Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Photo

Front Page: "Unwritten Rule" Gets Max Kepler Hit By A Pitch

jake cave max kepler rocco baldelli tommy watkins
  • Please log in to reply
93 replies to this topic

#41 mikelink45

mikelink45

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • 2,819 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 03:08 PM

This is stupid. Why not have a ten run rule and stop the game if you are supposed to quit playing? Dumb as are all the unwritten rules. Sorry he did not hit a home run.
  • Madisonsdad and Danchat like this

#42 old nurse

old nurse

    Member

  • Member
  • 3,869 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 03:13 PM

No hit batters by the Yankees after they were down by 10 and giving up more runs.

  • Madisonsdad and Dman like this

#43 FlauerPauer

FlauerPauer

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,496 posts
  • LocationSyracuse, NY

Posted 16 August 2019 - 03:15 PM

Who cares if Cave is trying to play the game the right way. So stupid. Pitcher should be fined for plunking Kepler. What if he got hurt? What a joke.

  • brvama likes this

#44 ashbury

ashbury

    Twins fan, no joke!

  • Moderator
  • 24,885 posts
  • LocationNatick, MA

Posted 16 August 2019 - 03:19 PM

I've been critical of Cave's decision-making in the outfield, but I guess I have to broaden it to say that he periodically makes decisions that his peers would not make. Visionary? Or just not paying attention through 7 years of pro ball, as to how everyone else plays the game?

  • Platoon and jkcarew like this

I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.


#45 Twinsoholic

Twinsoholic

    Member

  • Member
  • 222 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 03:41 PM

Notice that Bremer and Smalley were surprised Cave swung 3 and 0. They know the "rule." Tommy Watkins knows the "rule"--that's why he said something to Cave at first base. Cave knows the "rule"--he likely had the count wrong in his mind at that time, so he swung the bat at the pitch. 

  • Platoon and jkcarew like this

#46 The Billy Goat

The Billy Goat

    Elizabethton Twins

  • Member
  • 16 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 03:44 PM

I personally love the unwritten rules and the history that they bring to the game.If a player feels that an unwritten rule has been broken, I don't mind if he retaliates, within reason.  

 

That said, I must be honest in saying that I have never heard of this unwritten rule.It doesn't even make sense to me.By swinging, Cave is moving the game along towards the end.His BABIP is lower than his percentage to draw a walk from that count (especially considering that the next 3 pitches were out of the strike zone).Also, what is gained by him waiting for one more pitch?If it would have been out of the strike zone, is he obligated to swing so that the pitcher saves face from a 4-pitch walk?

 

I also would believe that unwritten rules would require the Giants to wait until Cave is back up to the plate to exact justice.Waiting until he was backed into another 3-0 count before plunking Kepler just points to the fact that Kelley wasn't primarily concerned with enforcing unwritten rules, he was just a frustrated pitcher who took out his anger on an opposing batter.There's no place for that in my opinion.

  • jkcarew likes this

#47 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 9,958 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 03:59 PM

 

I love the unwritten rules. More fights. More brawls. Make the game more fun. 

 

Here's the baseball codes write up on the matter by Jason Turbow. Great book for baseball fans.

 

https://thebaseballc...-kind-of-thing/

  • jkcarew likes this

#48 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 7,907 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 04:13 PM

I love how we're whining about players whining about how baseball is conducted.

I love the unwritten rules. More fights. More brawls. Make the game more fun.

Here's the baseball codes write up on the matter by Jason Turbow. Great book for baseball fans.

https://thebaseballc...-kind-of-thing/


So many head scratching details in that article.

Here is one that particularly stands out to me:

"Francona brushed it off as no big deal, saying that his mind had been wrapped around devising ways for the Red Sox to come back in the final frame and that he hadn’t even noticed."


So, the opposing manager is devising a way to come back and win the game, but the other team isn't supposed to attempt to expand the lead?
This is baffling logic to me.

That article didn't make anything clearer to me. It's chock full of contradictory logic, such as the notion that taking a pitch is supposed to expedite the finish of the game.

Really, the only thing that article did for me is leave me with an absolute disgust for Ron Gardenhire. Reading this completely explains why his teams had zero success in the playoffs.

While Terry Francona is focused on scratching and clawing at any opening to come back and win the game, Gardenhire is dragging his young player to a back alley meeting with the opposing manager to apologize for having the audacity to try to play aggressive baseball.
  • Madisonsdad, Kelly Vance and Danchat like this

#49 Kelly Vance

Kelly Vance

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • 755 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 04:41 PM

The pitcher should have been ejected along with the manager. And both should be fined. And unwritten rules ain’t worth the paper they ain’t written on. I understand not doing a squeeze bunt up 8 runs, but not trying to hit a pitch down the pipe would be bush league, like not running out a ground ball out. It’s a matter of integrity. You try your best every play. Fans didn’t pay to watch you tank a play. Cave had nothing to apologize for.
  • Madisonsdad and Nine of twelve like this

#50 ScrapTheNickname

ScrapTheNickname

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 2,815 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 04:44 PM

It is a common sense unwritten rule. You're up 8 in the 9th and the count is 3-0. You don't swing. Cave swung. The next better Kepler got beaned in the gentlest of possible ways. Kepler didn't get mad. Baldelli didn't get mad. It's baseball. This is how baseball is played. It's a great unwritten rule.

  • notoriousgod71, Platoon and jkcarew like this

#51 twinbythebay

twinbythebay

    Elizabethton Twins

  • Member
  • 17 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 04:47 PM

 

Absolutely have to plunk one of their guys tonight, IMO.

One AAAA batter swinging at another AAAA pitcher’s 3-0 pitch does not warrant hitting one of the best players in the league and opening him up to injury during a pennant race in late August.

Cave is trying to establish himself in the majors. It could mean millions of dollars for him and his family. Why the hell shouldn’t he take any cookie the pitcher gives him?

If the Rangers had a good player, I’d say throw at that guy. They’ll just have to pick someone else.

 

Retaliate for a stupid move by the Rangers with a stupid move of our own, thus inviting a beanball war and putting our players at even more risk of injury? Brilliant.

 

The Rangers have nothing to lose. They're not making the playoffs so I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige in that asshattery rather than actually playing the game. Beat the hell out of them on the scoreboard where it actually matters.

  • Madisonsdad likes this

#52 big dog

big dog

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 3,053 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 04:48 PM

If throwing at players is not acceptable, then the umpires screwed up since apparently everyone on the field knew it was coming.

 

If you are not trying to win, then don't shift.And throw strikes if you want to get the game over with faster.

 

When Cave's in arbitration will the team be willing to adjust his statistics for the at-bats where he wasn't supposed to try?

  • Madisonsdad, Kelly Vance and Nine of twelve like this

#53 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Member
  • 31,169 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 04:51 PM

Absolutely have to plunk one of their guys tonight, IMO.

One AAAA batter swinging at another AAAA pitcher’s 3-0 pitch does not warrant hitting one of the best players in the league and opening him up to injury during a pennant race in late August.

Cave is trying to establish himself in the majors. It could mean millions of dollars for him and his family. Why the hell shouldn’t he take any cookie the pitcher gives him?

If the Rangers had a good player, I’d say throw at that guy. They’ll just have to pick someone else.


Disagree. More violence is not the answer.
  • brvama likes this

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#54 Mike Sixel

Mike Sixel

    Now living in Oregon

  • Member
  • 31,169 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 04:53 PM

If throwing at players is not acceptable, then the umpires screwed up since apparently everyone on the field knew it was coming.

If you are not trying to win, then don't shift. And throw strikes if you want to get the game over with faster.

When Cave's in arbitration will the team be willing to adjust his statistics for the at-bats where he wasn't supposed to try?


Everyone read that last part. Is Cave supposed to what? Take a strike and maybe then make an out?
  • Madisonsdad likes this

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#55 notoriousgod71

notoriousgod71

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 3,073 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 05:07 PM

The HBP was also on a 3-0 count, which would have made six of his last seven pitches out of the strike zone. What makes anyone think this was done on purpose?


#56 bighat

bighat

    Sombrero Grande

  • Member
  • 3,069 posts
  • LocationGuatemala

Posted 16 August 2019 - 05:08 PM

I think this escalates - especially if Texas blows out the Twins one of these next 3 games.

 

If the Rangers are up 15-4 or something, I wouldn't put it past a guy like Trevor May or something to zip one into the rib cage of a guy like Hunter Pence or Elvis Andrus.

 

Kepler's the best all around player the Twins have. I think if a score gets out of hand, someone on Texas will pay before Sunday's over.


#57 gman

gman

    Cedar Rapids Kernels

  • Member
  • 244 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 05:09 PM

I don't know why cave would swing at a 3-0 pitch under any circumstances without specific instructions to. He's not Cruz, he should get fined by the Twins or chewed out for losing track of the count if that was the situation.

 

I don't care what the score was. The Twins have trouble with their pitching and no lead is safe as evidence by the the Yankees scoring 9 runs in the last 3 innings to win 14-12 a couple weeks back. If I was Baldelli I would be pissed if they were laying down at the end of game since they are trying to win the division.


#58 Danchat

Danchat

    Pro Bowl Armchair QB

  • Member
  • 5,213 posts

Posted 16 August 2019 - 05:25 PM

 

Notice that Bremer and Smalley were surprised Cave swung 3 and 0. They know the "rule." Tommy Watkins knows the "rule"--that's why he said something to Cave at first base. Cave knows the "rule"--he likely had the count wrong in his mind at that time, so he swung the bat at the pitch. 

I look forward to when this old style of thinking is dead and gone. 

 

It is a common sense unwritten rule. You're up 8 in the 9th and the count is 3-0. You don't swing. Cave swung. The next better Kepler got beaned in the gentlest of possible ways. Kepler didn't get mad. Baldelli didn't get mad. It's baseball. This is how baseball is played. It's a great unwritten rule.

Why don't you swing? You potentially hit the ball into play and get out, thus quickening the game. I just find it unbelievable where there is a situation in baseball where you are not allowed to swing at a pitch in the strike zone, and if you do, one of your batters will be hit with a 90+ MPH pitch. 

 

Why would it suddenly be OK if Cave swung at a 3-1 pitch and got a hit - would the pitcher get pissy then, to? Why don't the batters just give up and get the game over with? What if the pitcher throws a ball out of the strike zone on the 3-0 count, and Cave swings and misses?

 

Vanimal perfectly stated this - it'd be like if NBA players were not allowed to take shots in a blowout, or how about in soccer, you wouldn't be allowed to attempt shot on goals, you'd just have to kick the ball back and forth, or in hockey, you'd just have to pass the puck back and forth.

 

But no, I guess "this is how baseball is played" - you're only allowed to try and hit in specific situations and appease bad teams and bad pitchers.

  • Steve Lein, Mike Sixel, Madisonsdad and 1 other like this

Check out my work at Purple Pain, a Vikings forum: 

Analyzing the Past Decade of Vikings Offseasons


#59 Sconnie

Sconnie

    Touch ‘em all!

  • Moderator
  • 5,491 posts
  • LocationNW Wisconsin

Posted 16 August 2019 - 05:31 PM

As noted in the game thread, this unwritten rule is derived from a bunch of highly competitive professionals who do this over the course of six month and in many cases have to play each other again the next day/week/month. It's a little professional courtesy of "don't pile on when the game is out of reach" combined with "let's all get through this one without anyone getting hurt". And in baseball (as with many sports), the players/managers have assumed the duty of enforcing these unwritten rules on the field (and one of the reasons for that was so that things stayed on the field).

If you think this is all stupid, you are entitled to your opinion. As with all unwritten rules, they do tend to evolve and change over the years (and new ones will be created) as player's attitudes about the game change. For example, players fraternizing with each other from different teams used to be a non-starter (and at one point crossed from unwritten rule to written rule) and it's completely gone away.

Attitudes towards sportsmanship in this country are changing and evolving and that impacts how people perceive this. there are people who think the concept of sportsmanship is entirely outdated as it applies to professional athletics, because of the professional nature of the game. YMMV on whether that's true or not, or good or not.

There are others who look at baseball's traditions as a way to preserve a cherished view of the past, where the things they liked about baseball's "glory years" are celebrated, including things like unwritten rules, while other aspects are ignored or discarded (racism, drug use, etc.).

I will say some of the comps people have been providing from other sports are a little silly: being up by 8 in the 9th is NOT the equivalent to being up by 10 with 2 minutes left in a basketball game...even in today's homer-happy era.

Part of me likes baseball's unwritten rules because they are often a little dumb. Keeping the sport a little weirder, a little goofy and so on isn't always a bad thing.

well stated! I disagree with pretty much every word, but it’s very well said. We’ve seen this bullpen give up 5 and 6 run leads on a regular basis. No such thing as out of hand.
  • Nine of twelve likes this

#60 Sconnie

Sconnie

    Touch ‘em all!

  • Moderator
  • 5,491 posts
  • LocationNW Wisconsin

Posted 16 August 2019 - 05:34 PM

I look forward to when this old style of thinking is dead and gone.

Why don't you swing? You potentially hit the ball into play and get out, thus quickening the game. I just find it unbelievable where there is a situation in baseball where you are not allowed to swing at a pitch in the strike zone, and if you do, one of your batters will be hit with a 90+ MPH pitch.

Why would it suddenly be OK if Cave swung at a 3-1 pitch and got a hit - would the pitcher get pissy then, to? Why don't the batters just give up and get the game over with? What if the pitcher throws a ball out of the strike zone on the 3-0 count, and Cave swings and misses?

Vanimal perfectly stated this - it'd be like if NBA players were not allowed to take shots in a blowout, or how about in soccer, you wouldn't be allowed to attempt shot on goals, you'd just have to kick the ball back and forth, or in hockey, you'd just have to pass the puck back and forth.

But no, I guess "this is how baseball is played" - you're only allowed to try and hit in specific situations and appease bad teams and bad pitchers.

if we’re reduced to plunking players over petty crap, then let’s institute the mercy rule like little league.
  • Mike Sixel, Danchat and Nine of twelve like this



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: jake cave, max kepler, rocco baldelli, tommy watkins