Jax, etc.) for minimum salary or better #4 outside the organization (Bailey, Chacin, Gonzalez, etc) for half to 1/3 his price (about 3/$36M.)

 

 

If those are the alternatives, I think I'd rather have Gibson. Mostly because I think you found your 3/36M figure from last year's extension discussion threads. If Gibson gets better than a one year deal + an option year he's got the best agent on the planet.

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#50 rv78

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 02:56 PM

 

Technically Trout isn't on the IL either, so I'd say it's a wash between him and Gibson. :)

Mike Trout verses Kyle Gibson will never be a wash in any way, shape, or form. One is far and away superior over the other. Take a guess who it is.

Edited by rv78, 20 September 2019 - 03:04 PM.


#51 mickeymental

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 03:04 PM

 

Mike Trout verses Kyle Gibson will never be a wash. One is far and away superior over the other. Take a guess who it is.

could say the same thing regarding trout and virtually any other major leaguer. might even remove the word "virtually" from the preceding sentence.

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#52 rv78

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 03:12 PM

If Gibson's health is his problem then he should not pitch in another game the rest of this year, starting or in relief. His last 7 starts, not counting the start against the Royals which would only make these stats worse, over 32 innings, 48 hits, 15 walks, 27 runs, a 1.97 WHIP, and his ERA is 7.59.

 

I realize he wants to help the Twins and be part of the success but he is only hurting the team at this point. It's WAAAY past time for the Manager to step forward and give the ball to someone else.

Edited by rv78, 20 September 2019 - 03:13 PM.

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#53 IndianaTwin

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 03:34 PM

 

I admire Kyle Gibson as a man and as a professional athlete. I wish him nothing but the best, as I'm sure all of us at TD wish for him. 

 

I agree with you on the first sentence and a half, but unfortunately I'm not so sure about your last 11 words.

 

I've been struck that over the last few weeks there have been a lot more comments on TD that have come across to me as mean-spirited. Perhaps it's because the stakes have increased with their place in the standings and the potential for a playoff spot, but it feels like there are fewer "Gibson (or Perez, or Baldelli, or Schoop, or whoever) is struggling tonight" comments and more "Gibson (or Perez, or Baldelli...) sucks/is scum/should never be heard from again" comments. That's why the tone of some of the comments leaves me unconvinced that all of us actually do hope for the best for him. I'm not calling out anyone in particular on this thread, because that spirit has felt pervasive on a lot of threads. 

 

But I'm with you tarheeltwinsfan. I too wish him the very best.

 

The fact is that when we make these pronouncements, none of us have access to any of the medical reports or to the conversations he's had or hasn't had with management, including in the future. I liken it to last year's TD comments about Joe Mauer, which also often took a mean-spirited turn. As the season was coming to an end and there was speculation on what would happen, the main feeling that kept coming back to me was empathy for what he was going through, and even sympathy for him for having to go through it on such a public front. The vast majority of us have never had to deal with that kind of public challenge.

 

We couldn't have any idea how the concussions were affecting him, but I always hoped that Mauer would be able to make the decision for what was right on his own terms. And if he chose to play, that he and the Twins would have been able to have an open and honest discussion on the role he might play on the team going forward. And selfishly, if he still had the health and drive to play, that he'd be able to do that as a Twin. But if not, I'll get over it.

 

Gibson has had nowhere the same effect on the franchise as Mauer did, but he still has carried himself with class and dignity. My first hope for him is also that he'll be able to make decisions on his own terms, both now and in the future. If that includes him shutting himself down, so be it. If not, I hope that the Twins are able to have open and honest conversations with him about his role going forward the rest of the season. I hope they are doing everything they can to get him back to health. And if the answer is, "Kyle, your health situation is different from someone having a broken leg, but we've come to the decision that your injury needs to keep you off the active roster for the playoffs," then so be it. 

 

And similarly in the off season. On the surface, it seems hard to imagine that they'll be able to get him back to good enough health to offer him a qualifying offer. That seems a foregone conclusion given the timing.

 

However, as I've said in an earlier thread, I would love it if the message to him is, "Kyle, when you're on, you can legitimately help us as a No. 3/4/5 starter. We can't give you a QO given your health status, but we want to give you the opportunity to make QO money. Demonstrate to us and our doctors that you are ready to start the season, and we'll guarantee the $8.125 MM we gave you in 2019. And here's the incentive plan (based on innings) that can get you to the $18MM you would have gotten with a QO. If you can give us 175 innings at the level you pitched from mid-2017 to mid-2019, combined with the leadership you provide to our young pitchers, you'll be worth it. And we believe in you." 

 

Descending from soap box...

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#54 jimbo92107

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 04:55 PM

The "yuck factor" for this is high, but I wonder if Gibson's doctors have considered a fecal transplant.

 

https://www.webmd.co...inful-colitis#1

 

This treatment has produced semi-miraculous results in some people for whom drug therapies have been ineffectual. By simply adjusting the gut flora/fauna in this way, people have been cured of several auto-immune diseases, and diseases that are resistant to penicillin related drugs. 

 

Kyle Gibson should stop pitching, right now. His health is degrading before our eyes, and I don't want to see him literally collapse on the mound. Get well first, Kyle Gibson. We don't need a championship badly enough to cost your health. 

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The door opened. A woman screamed. Someday, my mom would learn to knock.

#55 IndianaTwin

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 05:15 PM

The "yuck factor" for this is high, but I wonder if Gibson's doctors have considered a fecal transplant.

https://www.webmd.co...inful-colitis#1

This treatment has produced semi-miraculous results in some people for whom drug therapies have been ineffectual. By simply adjusting the gut flora/fauna in this way, people have been cured of several auto-immune diseases, and diseases that are resistant to penicillin related drugs.

Kyle Gibson should stop pitching, right now. His health is degrading before our eyes, and I don't want to see him literally collapse on the mound. Get well first, Kyle Gibson. We don't need a championship badly enough to cost your health.


The junior high boy in me wanted to click “like.” So I did.

And when I shared the article with my son, he told me that after he got C.Diff. last spring after an international study class and antibiotics were not doing the job, the doctor was very close to recommending that either my wife, other son, or me provide a sample for such a transplant. Apparently the procedure is not uncommon at all.

Wow, the things one learns when reading TD.
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#56 jimbo92107

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 05:22 PM

 

The junior high boy in me wanted to click “like.” So I did.

And when I shared the article with my son, he told me that after he got C.Diff. last spring after an international study class and antibiotics were not doing the job, the doctor was very close to recommending that either my wife, other son, or me provide a sample for such a transplant. Apparently the procedure is not uncommon at all.

Wow, the things one learns when reading TD.

We do not exist as discrete creatures. We are managers of an enormous zoo of animals and plants that compose our guts and the rest of our bodies. When the zoo gets thrown out of balance (by for instance the over-use of antibiotics, or antibiotics in our food), then all manner of things can and do go wrong. 

 

A fecal transplant can actually cure certain diseases. Ulcerative colitis is one of several targets. Others include Crone's disease, C. Diff, and some claim it has reduced symptoms of asthma. 

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The door opened. A woman screamed. Someday, my mom would learn to knock.

#57 Twins1964

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 10:25 PM

Gibby is his own worst enemy. No reason to feel sorry for him for his Twins tenure. He is obstinate and apparently difficult for pitching coaches. His getting sick on a humanitarian mission was very unfortunate. Everything else Gibby has done to himself. His free agency at year end will not end well for him. Tigers don’t change their stripes !!

#58 Twins1964

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 10:40 PM

Gibson is his own worst enemy. Based on his pitching record, he is neither under appreciated nor hard luck. He is obstinate and apparently has rejected several Twins pitching coaches attempts to get him to pound the zone. He seems like a good guy and was very unfortunate to get sick on a goodwill mission. But his free agency this year will result in huge discounts from what he could and should have been able to sign for because of his obstinacy.

#59 jokin

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 09:25 AM

 

I have defended him over the years. He's a little like the 2nd version of Liriano. He's not as good as people were hoping for so many write him off as bad....

 

In the "disappointed in the career results" category, YES to Liriano comp.

 

But in the "compelling, must see" category, a big NO. Scott Baker, or even more, like Jason Vargas, in the "provider of baseball entertainment" category.

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#60 jkcarew

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 10:54 AM

I don’t feel sorry for Gibson, because he’s already had a successful career...yes, even given his draft status. Go look at some of the other names in the back half of that draft...or read Birdwatchers post above. Precious few seem to get that. If the fans constantly obsess on why Gibson isn’t/wasn’t better...that’s what fans do...but it doesn’t mean that what he did accomplish didn’t happen. The thing I like about Gibson the most is that he DOES get it.
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