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"Resting" players

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#21 USAFChief

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:09 AM

 

Imagine how many injuries/aches they would have if not given rest... no way to know for sure on any of it, but I will take the results of this season as encouraging!

How many times does Francona willingly keep Lindor out of the lineup? 

 

 

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#22 blindeke

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:10 AM

 

I truly did not understand the LaMarre AB. As I don't dwell on every word the talking heads spew forth, maybe I missed a reason someone like Sano could not have hit? If the only reason was to "rest" Sano, then I think Rocco needs to reevaluate that process. One should remeber that Sano has had a considerable amount of rest already this season.

 

Per the Strib today, Sano had some back problems and they were not going to use him.

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#23 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:14 AM

I think this is the kind of thing we need more than one season to evaluate and even then we likely won't know if it helps (but the Twins might).

 

Resting players doesn't make injuries disappear. But if it reduces the chance of injury by, say 10%, then it's a significant step in the right direction.

 

We wouldn't even notice a 10% drop in injuries but after a few years, the Twins may be able to quantify the difference.

 

I think just writing off the idea as "well, people still get injured" misses the point of the exercise. And I'm not even saying rest is actually working - though I suspect it is on some level - only that we have no idea if it's working.

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#24 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:16 AM

 

Unnecessarily resting your best players is stupid.

Sure it is. 

 

The problem with this statement is that we have no idea if it's "unnecessary". This isn't only a binary situation of "injured/healthy", it's more complex and nuanced than that and, as casual spectators without a mountain of data in front of us, we cannot say whether rest is helping, hurting, or neutral.

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#25 rdehring

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:48 AM

 

I truly did not understand the LaMarre AB. As I don't dwell on every word the talking heads spew forth, maybe I missed a reason someone like Sano could not have hit? If the only reason was to "rest" Sano, then I think Rocco needs to reevaluate that process. One should remeber that Sano has had a considerable amount of rest already this season.

Sano is dealing with a back injury and wasn't available.

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#26 Dantes929

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:52 AM

 

Sure it is. 

 

The problem with this statement is that we have no idea if it's "unnecessary". This isn't only a binary situation of "injured/healthy", it's more complex and nuanced than that and, as casual spectators without a mountain of data in front of us, we cannot say whether rest is helping, hurting, or neutral.

Exactly.It can be about mental and physical fatigue without actually resulting in injury. I am convinced Morneau would have another MVP and the Twins would not have needed game 163 against Chicago if Morneau hadn't played 163 games along with the all star game and home run derby.I can't prove anything definitively but his Sept OPS of .696 was the only month under .815 the whole year. To me he looked fatigued.If you look at his career his last two months drop significantly.Mauer's last two months career totals remain strong and in the three closest races in baseball history he last two months were fantastic. Morneau always played, Mauer got a lot of rest.Doesn't prove anything of course but I don;t see anything in this season proving rest doesn't help. Lindor is 25 years old and hasn't played the full season due to injury.. Different than late 20's and different than weighing what Sano weighs.Again, who are our guys playing too much and who are the ones not playing enough?

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#27 MN_ExPat

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 10:06 AM

How many times does Francona willingly keep Lindor out of the lineup?

Different situation though. Without Lindor, Cleveland is probably sunk. Without Cruz, the Twins might only hit one HR instead of 2 or 3 in a game.

#28 MN_ExPat

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 10:12 AM

This is just as frustrating as when the Twins would automatically sit Mauer out after playing a night game when they followed that up with a day game.

Unless a guy is injured or hurting to the point of further risking injury, you don't sit them. Especially your better players. It makes no sense to limit yourself purposely for the sake of giving a guy a "rest day." GTFO with that millennial nonsense.

I understand the frustration, I want to see the best guys out there every game as well. However, players need days off as much for the mental refresher as the physical.

Edited by MN_ExPat, 09 September 2019 - 10:13 AM.

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#29 Shaitan

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 10:19 AM

And what's the deal with batting helmets and shin guards?

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#30 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 10:19 AM

 

Exactly.It can be about mental and physical fatigue without actually resulting in injury. I am convinced Morneau would have another MVP and the Twins would not have needed game 163 against Chicago if Morneau hadn't played 163 games along with the all star game and home run derby.I can't prove anything definitively but his Sept OPS of .696 was the only month under .815 the whole year. To me he looked fatigued.If you look at his career his last two months drop significantly.Mauer's last two months career totals remain strong and in the three closest races in baseball history he last two months were fantastic. Morneau always played, Mauer got a lot of rest.Doesn't prove anything of course but I don;t see anything in this season proving rest doesn't help. Lindor is 25 years old and hasn't played the full season due to injury.. Different than late 20's and different than weighing what Sano weighs.Again, who are our guys playing too much and who are the ones not playing enough?

Morneau even admitted to this during a broadcast early in the season. He said he wished this kind of rest-focused program was in place during his playing years because he wore himself down and underperformed the second half of most seasons.

 

And, looking at the data, Justin isn't just feeding us a line. His career second half OPS is .075 lower than his first half OPS.

 

And yikes, it gets worse the more you drill down. Here are his OPS numbers by month: .849, .912, .800, .881, .777, .752.

 

Morneau was an average player when the Twins needed him most.

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#31 Kelly Vance

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 10:20 AM

 

Next year, I hope Rocco (and the front office) recognizes the futility of "resting" players during the regular season.

Rocco has given players way too much scheduled time off, to what benefit? All you do is willingly hold your better players out of too many games.

It does little to nothing in terms of keeping them healthy, or "rested."

All it does is intentionally reduce the number of games played by your best lineup.

I don't understand how bystanders and spectators can look at a team that has been surprisingly strong all season, setting offensive records and mashing homers at a record clip and conclude that the manager is making a bad decision in resting players sometimes. The results show good management. In fact, one could say that the Twins have never had this kind of offensive production before. I give Rocco a lot of credit for this. 

 

You need a good bench over the course of a 162 game season. Bench players need to get played if they are going to be sharp enough to help off the bench. Not resting starters guarantees that they will wear down over the 162 game season and that reserves will be stale when called upon.

 

Rocco is right and his managing of his players is not the reason for the recent spate of injuries. I suspect had Rocco not been pro active in resting guys things would be a lot worse than theyare. 

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#32 rileyroy

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 10:32 AM

I have been second guessing Rocco all season, then I look at the standings and shut up.
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#33 ashbury

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 11:04 AM

At a keynote speech I attended, Terry Ryan once stated that he could think of many ballplayers who would hit .400, if MLB was played one game per week.

 

I took that to mean not only that the 162-game season is a grind, but some players are ground down worse than others. He wasn't saying everyone would hit .400, because conversely the pitchers would be better rested too. The grind is what levels down the competition, in other words.

 

(He wouldn't name names, of course, but I distinctly remember thinking the implication included Delmon.)

 

So I'm unwilling to second guess the manager too much on the choice of whom to rest, and when. There's a very good chance you could wring a little bit better performance out of a team with less rest, but also an increased chance of decreased performance, and there's no way to forecast which is which.

 

Also, apart from judgement, or analytics, the manager has access to info concerning the physical state of the players, that I never will.

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#34 raindog

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 11:35 AM

I think people underestimate the toll of playing 6 games a week for 6 months. The human body is going to get worn down, and it's going to effect performance. I don't understand how anyone could be critical of players getting more rest than what they've traditionally gotten. Especially with the depth the Twins had most of the season. 

 

It's not going to prevent injuries. It will keep players fresh and improve performance. 

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#35 spycake

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 11:56 AM

 

Morneau even admitted to this during a broadcast early in the season. He said he wished this kind of rest-focused program was in place during his playing years because he wore himself down and underperformed the second half of most seasons.

 

And, looking at the data, Justin isn't just feeding us a line. His career second half OPS is .075 lower than his first half OPS.

 

And yikes, it gets worse the more you drill down. Here are his OPS numbers by month: .849, .912, .800, .881, .777, .752.

 

Morneau was an average player when the Twins needed him most.

You and Morneau might be right, but I'm not sure the data is too meaningful.

 

Morneau's best season -- 2010 -- he didn't play in August or September. 2009, he had a specific back injury that he tried to play through in August and September, etc. I wonder how much those events can skew things?

 

And what's a normal variation in career half-season splits? Cuddyer is +.025 in the 2nd half for his career, Jacque Jones +.049. Kubel is -.036. Mauer and Hunter are pretty much even (less than .010 difference). From Morneau's "similar batters" list at B-Ref, contemporary Prince Fielder is +.025, Adrian Gonzalez +.042, Adam LaRoche +.071, and Aubrey Huff +.069. Thome is -.028, Willingham -.046.

 

Of course, every player is different too.

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#36 Rosterman

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 12:26 PM

I used to get mad when the Twins would tally out the "B-squad" for a day game. Like, you don't want to give your pitcher a chance to win?

 

If you take the lead, especially now, or if the game is a total blowout, you can substitute guys.

 

But when going head-to-head with a best team (unless you don't care to lose - and some folly to that - often wonder why a team puts their best pitcher against the other team's best pitcher, why not worst against best) you field the best lineup posible. 

 

Until you clinch, now, you are playing PLAYOFF GAMES. Every game it important. If you don't win, you go home...and get plenty of rest.

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#37 yarnivek1972

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 12:42 PM

You and Morneau might be right, but I'm not sure the data is too meaningful.

Morneau's best season -- 2010 -- he didn't play in August or September. 2009, he had a specific back injury that he tried to play through in August and September, etc. I wonder how much those events can skew things?

And what's a normal variation in career half-season splits? Cuddyer is +.025 in the 2nd half for his career, Jacque Jones +.049. Kubel is -.036. Mauer and Hunter are pretty much even (less than .010 difference). From Morneau's "similar batters" list at B-Ref, contemporary Prince Fielder is +.025, Adrian Gonzalez +.042, Adam LaRoche +.071, and Aubrey Huff +.069. Thome is -.028, Willingham -.046.

Of course, every player is different too.


The big difference for Morneau is that his home games were being played on the rock hard Metrodome surface.

Other than catcher, I really don’t think most players should need to be rested more than once every ten games. There are already more off days built in to the schedule than there were even 15 years ago. The season is seven days longer, but they still play 162 games. There are 21 off days built in to the schedule, including the AS break. That’s more than 3 per month, or one every ten days. So, no, I wouldn’t think a world class athlete in his prime would need more than 1 day in 5 off. Maybe an older guy would.

#38 nicksaviking

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 12:49 PM

I'm all for resting the players to keep them fresh. But are the Twins really doing it much more than normal? Polanco is the only regular batter who has been healthy all year, and he's only missed 7 games. By contrast, last year Kepler was the team's only season long healthy starter and missed 6 games.

 

I'm thinking all of this discussion has only come up because Sano didn't pinch hit for LaMarre yesterday and we weren't privy to the news that his back was acting up and he wasn't available?

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#39 USAFChief

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 12:51 PM

 

 

I'm thinking all of this discussion has only come up because Sano didn't pinch hit for LaMarre yesterday and we weren't privy to the news that his back was acting up and he wasn't available?

No.

 

I started the thread because I don't see any benefit to "resting" players. Sano/LaMarre had nothing to do with it.

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#40 nicksaviking

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 12:55 PM

 

No.

 

I started the thread because I don't see any benefit to "resting" players. Sano/LaMarre had nothing to do with it.

 

Who has been resting more than expected? It seems to me we are even seeing fewer 'Get-away-day' Sunday lineups than we saw with Gardy and Molitor.

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