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Front Page: Twins Game Recap (8/23): Berríos, Bullpen Can’t Hold Baseball’s Worst Offense

jose berrios jake cave sergio romo miguel sano ryne harper
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#61 Dantes929

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 11:46 AM

 

Not pulling Berrios after the first two hitters reached in the 6th is incredibly poor management. He had struggled all game.

Why?

I cant even come up with a plausible explanation.

Awful.

As for "enjoying" this...I enjoy watching them win. If you enjoy watching them lose a game in the standings while facing Drew Verhagen-who doesnt qualify for the term journeyman-more power to ya. I dont.

Not hindsight. If the hits that inning were squeakers, thats one thing but everything hit that inning was rockets.Even the line out. Now the main culprit was the hanging curve ball but his location of the curveball all night was way off and he was helped occassionally with Tigers swinging at horrible pitches. He really didn't have it.I made a mental note to comment that Rocco should have pulled Berrios earlier even if he got out of that inning. Of course no one enjoys losing but I do enjoy the drama. I will say sometimes journeymen can pitch like aces and vice versa. Berriios uncontrolled curveball was more 2 oclock to 8 oclock.Verhagens's curveballs were sharp 12 to 6.I didn't see the whole game but when he struck out the side they weren't such bad at bats but truly nasty pitches against very good hitters..  

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#62 yarnivek1972

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 12:31 PM

Minor would not have pushed Berrios out of the starting rotation. Neither would Stroman, or whatever savior one was hoping to be acquired. So last night's game was not affected, whichever way that FO decision went. Why bring it up in a game recap?

Also, with regard to exactly when to pull Berrios last night, look at the spotty outcome from the bullpen when they did get brought in, and ask what difference it would have made in the game. It would have been different, because that's the nature of baseball, but it's not obvious that any choice would have resulted in a win.

Is Berrios tipping his pitches? What is Wes Johnson doing, and are his short-season college-ball tactics getting exposed during the long grind of a major league season? Those are questions I'd rather find answers to.



Out of permanently, of course not. But, the presence of another real good starter perhaps allows the Twins to give Berrios the rest he likely needs. As I have said before, I’m not sure they can because even where Berrios is now, he’s probably better than any other option the Twins have.

Once again, it’s the Twins saying “We have 5 starters. We don’t need another one.”
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#63 yarnivek1972

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 12:35 PM

Couldn't agree more. I was at the game last night on a gorgeous evening, and although disappointed in the result, thoroughly enjoyed watching this entertaining team. Yep, bring on September!

That said, can we please bring on September WITH Byron Buxton. I know his absence is not the only reason for our recent mediocre record, but I seem to notice something in almost every loss that would have been better with Buck in there. Last night it was the slicing double to right that Gonzo couldn't quite get to (don't get me wrong...I like Gonzo...but he's not Kep in RF)...I'm fairly certain Kepler would have caught that ball if he hadn't had to play center in Buck's absence.

The sample size is too big to ignore:

Twins with Buck in the lineup: 56-25 (a .691 percentage...far and away the best in baseball)
Twins with Buck out: 21-26

I still see this team as a contender if Byron can return. But without him, it will be a very short post-season.


Real short. Like not making it short.

#64 USAFChief

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 01:46 PM

I get the frustration with losing to the worst team in the league with our supposed "ace" on the mound against a pitcher with a 6+ ERA. But don't sleep on this Verhagen kid. He obviously missed his spots last night a few times, but his double digit strikeouts were legit. He's a big imposing guy on the mound, and easily throws mid-90s with a wipeout slider...striking out...

1) .


That "kid" is almost 29, and has 6 seasons of well below average performance. He's never recorded double digit Ks in a game all the way back through college.

That wasnt good pitching. That was crap hitting.
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#65 Riverbrian

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 01:54 PM

 

Ummm...let's expand our minds to second and third order effects. Minor would have actually plugged in as our acting number 1 while B struggled. One of the starters could have gone to the bullpen and potentially facilitated the dumping of Harper or slowed the AAAA express. Minor actually pitching starting innings (7-9) would prevent over usage of the bullpen at least one day......so it could be inevitably used more on the shorter starts of the other pitchers.....and so on and so on.....

 

I think what you meant to argue is that the Twins really needed was to acquire 2 starters instead of just one at the deadline because 1 may not have been enough so yes...I was incorrect....we should have obtained Stroman and Minor if we were serious (and lets not forget that Stroman did not cost THAT much).

 

Not taking chances at the trade deadline with our top 10 farm system will haunt like walks

 

It's hard to say what the prices were. If the prices were indeed too high... then OK.

 

They have been somewhat aggressive since they walked in the door so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. 

 

 

Back in June when we had a huge lead and we were all looking at the trade deadline for playoff enhancement. The majority of our TD posters were focused on the bullpen and that is understandable. 

 

We did need bullpen arms there was no question about it. 

 

However, I believed then and I believe now that a quality starter was a much bigger priority. 

 

Back when we were rolling... Our starters were taking care of the majority of the innings and our offense was driving up huge run differentials. These two things really masked the bullpen situation that eventually came to a conclusion in June with the release of 4 of them. 

 

I believed then... based on how the team was getting the job done. If we lost a starter or two to injury or if a starter or two develop a case of the struggles (See Perez... See Berrios). It would reveal a hole in both the rotation and the pen because the pen would have to pick up the slack. 

 

There are times when I hate being right all the time. 

 

Since I'm not seeing Smeltzer or Dobnak making any starts and it is late August and I'm seeing Thorpe being held silent unless the game is not in doubt. 

 

I fully believe it is the plan of the front office to hold and simply fight through these issues with Berrios and Perez.  

 

This is incredibly risky. It might work out fine... but this is incredibly risky in my opinion. 

 

If the health in the rotation holds (History suggests it won't)... this means that the starting rotation will absorb a lot of innings. 

 

If the health doesn't hold... they will have to turn to someone that they don't have near enough MLB data on... basically bet red and hope the roulette wheel turns up red. 

 

If the health does hold... they will be running low on gas... Right about the time we really really need them... In the playoffs. 

 

Being primarily healthy in the rotation is not lucky. It really isn't. 

 

That said... we can still do this thing. I'll be watching faithfully. 

 

 

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#66 longstrangetrip

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 02:06 PM

 

That "kid" is almost 29, and has 6 seasons of well below average performance. He's never recorded double digit Ks in a game all the way back through college.

That wasnt good pitching. That was crap hitting.

Ha, anyone under 30 is a "kid" to me...heck, maybe under 40!

 

Anyway, I was lucky to have the front row last night (stubhub can be a beautiful thing), and VerHagen's stuff was quite impressive...downright overpowering. When I looked up his stats online, his lack of success in the minors was surprising given his stuff.It's clear to me his TJ surgery and shoulder issues have held him back.He looked more like the AAA 2018 version of himself last night...51 K's in 32 innings and a 1.65 ERA.The Twins are free swingers, so a guy with good stuff can make them look foolish at times.But I haven't seen anyone make Arraez look foolish all season, and VerHagen did it twice.Yeah, he missed his spot a couple times, and Sano and Cruz made him pay big time.But the rest of the night he was legitimately lights out.I have issues with how three of our pitchers failed against the light-hitting Tigers, but I don't fault our hitters at all (except for perhaps Polanco against Farmer)...VerHagen was scary last night. 

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#67 AceWrigley

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 02:12 PM

On Rodriguez's slam, I guess if you throw the same pitch 4 times in a row at the same speed and the last one with poor location it's going to have a higher probability of being deposited where no one on the field can catch it. Ok, he throws a nice 82 mph curve but for crying out loud, what happened to mixing up your pitches? I'll bet Castro would like to take that one back. 17 hits allowed isn't going to lead to many wins. Here's to hoping the starters can find their mojo again. Go Twins!!


#68 D.C Twins

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 03:37 PM

 

You never know what you're going to get when you trade prospects for a starter, and we don't know what the asking price was for Stroman (Mets gave up a first rounder and a second rounder).But we do know this: since the trade, Stroman has walked 10 and given up 10 earned runs in his 19 innings.Not very good.I'm guessing this board would be pretty unhappy right now if we had given up a recent first and second rounder for that kind of pitching performance.   

 

Minor would have been a terrific pickup, but at what cost?Texas was likely asking for a couple of our top fivers (the fact that Minor was not dealt tells us every GM thought the asking price was too high), and I personally would have been unhappy to see a combo like Graterol/Kiriloff gone in exchange. 

 

Our pitching is troubled right now with Berrios struggling, but I still think the front office did the right thing in not overpaying for pitching help. 

Of course you are never promised a successful trade.... but you are also not promised that your prospects are going to be stars....that is why you have to take calculated risks when things are breaking in your favor (ie an 11 game lead in the division).

 

The FO has to make decisions about their current core. If they like Buck and Polanco at CF and SS, then yeah, maybe you do trade Lewis for pitching. I

 

If you think Lewis is a superstar in the making then he should be up in the next 1-2 years then maybe you trade Polanco for pitching help....Same analysis for all the other position player prospects in the minors

 

But the bottom line is that if you want to compete for championships and not sustained above average-ness you have to access well and make hard decisions. And to maximize the current window we need more pitching

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#69 howeda7

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:22 PM

 

Minor would not have pushed Berrios out of the starting rotation. Neither would Stroman, or whatever savior one was hoping to be acquired. So last night's game was not affected, whichever way that FO decision went. Why bring it up in a game recap?

 

Also, with regard to exactly when to pull Berrios last night, look at the spotty outcome from the bullpen when they did get brought in, and ask what difference it would have made in the game. It would have been different, because that's the nature of baseball, but it's not obvious that any choice would have resulted in a win.

 

Is Berrios tipping his pitches? What is Wes Johnson doing, and are his short-season college-ball tactics getting exposed during the long grind of a major league season? Those are questions I'd rather find answers to.

Not directly. But it would make it easier to pull the trigger on putting Berios on the IL and giving him 10 days off. Nothing excuses the front office refusing to part with any of their top 20 prospects to help this pitching staff. 

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#70 USAFChief

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:25 PM

Not directly. But it would make it easier to pull the trigger on putting Berios on the IL and giving him 10 days off. Nothing excuses the front office refusing to part with any of their top 20 prospects to help this pitching staff.

precisely.

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#71 howeda7

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:27 PM

 

It's hard to say what the prices were. If the prices were indeed too high... then OK.

 

They have been somewhat aggressive since they walked in the door so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. 

 

 

Back in June when we had a huge lead and we were all looking at the trade deadline for playoff enhancement. The majority of our TD posters were focused on the bullpen and that is understandable. 

 

We did need bullpen arms there was no question about it. 

 

However, I believed then and I believe now that a quality starter was a much bigger priority. 

 

Back when we were rolling... Our starters were taking care of the majority of the innings and our offense was driving up huge run differentials. These two things really masked the bullpen situation that eventually came to a conclusion in June with the release of 4 of them. 

 

I believed then... based on how the team was getting the job done. If we lost a starter or two to injury or if a starter or two develop a case of the struggles (See Perez... See Berrios). It would reveal a hole in both the rotation and the pen because the pen would have to pick up the slack. 

 

There are times when I hate being right all the time. 

 

Since I'm not seeing Smeltzer or Dobnak making any starts and it is late August and I'm seeing Thorpe being held silent unless the game is not in doubt. 

 

I fully believe it is the plan of the front office to hold and simply fight through these issues with Berrios and Perez.  

 

This is incredibly risky. It might work out fine... but this is incredibly risky in my opinion. 

 

If the health in the rotation holds (History suggests it won't)... this means that the starting rotation will absorb a lot of innings. 

 

If the health doesn't hold... they will have to turn to someone that they don't have near enough MLB data on... basically bet red and hope the roulette wheel turns up red. 

 

If the health does hold... they will be running low on gas... Right about the time we really really need them... In the playoffs. 

 

Being primarily healthy in the rotation is not lucky. It really isn't. 

 

That said... we can still do this thing. I'll be watching faithfully. 

I was much more the on the Keuchel bandwagon than the Kimbrel bandwagon for this reason. But the bottom line is that they could have added a starter for nothing but $ or they could have used their deep farm system to trade for one. They did neither and are paying the price. We're supposed to wait for next year, when the rotation has one guy set. 


#72 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:27 PM

 

Not directly. But it would make it easier to pull the trigger on putting Berios on the IL and giving him 10 days off. Nothing excuses the front office refusing to part with any of their top 20 prospects to help this pitching staff. 

This is one of the things that irritates the hell out of me.

 

If a player was traded, all hands on deck. Why didn't the Twins front office make a better offer?

 

If a player wasn't traded, what exactly are we complaining about? That roughly 12 other teams didn't make an offer good enough to take a player away from their original team?

 

That tells you something rather important about that player and the team in question.


#73 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:30 PM

 

precisely.

So which player did you want to get that wasn't actually traded?

 

I get the Stroman thing but you actually said you didn't like Stroman just a few weeks ago.

 

Also, it was reported that Falvine was frustrated that the Jays didn't give the Twins a chance to counter-offer for Stroman before he was traded.

 

So where exactly do you land in all of this?


#74 howeda7

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:36 PM

 

This is one of the things that irritates the hell out of me.

 

If a player was traded, all hands on deck. Why didn't the Twins front office make a better offer?

 

If a player wasn't traded, what exactly are we complaining about? That roughly 12 other teams didn't make an offer good enough to take a player away from their original team?

 

That tells you something rather important about that player and the team in question.

I don't buy this argument in the case of a guy like Minor. I refuse to believe it would have required some package of Kirloff and Graterol to get him. Stroman was worth more than Minor. So the asking price in all likelihood was a similar package to that or less. We don't know which other teams were interested. Minor is not some ace. But he would have helped this staff a lot. 

 

The bottom line is that this rotation and staff needed help. We have a deep farm system. And we clung to all of our top 20 prospects like grim death and did the absolute minimum to help it. 

Edited by howeda7, 24 August 2019 - 10:37 PM.

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#75 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:37 PM

 

I don't buy this argument in the case of a guy like Minor. I refuse to believe it would have required some package of Kirloff and Graterol to get him. Stroman was worth more than Minor. So the asking price in all likelihood was a similar package to that or less. We don't know which other teams were interested. Minor is not some ace. But he would have helped this staff a lot. 

Yet Minor went untraded when in EVERY DEADLINE several teams need starters.

 

Occam's Razor.

 

You're viewing it in a personal vacuum. You don't think a single other team than the Twins needed a starter? So why did no one land Minor?

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#76 USAFChief

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:41 PM

So which player did you want to get that wasn't actually traded?

I get the Stroman thing but you actually said you didn't like Stroman just a few weeks ago.

Also, it was reported that Falvine was frustrated that the Jays didn't give the Twins a chance to counter-offer for Stroman before he was traded.

So where exactly do you land in all of this?

I gave them a "C" for the trade deadline.

But there is no doubt additional pitching would have been useful.

It's not my job to name the starter they should have acquired. It's their job. They were "frustrated" by Toronto? Come on. Seriously. You honestly believe another GM wouldn't try to top that offer, if he had any reason to believe the Twins were serious? Or is it more likely they were lowballed by the Twins, and that's the reason they didn't bother with a call back? Or maybe they did, and the "frustration" is PR.

Other GMs found a way to get things done. I wish ours had been bolder. Another starter would have been pretty nice. Allowed for more leeway to give our other starters a break, maybe. Like noted above.

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#77 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:44 PM

 

I gave them a "C" for the trade deadline.

But there is no doubt additional pitching would have been useful.

It's not my job to name the starter they should have acquired. It's their job. They were "frustrated" by Toronto? Come on. Seriously. You honestly believe another GM wouldn't try to top that offer, if he had any reason to believe the Twins were serious? Or is it more likely they were lowballed by the Twins, and that's the reason they didn't bother with a call back? Or maybe they did, and the "frustration" is PR.

Other GMs found a way to get things done. I wish ours had been bolder. Another starter would have been pretty nice. Allowed for more leeway to give our other starters a break, maybe. Like noted above.

I agree they probably should have landed Stroman but this is a human effort. They're allowed to be frustrated when a team pulls the trigger unexpectedly, as the entire Mets/Stroman deal went down.

 

Do you think the Twins were the only "frustrated" team after that deal? It was almost nonsensical. I guarantee there are a half dozen GMs shaking their heads, thinking "****, we could have done better than that had they given us the chance".

 

It may not be "your job" to name a good trade but you named a starter you didn't like and now you complain that the team didn't get him.


#78 USAFChief

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:48 PM

I agree they probably should have landed Stroman but this is a human effort. They're allowed to be frustrated when a team pulls the trigger unexpectedly, as the entire Mets/Stroman deal went down.

Do you think the Twins were the only "frustrated" team after that deal? It was almost nonsensical. I guarantee there are a half dozen GMs shaking their heads, thinking "****, we could have done better than that had they given us the chance".

well, if you believe their story, then Falvine WERE in contact, and they obviously didn't make an offer that topped the Mets offer that got the job done. They lowballed, rather than make a good offer. Toronto hung up the phone and moved on.

So they really have nobody to blame but themselves, no?

And for the record, I didn't bring up Stroman in this conversation, you did.

I simply agreed with the point that another starter would have made it easier to give a guy like Berrios some extra rest.

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#79 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:50 PM

 

well, if you believe their story, then Falvine WERE in contact, and they obviously didn't make an offer that topped the Mets offer that got the job done. They lowballed, rather than make a good offer.

So they really have nobody to blame but themselves, no?

I mean, maybe, but you didn't like the guy anyway so why do you care?


#80 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:56 PM

Literally, what you said on May 7th is:

 

"The Jays can have Gonsalves for Stroman."

 

So now their "lowball offer" is an affront to the organization and its fans?

 

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