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Article: Tigers Garcia gives hope for Twins Arcia

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#1 Seth Stohs

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:39 AM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...for-Twins-Arcia

#2 beckmt

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:38 AM

Just one more reason I have been believing in having one of Hicks, Arcia start in Minnesota next year. It may help them to start in Rochester, but the Twins need to bring in pitching and I do not think that TR will be able to sign or afford more than one FA pitcher, so trading Span and Parmalee for some major league ready arms to a cost concious team (Tampa, Seattle, Oakland, Miami) will be the best way to go.

#3 Mr. Ed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:57 AM

Also one more reason Arcia/Hicks should have played in MN in September. Especially after Willingham got dinged.

Of course, the manager would still have preferred a month of his "starters" vs contenders instead. Had to have that big push to avoid 100 losses.

#4 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:50 AM

Also one more reason Arcia/Hicks should have played in MN in September. Especially after Willingham got dinged.

Of course, the manager would still have preferred a month of his "starters" vs contenders instead. Had to have that big push to avoid 100 losses.


Willingham played his last game on September 24th. Arcia hadn't played baseball for three weeks at that point and may have been at home when it happened. There was no reason to call him back for ~10 days of baseball.

#5 Winston Smith

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:12 AM

When do Hicks and Arcia have to be put on the 40 man?

#6 mike wants wins

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:15 AM

No way the Twins bring up AA or A players to the playoffs. This post will just generate all kind of posts about the Twins and their conservative style, deserved or not. They would rather sign and play awful relief pitchers than use their own minor leaguers, we saw that all last year.

#7 Mr. Ed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:11 AM

Also one more reason Arcia/Hicks should have played in MN in September. Especially after Willingham got dinged.

Of course, the manager would still have preferred a month of his "starters" vs contenders instead. Had to have that big push to avoid 100 losses.


Willingham played his last game on September 24th. Arcia hadn't played baseball for three weeks at that point and may have been at home when it happened. There was no reason to call him back for ~10 days of baseball.


Right. However, I really believe that both of them should have gotten some action in, as soon as AA was over.
Given the alleged "surplus" the Twins have, need to know what players they can trade off sooner rather than later.

#8 Mr. Ed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:11 AM

When do Hicks and Arcia have to be put on the 40 man?


Arcia is already on the 40 man.

#9 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:23 AM

Right. However, I really believe that both of them should have gotten some action in, as soon as AA was over.
Given the alleged "surplus" the Twins have, need to know what players they can trade off sooner rather than later.


I would have liked to see Arcia and Hicks as well but I won't complain too much that they didn't get ~25 ABs apiece in September. There is plenty of time for them to show their talents in ST and the minors early next year. Not a lot was to be gained by bringing them into a crowded outfield situation while the downside is that a crowded outfield situation would have cramped Parmelee's playing time even more. Considering that Parmelee is at the point where more time in the minors will do him little good, I preferred seeing him over Hicks or Arcia. The Twins have plenty of time to gauge what they have in Hicks/Arcia while Parmelee needs playing time right now to see if he's a Major League player.

#10 clutterheart

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:25 AM

Great article. Arcia's stats are far superior to Garcia with more power. The future is verybright for Arcia
BTW can we please stop the notion that he can come up and be handed a starting job before we even get to spring? We have no idea how he will fare against MLB pitching.


No need to rush him

#11 Winston Smith

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:09 AM

If Arcia is on the 40 man why was Carson playing in Sept and not Arcia? Carson is a 30 yr old and not our future. Even if only 20 ab's (Carson had 45 in Sept/Oct) he gets the taste of great food, good travel and nice hotels would give him a little boost going into the winter to really "get after it" next year.
45 wasted ab's on a career minor league player that has no long term future with the team just doesn't make any sense, imo.
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#12 Mr. Ed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:02 AM

If Arcia is on the 40 man why was Carson playing in Sept and not Arcia? Carson is a 30 yr old and not our future. Even if only 20 ab's (Carson had 45 in Sept/Oct) he gets the taste of great food, good travel and nice hotels would give him a little boost going into the winter to really "get after it" next year.
45 wasted ab's on a career minor league player that has no long term future with the team just doesn't make any sense, imo.


Agree completely. I don't mind Matt Carson, but is he really needed, beside to keep Rochester market happy?

No need to rush him. Eh, I'll disagree. Why so cautious? Find out what a guy can do this fall, rather than start the year with "he'll be in the minors because he has no experience".

Sano/Kepler/Rosario will probably still be in the minors in 4 years if they stay with the overly cautious plan.

It's ok to have a few guys younger than 25 play every day in the bigs. It's been done a time or two.
And yes, I know those 3 will be younger than 25 in 4 years. It's a sarcastic remark for an organization that needs new blood in the higher levels sooner rather than later.

#13 Seth Stohs

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:03 AM

The article should tell Twins fans that the mild success of Avisail Garcia should give them hope for what Arcia and Hicks could be. By prospect rankings, Hicks and Arcia rank higher than Garcia. The situations. There was no reason for the Twins to bring up Hicks or Arcia for September. None.

The Twins didn't need to evaluate Arcia or Hicks yet in September. They did need to see Parmelee and some of those infielders.

Arcia and Hicks are already playing in Venezuela. What they do there for 2-3 months will likely mean much more than those 25 at bats they might have seen in September. They'll likely both be Top 100 prospects, go to spring training, get sent down to the minors early in camp, go to Rochester, play there 2-3 months and HOPEFULLY show that they're ready.

#14 mike wants wins

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

And had they been promoted more aggressively, they could have been in AAA ball already, and we would not hear how they have no experience over AA and are not yet ready. I warned you the thread would develop into this topic.

#15 Mr. Ed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:27 AM

They'll likely both be Top 100 prospects, go to spring training, get sent down to the minors early in camp, go to Rochester, play there 2-3 months and HOPEFULLY show that they're ready.

Hope.
Hope.
Hope.

That should be the Twins Motto.

The Twins HOPE that things work out. If not, by golly, let's see what we can blame it on.
Injuries to __________(choose an area)
Guys without enough experience
Guys they HOPE would work out that didn't.

Bleh. They HOPE a lot of things come together each year. Why not have some sure things.

Oh, that's right, the old regime traded a number of those away. Why? Conflicts in personalities, needs in other areas, etc, etc.
Traded too much away.

Suffer now and get the kids ready. This team needs to clear a lot of driftwood away.

#16 twinscowboysbulls

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:34 AM

It would be very percolating to trade away Span, Willingham and Parmalee and let Arcia, Hicks and Revere roam the TF outfield.

Would be able to bring in some very valuable pitchers if the Twins were willing to deal those 3 players. At the end of the day, the Twins need to realize we can't win with our current pitchers and moves NEED to be made to improve this team's win/loss total. It would be nice if we could possible trade Span/Morneau for some pitching prospects and keep Parmalee at 1B and Willingham at LF/DH but I'm just not sure we will be able to get enough in return for just those 2.

#17 DAM DC Twins Fans

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:57 AM

Yes, Twins have few tradeable assets right now. Span/Revere as CF lead-off men and Parmalee. Morneau will bring little (big contract, concussion history, last year of contract).

So bring Rosario, Arcia, Hicks, and Sano to ML spring training, give them at-bats vs top pitching and see what they show. Send them to Rochester for seasoning unless they prove stars at training camp. Bring them up as they are ready--but give them time in show in 2013 to learn trade and maybe we can contend in 2014. Assuming Span or Revere is traded this winter--come July 2013 we will know whether to trade Willingham, Span or Revere, Plouffe, etc. to get some pitching here--assuming the 4 kids will play in 2014.

#18 Seth Stohs

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:05 AM

Mr Ed, would those 20-25 at bats given any more hope (or less) than them not playing? I mean, Parmelee was great last September. Benson was pretty solid in September. And they got 80 at bats...

I guess I just look at the Royals and say... was rushing prospects the right thing to do? Hosmer, Moustakus, Hochevar, Giovetella, Dyson, Cain, all those starting pitchers... is it worth rushing?

By the way, Wil Myers was the Minor league player of the year and split time between AA and AAA, and the Royals didn't call him up. Does that make him less of a prospect or hurt his future? Not at all. Oh, and don't forget that he spent all of 2011 in AA and started 2012 there too!! Yikes!!

#19 mlhouse

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:08 AM

The station by station approach that the Twins use hurts them in two ways:

1. It reduces the trade value of their minor league players. Not that the Twins would ever consider making a trade that would trade a high level minor league players, but several years ago when they had playoff level teams they could have looked to make a deal of minor league players for established veteran players. Because we hold our players back, we don't get much "age premium" in valuation. To see how this works, look at the Santana trade with the Mets. The minor league players we got from the Mets were vastly overrated, and the reason why was that players like Delois Guerra were pitching at levels 1-3 higher than they would have been in the Twins organization. "His stats aren't spectacular, but he is a 18 year old pitching in A+ ball"...................

2. The station by station approach shortens the development window of the players. IF a star minor league prospect gets to the major leagues at 24 years of age (lets say Chris Parmalee) their career windows are much shortened. IF they struggle at first (lets say Chris Parmalee) sending them down is a valid option, but that takes more time off the clock. Suddenly, the player is 26-27 years old with limited major league experience, and the clock has run out. If you get the player up when they are 21-22 years old they still have time to work the major league kinks out.

#20 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:11 AM

When do Hicks and Arcia have to be put on the 40 man?


Arcia is already on the 40 man.


Hicks has to before November 20th. Otherwise he's up for selection in the rule V draft.

#21 Mr. Ed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:17 AM

Mr Ed, would those 20-25 at bats given any more hope (or less) than them not playing? I mean, Parmelee was great last September. Benson was pretty solid in September. And they got 80 at bats...

I guess I just look at the Royals and say... was rushing prospects the right thing to do? Hosmer, Moustakus, Hochevar, Giovetella, Dyson, Cain, all those starting pitchers... is it worth rushing?

By the way, Wil Myers was the Minor league player of the year and split time between AA and AAA, and the Royals didn't call him up. Does that make him less of a prospect or hurt his future? Not at all. Oh, and don't forget that he spent all of 2011 in AA and started 2012 there too!! Yikes!!


We'll never know on the Twins' guys, unfortunately. Can't find out what kids have until you play them.

KC? They develop top flight talent about as well as the Twins, which is why they're neighbors in the lower levels of the division.

mlhouse makes some very good points. Twins, like anyone else,make good/bad decisions on moving players/assessing players.
They seem overly cautious, and for what? Let a guy fizzle out/get stagnant in AA/AAA, vs an opp in the bigs where hope springs eternal.

#22 mlhouse

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:29 AM

The other aspect that the Twins really need to look into is to find a short-season A team to work with. Most of our college level draft picks should be assigned to such a team, rather than Elizabethton. Sure, it is great that Elizabethton is always a "winning" team, but one reason for that is the Twins send more advanced players there.

WIth a short season A team, we can send the advanced prospects to a higher competitive level without upsetting the rosters of the full season A teams. From this level, the players can go three different routes: the advanced players to A+(or even AA), the average players to A, and the below average players to the various extended spring training leagues.

For the advanced prospects, this creates a short cut in development. A college prospect could be in A+ ball their first full professional season instead of A that the Twins will move them to.

I am not saying that the Twins have not had exceptions in moving through the minors. Jesse Crain and Scott Baker are two examples of what I think should be the standard for the Twins, and if you look at their minor league career you can picture how a short season A team would have naturally fit into their path.

#23 mike wants wins

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:46 AM

So keeping Meyers in the minors and being awful at the MLB level was a good idea? KC has no pitching, they keep old stiffs around for their grit and veteranniness. That is why they are bad, not because they promote players wrongly.

#24 Winston Smith

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:44 PM

"The Twins didn't need to evaluate Arcia or Hicks yet in September. They did need to see Parmelee and some of those infielders. "

What does Arcia getting those 45 ab's Carson had have to do with Parmalee or the infielders? Arcia is on the 40 man give him a taste of the big leagues it might make him work that much harder to get back. Wasting those ab's on Carson makes no sense.
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#25 Seth Stohs

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:28 PM

The station by station approach that the Twins use hurts them in two ways:

1. It reduces the trade value of their minor league players. Not that the Twins would ever consider making a trade that would trade a high level minor league players, but several years ago when they had playoff level teams they could have looked to make a deal of minor league players for established veteran players. Because we hold our players back, we don't get much "age premium" in valuation. To see how this works, look at the Santana trade with the Mets. The minor league players we got from the Mets were vastly overrated, and the reason why was that players like Delois Guerra were pitching at levels 1-3 higher than they would have been in the Twins organization. "His stats aren't spectacular, but he is a 18 year old pitching in A+ ball"...................

2. The station by station approach shortens the development window of the players. IF a star minor league prospect gets to the major leagues at 24 years of age (lets say Chris Parmalee) their career windows are much shortened. IF they struggle at first (lets say Chris Parmalee) sending them down is a valid option, but that takes more time off the clock. Suddenly, the player is 26-27 years old with limited major league experience, and the clock has run out. If you get the player up when they are 21-22 years old they still have time to work the major league kinks out.


I don't think I could possibly disagree with this more than I do...

#1 - If I read that correctly, you're saying that the Twins should promote players faster than they should be promoted so that they can trade them? Don't you think that part of the reason that the four players the Twins got from the Mets struggled so much was because they were promoted too quickly? Maybe if they had been promoted more appropriately, they would have turned out. The Twins have called some players up when they are 21-22. Mauer was 20 when he debuted. There are other examples. Most are 24-25... but that's pretty normal. That's why most free agents are 30-32 years old.

#2 - I get what you're saying, that they have less big league time to develop than if they get pushed up too early. Of course, if pushing them too early means that their minor league development isn't done correctly, then it doesn't matter because they won't make it in the big leagues. Parmelee is one example, but the Twins could hardly find a place for him to play in 2012... where were they going to find it in 2011 before September? And, looking at Parmelee's numbers in 2010 and then again in 2011 at AA, I'd say we still can't say he'll be a star. Alexi Casilla debuted early with the Twins... did that help his overall development?

someone once told me... the goal is not to get them to the big leagues as fast as possible... it's for them to be ready when they get there. That makes total sense to me... Would Denard Span have been ready as a 20 year old to get playing time with the Twins when he was struggling in the Midwest League? That would have crushed him.

#26 Seth Stohs

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:34 PM

I am not saying that the Twins have not had exceptions in moving through the minors. Jesse Crain and Scott Baker are two examples of what I think should be the standard for the Twins, and if you look at their minor league career you can picture how a short season A team would have naturally fit into their path.


Garza went from Ft. Myers to the big leagues in one year.
Slowey went from Ft. Myers to Rochester. (same with Baker and Crain) Oh, and Kyle Gibson did too in his first pro season.
Brian Duensing pitched for Beloit, Ft. Myers and New Britain in the same year. Logan Darnell did that last year.

The Twins had five of their 2012 draft picks move up to Beloit this year. That's not exactly slow. The guys that didn't were fighting some injury.

There are a bunch of examples of examples of college pitchers who the Twins have moved up quite quickly. Are they more patient with the toosly hitters? Absolutely. Should they?! Probably not. I'd say their track record with guys like Morneau, Mauer, Kubel, Cuddyer, Span, Revere indicates that they're not exactly hurting their players. Yup, every organization is going to have their Matt Moses, and the jury is still out on Plouffe and Benson and such...

#27 kab21

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:20 PM

People complain about this station to station approach the Twins have had but like I've said before very few twins prospects have deserved to be pushed aggressively. And now there is a complaint that Arcia has been promoted too slowly. He'll probably be up for good at age 22.

This whole complaint with the September callups is ridiculous also. the financial setback from calling up top prospects in September has made this a thing of the past unless they are fighting for a playoff spot.

#28 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:02 PM

Change to question from whether the other 29 teams woulda called up Hicks/Arcia this Sept if they had em.
The AL team goin to the World Series callup up a lower prospect & has him starting in the playoffs but the worst team in the AL cant find playing time for em AND plan on having both spend the first half of next yr in AAA.
This organization is emabarrasing & next yrs 90 loss team wil finally clean out the management garbage that enjoys the Carsons/Blackburn/Butera's of the world

#29 kab21

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:42 PM

I already typed it in the previous post but the only teams that usually call up top prospects for September are playoff teams. The Twins are not alone in this. This is the new economics of baseball.

#30 TRex

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:46 PM

So you would have had them start in February, play all the way until Oct. 4, and then start in Venezuela Oct. 10th? Or perhaps you think their time in the ML would mean that they didn't need to go to the winter leagues? Maybe you think they could have started in Venezuela any time the Twins wanted? What would your development timeline have been from Sept. 1 until Feb. 20th?

I understand that people have the right to wish (demand) that the minor leagues be better (different). However, over the last 12 years (in which the Twins have had winning records in 9 years), the Twins minor league yearly average was 11th in MLB (according to BA). And it appears it will be in the 11 range this coming year as well. And with the 4th overall pick in the 2013 draft it is likely that we will be back in the top 10. This hardly seems like an inept organization.