Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Photo

Front Page: Twins Game Recap (8/19): Twins Unable to Mount Comeback, Drop Series Opener 6-4

kyle gibson jorge polanco nelson cruz luis arraez eddie rosario
  • Please log in to reply
96 replies to this topic

#41 Dantes929

Dantes929

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 2,606 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:05 AM

 

Looking only at qualifiers is silly. A LOT MORE than 28 pitchers pitch in the AL. If you expand that to a number where you have 100+ starters in the AL, he's right in the middle of all pitchers. Unless you think only comparing him to the 28 best players is a fair way to judge him compared to the 131 pitchers that have started an AL game.....

I was already thinking along the same lines. My math says every team pretty much goes with a 5 man rotation. 15 teams times 5 pitchers means 75 starting rotation spots. His ERA is slightly better than league average but worse than the Twins ERA which is still somehow in the American League top 5.Given how they have been for the last month I am surprised that the Twins are still 5th best in the AL in run prevention. Better than the Yankees. Anyway, we are defending Gibson but just against unfairness. I had much higher expectations for him than what we have seen so far this year.

  • Brock Beauchamp, Madisonsdad and rkevin like this
If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

#42 Dantes929

Dantes929

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 2,606 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:11 AM

Along those lines, I thought Smalley was spot on in a lot of his commentary last night. He said he wouldn't give Abreu anything good to hit with 1st base open and Gibson grooved the first pitch.The next guy got on with an error by Arraiz but still. That pitch pretty much cost the game and it was one Smalley had just cautioned against.

  • USAFChief, Madisonsdad, DiscGolfer and 1 other like this
If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

#43 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 22,644 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:11 AM

I was already thinking along the same lines. My math says every team pretty much goes with a 5 man rotation. 15 teams times 5 pitchers means 75 starting rotation spots. His ERA is slightly better than league average but worse than the Twins ERA which is still somehow in the American League top 5. Given how they have been for the last month I am surprised that the Twins are still 5th best in the AL in run prevention. Better than the Yankees. Anyway, we are defending Gibson but just against unfairness. I had much higher expectations for him than what we have seen so far this year.

Yep. Gibson can be a disappointment while still being a pretty good pitcher. The Twins need more of a #2 performance from him while they’re getting a #3 performance this season. Not a massive drop off but enough to cost a couple of wins over a season.
  • DiscGolfer and Minny505 like this

#44 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 22,644 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:12 AM

Along those lines, I thought Smalley was spot on in a lot of his commentary last night. He said he wouldn't give Abreu anything good to hit with 1st base open and Gibson grooved the first pitch. The next guy got on with an error by Arraiz but still. That pitch pretty much cost the game and it was one Smalley had just cautioned against.

Yep, Smalley’s timing on that one was impeccable.
  • DiscGolfer and bighat like this

#45 alarp33

alarp33

    Member

  • Member
  • 2,292 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:16 AM

 

Yep. Gibson can be a disappointment while still being a pretty good pitcher. The Twins need more of a #2 performance from him while they’re getting a #3 performance this season. Not a massive drop off but enough to cost a couple of wins over a season.

 

June 19 - August 19 Gibson has a 5.23 ERA."still a pretty good pitcher".Ok

  • Dome Dogg and Bandit34 like this

"The game has changed since I've entered, it's for bright, energetic negotiators moreso than anything I possess." - Terry Ryan 2007


#46 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 22,644 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:23 AM

June 19 - August 19 Gibson has a 5.23 ERA. "still a pretty good pitcher". Ok

Mediocre pitchers have bad stretches. No league average pitcher goes out and throws 6 IP, 3 ER in every start. That’s not how it works.
  • Dantes929, SwainZag and Minny505 like this

#47 alarp33

alarp33

    Member

  • Member
  • 2,292 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:25 AM

 

Mediocre pitchers have bad stretches. No league average pitcher goes out and throws 6 IP, 3 ER in every start. That’s not how it works.

 

You said he was pretty good, not mediocre. That's not a bad stretch, thats half his season. 

  • Bandit34 likes this

"The game has changed since I've entered, it's for bright, energetic negotiators moreso than anything I possess." - Terry Ryan 2007


#48 alarp33

alarp33

    Member

  • Member
  • 2,292 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:27 AM

Gibson's ERA since June 16th is higher than Martin Perez's. 

  • Bandit34 likes this

"The game has changed since I've entered, it's for bright, energetic negotiators moreso than anything I possess." - Terry Ryan 2007


#49 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 22,644 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:29 AM

You said he was pretty good, not mediocre. That's not a bad stretch, thats half his season.

Are we now at the point of parsing intent behind phrases like “pretty good”, “mediocre”, and “decent”?

Because ugh.

Gibson still has an ERA+ of 107, btw. If you want to argue whether that’s decent, pretty good, or mediocre, have at it because I don’t care enough to participate in that kind of pedantry.
  • Minny505 likes this

#50 Tyler Roepke

Tyler Roepke

    Elizabethton Twins

  • Member
  • 7 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:31 AM

I can't fathom what Gibson was trying to accomplish with the 92 mph meatball he threw Abreu. The only thing that would even remotely make sense is if he was trying to go inside and left it over the plate. You can throw that pitch to Abreu 10 times and he'll crank it out of the park 9 times. Home run derby type of pitch.

  • Bandit34 and VivaBomboRivera! like this

#51 Bandit34

Bandit34

    Ft Myers Miracle

  • Member
  • 348 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:34 AM

The bottom line is if we can not go out and get somebody better than Kyle Gibson this offseason that's pretty sad of our front office. I believe we will find someone better though and I look forward to the day when Gibson signs with another team. His career in light of being such a high draft pick, has been very disappointing in all aspects. It's unfortunate but some guys just never reach their potential, some don't even come close. I think Gibson had what it takes to be a great pitcher, but I don't think he will ever be one. 


#52 SwainZag

SwainZag

    Member

  • Moderator
  • 2,426 posts
  • LocationMontana

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:41 AM

I'm surprised this whole recap is basically about Gibson not performing.The Twins had 15 hits, 4 for extra bases and only could push 4 runs across the plate.They left 2 runners on the 2nd, 4th, 6th, and the 9th.Yes, Gibson made the mistake on the pitch to Abreu, but the offense set themselves up time and time again and couldn't find the clutch hits.

  • Brock Beauchamp, Riverbrian, Dantes929 and 3 others like this

#53 Dantes929

Dantes929

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 2,606 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:54 AM

 

I'm surprised this whole recap is basically about Gibson not performing.The Twins had 15 hits, 4 for extra bases and only could push 4 runs across the plate.They left 2 runners on the 2nd, 4th, 6th, and the 9th.Yes, Gibson made the mistake on the pitch to Abreu, but the offense set themselves up time and time again and couldn't find the clutch hits.

I think its just one of those games where the blame can be spread out pretty evenly. Offense, starter, relief, defense, base running. I had a bad feeling the game might have turned in the first inning when Rosario hit the rocket that the 2nd baseman made a great play on.Some days it might have still been enough to beat some teams but playing well enough to beat most teams is the standard they need to play up to. I'm just not so sure about the clutch hitting part. I get what you are saying but are you expecting them to have more than 15 hits and more than 4 extra base hits or do you think it is in their control when they get those hits.? 

If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

#54 AlwaysinModeration

AlwaysinModeration

    Minnesota Twins

  • Member
  • 2,595 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:59 AM

I can't fathom what Gibson was trying to accomplish with the 92 mph meatball he threw Abreu. The only thing that would even remotely make sense is if he was trying to go inside and left it over the plate. You can throw that pitch to Abreu 10 times and he'll crank it out of the park 9 times. Home run derby type of pitch.


Get ahead in the count, I’m pretty sure. The announcers were also touting how he had thrown first pitch strikes for a majority of the batters of the game.
  • Madisonsdad, Tyler Roepke and Original Whizzinator like this

#55 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Moderator
  • 21,999 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 20 August 2019 - 10:02 AM

The throw was very low to the ground. Which implies the catcher would need to widen his stance to field it, as compared to receiving a higher throw. And his stance was widened only as he was moving his whole body in the direction of the throw. All of that seems allowable by the rule. Catchers aren't required to wait for the throw in a seated or kneeling position.

Keep in mind, the rule was put in place to protect catchers from collisions. After some initial confusion, I think they've tightened up enforcement over the past few years with that purpose in mind, although such things still aren't 100% consistent or predictable. Which is why it still may have been worth a challenge (although that's precisely what I hate about the challenge system).


I can buy what you are selling

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#56 bighat

bighat

    Sombrero Grande

  • Member
  • 2,883 posts
  • LocationGuatemala

Posted 20 August 2019 - 10:03 AM

 

Well summarized. This was not a gimme play that would automatically have been overturned. I don't know the percentages but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if New York let the call stand almost immediately.

 

Would I have challenged? Sure, but I don't think it's some massive oversight where everyone on the Twins suddenly forgot the rules. What's more likely than the team forgetting the rules is that they have seen far more of these plays and know a challenge is likely wasted on a play of this kind.

 

Bingo. Since that rule's been in place, I've only seen the call overturned once. And it was like the lead story on ESPN that night. It's, frankly, a rule that umps and the league doesn't want to enforce (much like the "neighborhood" play). There's no way that gets overturned, IMO.

 

The only way it'll be overturned in the future is if it's a bang-bang play where the runner was almost safe. On a play like that, where Sano was out by a good distance, it wouldn't be overturned no matter if he was blocking the plate or not.

  • Minny505 likes this

#57 DiscGolfer

DiscGolfer

    Member

  • Member
  • 1,182 posts
  • LocationTC

Posted 20 August 2019 - 10:06 AM

Last night felt like the closest thing to a quality start from a Twins starter in a while.1 bad inning and 1 bad pitch cost the game.He should've pitched around Abreu in that situation.But if a few more balls drop or or something squeaks through then the story of the game is much different.

 

On the Sano play if all of us are debating that play this much and can't come up with convincing evidence that it should've been reversed there is no way the umps would have overturned it during the game.It was a tough break play that Chicago pulled off defensively. Overall Chicago made enough good plays on defense to win the game.

 

Tough loss in a very winnable game, go get 'em tonight (if the rain holds off)

  • Original Whizzinator likes this

#58 SwainZag

SwainZag

    Member

  • Moderator
  • 2,426 posts
  • LocationMontana

Posted 20 August 2019 - 10:08 AM

 

I think its just one of those games where the blame can be spread out pretty evenly. Offense, starter, relief, defense, base running. I had a bad feeling the game might have turned in the first inning when Rosario hit the rocket that the 2nd baseman made a great play on.Some days it might have still been enough to beat some teams but playing well enough to beat most teams is the standard they need to play up to. I'm just not so sure about the clutch hitting part. I get what you are saying but are you expecting them to have more than 15 hits and more than 4 extra base hits or do you think it is in their control when they get those hits.? 

 

I'm saying they had several chances to add runs and failed, many times twice in one inning.Not being able to get a runner home from 2nd with less than two outs with this offense is something that's going to bite them in the rear end and it did.


#59 USAFChief

USAFChief

    Bad puns. That's how eye roll.

  • Moderator
  • 25,100 posts
  • LocationTucson

Posted 20 August 2019 - 10:12 AM

If you ask me, the throw Rosario made was at least as bad, and IMO worse, than the pitch Gibson threw.

 

 

  • BD57 likes this

Cutting my carbs...with a pizza slicer.


#60 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 22,644 posts

Posted 20 August 2019 - 10:13 AM

 

If you ask me, the throw Rosario made was at least as bad, and IMO worse, than the pitch Gibson threw.

I'd really prefer not to pick a "winner" between those two plays.

  • Mike Sixel, Tyler Roepke, Original Whizzinator and 1 other like this



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: kyle gibson, jorge polanco, nelson cruz, luis arraez, eddie rosario