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#21 Badsmerf

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:29 AM

Much better model. I would argue that they win in large part because their manager is the best in the game. I am not a fan of the Cards one bit, but respect how they've been able to repeat success with a moderate payroll (110 m). They play all-round good baseball and make good moves.

I believe the Twins need to take something from how many teams have turned it around. TB and the O's have done some good things, TEX has become a force, SF is in the mix now. Mostly, and the biggest gripe I and many others have with this organization, is the philosophy about starting pitchers. The teams that win now either draft or sign strike out pitchers and let them throw 120 pitches to be the deciding factor in a game. The Twins don't. They don't draft high upside pitchers (sans Berrios). They certainly don't sign high upside pitchers. So until they do, it will difficult for this team to win. They had their best chance when Santana and Liriano were in the rotation in 2006 until Liriano got hurt. Unfortunately, its easier said than done. I don't think the Twins try NOT to get these type of players, I feel the can't due to their talent evaluators being inadequate. Perhaps that is changing, but I want to see more than just signing Berrios to believe it.


---Not sure about the manager thing, they didn't miss a beat after La Russa hung it up, but pitching? Definitely. Starting pitching in baseball is like goaltending in hockey. You need it to win. If yours is really good, you can win despite flaws in other areas. If yours is really bad, forget it, you're done, it's nearly impossible to compensate for it with strengths in other areas.


I meant winning the last few decades, not simply at the present time. The system is built already and carrying it on will be the task of the new guy.
Do or do not. There is no try.

#22 Boom Boom

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:27 AM



Really?

Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.


From '05-'10, only one player whose primary position is catcher played in more games than Mauer and none had more plate appearances. His games played per season from '05-12 are in line with most players whose primary position is catcher with the exception of two seasons. I believe his injury history is a bit over-exaggerated, especially when you consider he'd likely have a lot more games played if Gardy didn't feel the need to play his substitute players so much. Situations like Sub-Sundays, day after night games, and the last game of a 3 game series where we already won the first 2 games. This year, Mauer played quite a bit 1B, but that happened for a few reasons. 1: Doctors said if Morneau played both sides too much it could cause concussion symptoms to show up. 2. Mauer was the best option to fill in for Morneau. 3. With Doumit on the roster, it gave them a good option for replacement and then later, with Butera, he need his playing time too.

I have no doubt Mauer could have played more catcher not only this season, but other seasons as well, but this year, with having three catchers and Morneau who needed rest, made sense to play Mauer at 1B more.


I don't disagree with you, and I wasn't trying to make the tired old argument about Mauer being overpaid. I just think that Prince Fielder's contract provides somewhat better value to the Tigers than Mauer's contract provides to the Twins.

#23 ThePuck

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:00 PM

I don't disagree with you, and I wasn't trying to make the tired old argument about Mauer being overpaid. I just think that Prince Fielder's contract provides somewhat better value to the Tigers than Mauer's contract provides to the Twins.


If position isn't taken into account, or defensive ability, maybe. But comparing offensive output from a player who is primarily a catcher (or has been and likely will be again) to offensive output from a 1B straight across the board is something I try not to do (and Fielder plays a poor 1B too).

For me, it's similar to the MVP debate this year. The two top candidates are a leadoff hitting CF and #3 hitting corner IF (in this case a 1B playing 3B...badly). If we don't dive too far into advanced metrics, we see [FONT=&]Cabrera was #1 in BA, Trout #2. Trout #3 in OBP, Cabrera #4. Cabrera #1 in SLG%, Trout #3. Cabrera #1 in OPS, Trout #2. Trout #1 in OPS+, Cabrera #2. Pretty darn close there, no? Really close to each other in every one of those categories...Trout getting him in OBP and OPS+, Cabrera getting him in BA, SLG% and OPS. [/FONT] But again, one is a leadoff hitting CF and one is a corner IF. If we take into account position, isn't the CF more valuable? Then there is the base running and defense comparisons and Trout kills him in those as well.

As far as the Mauer, Fielder debate, there are other factors. How much revenue does having the hometown boy done good bring into the team in tickets sales, concession sales from people who attend games, merchandise, etc. Especially in a place like Minny whose people REALLY take pride in home state players. How much does that need to be taken into account?

Edited by ThePuck, 19 October 2012 - 12:03 PM.


#24 Boom Boom

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:23 PM


I don't disagree with you, and I wasn't trying to make the tired old argument about Mauer being overpaid. I just think that Prince Fielder's contract provides somewhat better value to the Tigers than Mauer's contract provides to the Twins.


If position isn't taken into account, or defensive ability, maybe. But comparing offensive output from a player who is primarily a catcher (or has been and likely will be again) to offensive output from a 1B straight across the board is something I try not to do (and Fielder plays a poor 1B too).

For me, it's similar to the MVP debate this year. The two top candidates are a leadoff hitting CF and #3 hitting corner IF (in this case a 1B playing 3B...badly). If we don't dive too far into advanced metrics, we see [FONT=&]Cabrera was #1 in BA, Trout #2. Trout #3 in OBP, Cabrera #4. Cabrera #1 in SLG%, Trout #3. Cabrera #1 in OPS, Trout #2. Trout #1 in OPS+, Cabrera #2. Pretty darn close there, no? Really close to each other in every one of those categories...Trout getting him in OBP and OPS+, Cabrera getting him in BA, SLG% and OPS. [/FONT]But again, one is a leadoff hitting CF and one is a corner IF. If we take into account position, isn't the CF more valuable? Then there is the base running and defense comparisons and Trout kills him in those as well.

As far as the Mauer, Fielder debate, there are other factors. How much revenue does having the hometown boy done good bring into the team in tickets sales, concession sales from people who attend games, merchandise, etc. Especially in a place like Minny whose people REALLY take pride in home state players. How much does that need to be taken into account?


As I said before, Mauer is now a 1/2 time catcher. The other part of that is the fact that the Twins are required to carry a lesser catcher on the roster to back up Mauer who doesn't play full time there.

In Fielder's career, the fewest games he's played in a full season is 157. That's 10 more than Mauer has played in his healthiest season (which just happened, and Mauer's caught only 74 of those games). The Tigers don't need a backup 1B because Fielder is always healthy.

As for the hometown boy thing, jersey sales, what have you, that's all guesswork. I'm sure Fielder sells a lot of jerseys too, and I bet there was a buzz around Tiger Stadium to go see Fielder play at least at the beginning of the year.

#25 Winston Smith

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:34 PM

"For me, it's similar to the MVP debate this year.........." the debate is over the Most Valuable Player award not the best all around player award. You take Cabrera out of the Tigers lineup and they are dead in the water. Take Trout out of the Angels lineup and they are still not in the playoffs.

The fact remains that over the years the winner isn't always the best player or the most valuable because there is no set of criteria for the vote. Some years it's more about which way the wind is blowing the last couple weeks of the season.

Imo, Cabrera is no doubt the most valuable, is he the best all around player probably not.

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#26 ThePuck

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:34 PM

As I said before, Mauer is now a 1/2 time catcher. The other part of that is the fact that the Twins are required to carry a lesser catcher on the roster to back up Mauer who doesn't play full time there.

In Fielder's career, the fewest games he's played in a full season is 157. That's 10 more than Mauer has played in his healthiest season (which just happened, and Mauer's caught only 74 of those games). The Tigers don't need a backup 1B because Fielder is always healthy.

As for the hometown boy thing, jersey sales, what have you, that's all guesswork. I'm sure Fielder sells a lot of jerseys too, and I bet there was a buzz around Tiger Stadium to go see Fielder play at least at the beginning of the year.


I get that, but catchers don't play 157 games a year anyway. By the nature of the position, they just don't play that many games. This year the most games started at catcher was 136. Last year, it was 131. Every team needs another catcher, not just us. Not only that, but above I showed why he played so little at catcher this year. On top of that, you seem to be saying that the only time Mauer hasn't been in the lineup is when he's been hurt. That's not the case. As a catcher, Gardy just rested him as other managers do with their catchers.

#27 Boom Boom

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:49 PM


As I said before, Mauer is now a 1/2 time catcher. The other part of that is the fact that the Twins are required to carry a lesser catcher on the roster to back up Mauer who doesn't play full time there.

In Fielder's career, the fewest games he's played in a full season is 157. That's 10 more than Mauer has played in his healthiest season (which just happened, and Mauer's caught only 74 of those games). The Tigers don't need a backup 1B because Fielder is always healthy.

As for the hometown boy thing, jersey sales, what have you, that's all guesswork. I'm sure Fielder sells a lot of jerseys too, and I bet there was a buzz around Tiger Stadium to go see Fielder play at least at the beginning of the year.


I get that, but catchers don't play 157 games a year anyway. By the nature of the position, they just don't play that many games. This year the most games started at catcher was 136. Last year, it was 131. Every team needs another catcher, not just us. Not only that, but above I showed why he played so little at catcher this year. On top of that, you seem to be saying that the only time Mauer hasn't been in the lineup is when he's been hurt. That's not the case. As a catcher, Gardy just rested him as other managers do with their catchers.


#1 - how many teams need three catchers?

#2 - I know it's a fact of the position that catchers get time off, but that only proves my point that Fielder has more offensive value. He's in the lineup more.

#28 ThePuck

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:59 PM

'#1 - how many teams need three catchers?

#2 - I know it's a fact of the position that catchers get time off, but that only proves my point that Fielder has more offensive value. He's in the lineup more. '

response to #1: We only needed three catchers cause Gardy love Butera and is scared to have Doumit and Mauer playing at the same time. That's a Gardy thing. We didn't really need three catchers until Gardy decided to play Doumit in the OF or DH while Mauer was at 1B. That's a Gardy juggling lineup thing. Doumit should only be playing catcher or DH...he should be nowhere near the OF...and he should only DH when Mauer is catching.

response to #2: Were we just talking offensive value or overall value? One could argue a catcher is more valuable, even if he plays in 20-30 games less, because he's involved in every pitch. And then there's the time used for game plan with the pitcher.

In any event, I'm not sure there's any more to throw out there. You may be right, I don't know, but it's interesting enough to think about and not, IMO, cut and dry. There's a lot of factors involved in value and what affects it.

I enjoyed the debate, thanks

Edited by ThePuck, 19 October 2012 - 01:01 PM.


#29 Boom Boom

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:03 PM

'#1 - how many teams need three catchers?

#2 - I know it's a fact of the position that catchers get time off, but that only proves my point that Fielder has more offensive value. He's in the lineup more. '

response to #1: We only needed three catchers cause Gardy love Butera and is scared to have Doumit and Mauer playing at the same time. That's a Gardy thing. We didn't really need three catchers until Gardy decided to play Doumit in the OF or DH while Mauer was at 1B. That's a Gardy juggling lineup thing. Doumit should only be playing catcher or DH...he should be nowhere near the OF...and he should only DH when Mauer is catching.

response to #2: Were we just talking offensive value or overall value? One could argue a catcher is more valuable, even if he plays in 20-30 games less, because he's involved in every pitch. And then there's the time used for game plan with the pitcher.

In any event, I'm not sure there's any more to throw out there. You may be right, I don't know, but it's interesting enough to think about and not, IMO, cut and dry. There's a lot of factors involved in value and what affects it.

I enjoyed the debate, thanks



Natch! Good show friend.

#30 ThePuck

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:06 PM

I don't know what Natch means, but thanks. You as well :-)

#31 70charger

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:34 PM

For all the talk about Mauer's contract, I'd rather be stuck with that than Fielder's.


Really?

Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.


It's nice that he's never been hurt, but he's already a cheeseburger away from 400 pounds and with a long-term deal to boot. This will not end well for the Tigers.

Joe will age gracefully, getting on base with sweet swinging singles until he's 40 years old. Prince will catch gout.

#32 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:53 PM

From '05-'10, only one player whose primary position is catcher played in more games than Mauer and none had more plate appearances. His games played per season from '05-12 are in line with most players whose primary position is catcher with the exception of two seasons. I believe his injury history is a bit over-exaggerated, especially when you consider he'd likely have a lot more games played if Gardy didn't feel the need to play his substitute players so much. Situations like Sub-Sundays, day after night games, and the last game of a 3 game series where we already won the first 2 games. This year, Mauer played quite a bit 1B, but that happened for a few reasons. 1: Doctors said if Morneau played both sides too much it could cause concussion symptoms to show up. 2. Mauer was the best option to fill in for Morneau. 3. With Doumit on the roster, it gave them a good option for replacement and then later, with Butera, he need his playing time too.

I have no doubt Mauer could have played more catcher not only this season, but other seasons as well, but this year, with having three catchers and Morneau who needed rest, made sense to play Mauer at 1B more.


This post is...less than accurate. At best.

"Mauer catches almost as much as anyone...except for the seasons in which he didn't."

"Mauer could catch more...except for Gardy."

"Doctors said Morneau couldn't play offense and defense."

"Mauer could catch more, even this season, except he didn't."

Seriously...anything to back up any of that?

#33 ThePuck

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:33 PM

what are you talking about?

Answer for Quote 1: I actually didn't say Mauer catches almost as much as anyone. I said when looking at his games played from '05-'12, Mauer's games played is in line with most players whose primary position is catcher. I didn't say he was playing catcher all those games. And that quote had to do with talking about the idea he's so injury plagued.

In any event, look at the amount of games catchers in each season from '05 to '12. Go to ESPN and look at games played for catchers. The most played this year was 135. 131 last year was the most. Do you see a pattern or do you believe all the catchers across baseball are getting hurt for that many games all the time and that's why they aren't in the lineup? They aren't? Hmm, then way aren't they playing 162? Cause catchers get rested by their managers to help protect them from the rigors of the position. Gardy is no different. Doesn't mean they actually need it or are hurt.

Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around. Have you not seen that over the last several years?

Answer for Quote 3: The Doctors came out and said that the physical exertion of playing both side could bring back symptoms. It was discussed at length. Did you not read it. Here's a taste for an article entitled, 'Morneau: Being DH is protection from concussion symptoms':

'Twins slugger Justin Morneau said he might be used more at designated hitter and less at first base to decrease the chance of a re-occurrence of the concussion problems that prematurely ended his past two seasons.

"Not to get into the medical stuff too much, but [the doctors] said before that if my body gets worn down too much, I'm more vulnerable to having the symptoms reoccur," Morneau said Monday, after he hit a double off the center field wall in a 10-4 spring training loss to the Tampa Bay Rays.

"The chance of going backwards is when I get worn down. I can have the fogginess and the headaches, and all that stuff can return, if my system gets too worn down. Then I'm in a vulnerable position."

Do you need more?

And answer for quote #4...who filled in for Morneau when the team felt he need it? Mauer quite a bit. Was is because Mauer couldn't play catcher, since he was healthy this year, or because he was the best option to go to 1B based on the roster most of the year? Who plugged Doumit in at catcher instead of Mauer while Mauer was healthy and playing 1B? Gardy.

I suppose I could have given the short answer...which is I pay attention...these things are obvious if one pays attention.

Edited by ThePuck, 19 October 2012 - 10:04 PM.


#34 johnnydakota

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:06 PM

the reply botton is back

#35 ThePuck

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:11 PM

the reply botton is back


excellent!

#36 johnnydakota

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:17 PM



From '05-'10, only one player whose primary position is catcher played in more games than Mauer and none had more plate appearances. His games played per season from '05-12 are in line with most players whose primary position is catcher with the exception of two seasons. I believe his injury history is a bit over-exaggerated, especially when you consider he'd likely have a lot more games played if Gardy didn't feel the need to play his substitute players so much. Situations like Sub-Sundays, day after night games, and the last game of a 3 game series where we already won the first 2 games. This year, Mauer played quite a bit 1B, but that happened for a few reasons. 1: Doctors said if Morneau played both sides too much it could cause concussion symptoms to show up. 2. Mauer was the best option to fill in for Morneau. 3. With Doumit on the roster, it gave them a good option for replacement and then later, with Butera, he need his playing time too.

I have no doubt Mauer could have played more catcher not only this season, but other seasons as well, but this year, with having three catchers and Morneau who needed rest, made sense to play Mauer at 1B more.


This post is...less than accurate. At best.

"Mauer catches almost as much as anyone...except for the seasons in which he didn't."

"Mauer could catch more...except for Gardy."

"Doctors said Morneau couldn't play offense and defense."

"Mauer could catch more, even this season, except he didn't."

Seriously...anything to back up any of that?


so i gotta ask you a dude or a lady?

#37 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:11 AM

so i gotta ask you a dude or a lady?


Yes.

#38 Riverbrian

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 07:47 AM

Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around.


Honestly, I've always felt that Gardy doesn't play backups enough. It was painful to watch Parmelee rot on the bench. Casilla could have played more in my opinion(It's ok Chief... Just a little more).

I thnk Hughes and Burroughs were thrown away(maybe they should have been) with no playing time to prove themselves while Danny V. Meekly played 3B every day.

I don't want the same lineup everyday. Even star players slump. Even .220 hitters get hot. You miss out on Descalso while you wait for Granderson to turn it around.

Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all.

if Revere is going through a tough stretch. It's Ok to play Mastro for a while. Competition is created in such ways.

Its an eye of the beholder thing. I honestly feel that Gardy needs to use his bench more and in different ways but still think he's a good manager overall.

Edited by Riverbrian, 20 October 2012 - 07:50 AM.


#39 Riverbrian

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:08 AM

On the topic of the Tigers as a blueprint.

If you mean aggressively go for it. Yeah... Good blueprint.

If you mean... Overload on Power and don't worry about defense. Bad blueprint.

This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.

The talented Rangers, Angels, Dodgers and Red Sox never got in. They didn't achieve step one. Meanwhile the WS is about to be contested between an AL team with the worst record of all AL playoff participants winning a WEAK division led by Delmon "I don't care about baseball" Young and a Wildcard team that found a way to get the last spot in the door and is being led by the .220 hitting Descalso.

Quick clarification. I'm not diminishing the accomplishments of the Tigers winning the weaker AL Central. I'm saying... Get into the playoffs. That's your goal. Once there... Anything can happen. Nothing happens if you don't get there.

Edited by Riverbrian, 20 October 2012 - 10:12 AM.


#40 Riverbrian

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:18 AM

so i gotta ask you a dude or a lady?


Yes.


That something about you Chief that I appreciate... Ask a question and you get an answer. ROTFLMAO!!!