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Front Page: Twins Game Recap (8/11): Frustrating Loss Marred by Heartbreaking Moments

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#61 spycake

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:37 AM

 

Personally I would not have marched Rogers out there two nights in a row in a non-save situation. This move reminded me of when Gardenhire kept showing the Yankees Latroy Hawkins in the 2003 ALDS. It worked well the first time, not so well after that.

It's not as if Gardy had a lot of options that year though, especially after Johan exited early in game 1. Rincon wasn't that good yet, and Romero had a tough year. That pen was basically Hawkins and Guardado (and Guardado gave up runs in both of his appearances too).


#62 Dome Dogg

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:47 AM

 

Perspective is what is needed. I am more optimistic this morning, than last night. I would have totally agreed with darius last night on each and every point. This morning I am optimistic we get a day off - we hit the road - we re-group, and we forge ahead and make a run of it. I am saddened to start understanding this is not our year. But it probably never was, and is just our 1st year of an excellent window of opportunity coming. We don't have the pitching, and our in-game management, and our in-game execution isn't there in the crucial moments. We were out managed, and out executed yesterday. Not too mention out pitched. I am still having way more fun than 2011-2014, and if this season's results were reversed - our collective fans attitude would be just the opposite. Today we sit tied with our nemesis - we have alot to play for in Aug/Sept in 2019. I'll take it. I am not ready for football yet.

Honest question- why does everyone talk about this "window" opening? My comment is not aimed at this particular post/author, a number of people are talking about it. 

 

Schoop, Cron, Cruz, Perez, Odorizzi, Pineda and Castro could all be gone after this season (Cruz and Cron will likely re-sign, but they aren't young cornerstones).

 

Polanco started hot, now is trailing off. Berrios is trending in the wrong direction. Buxton can't stay on the field. Sano is a crapshoot from game-to-game. 

 

Sure, all of Graterol, Alcala, Balazovic, Kiriloff, Larnach etc could all pan out and we could have a great team, but it's not likely. 

 

This was the year, all the stuff the FO threw at the wall offensively worked better than they could have imagined, and they needed arms. They chose not to do anything at all during the offseason, then whined that the price was too high at the deadline. 

 

I guess I don't fully understand the narrative that this team has a ton of pieces in place to be some sort of great team for the next decade. 

 

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#63 Doomtints

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:47 AM

 

It's not as if Gardy had a lot of options that year though, especially after Johan exited early in game 1. Rincon wasn't that good yet, and Romero had a tough year. That pen was basically Hawkins and Guardado (and Guardado gave up runs in both of his appearances too).

 

As Tom Kelly said in defense of having Straker on the playoff roster in 87, Rincon and Romero were two guys who helped get them there.

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#64 spycake

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:49 AM

 

Ok, it looks like it's almost unanimous that Diaz blundered on the send.I agree. But his call was in the heat of the moment and mistakes happen, so I give him a begrudging pass.But I'm wondering if anyone else here was at the game, and if so, why Tommy Watkins isn't being criticized too.With the shift on, Cleveland's first baseman was 25 feet off the bag.But for some unexplainable reason, Adrianza's lead on every pitch during Gonzalez's AB was only about half that.My group of four was screaming at Ehire to get a more aggressive lead, but we were in the third base boxes and the crowd was loud, so he stayed with his insufficient lead.If Adrianza had been properly leading off with the first baseman so far off the bag, he likely scores on the double even with the Tribe playing perfect defense...especially with the very high bounce the ball took off the fence. Shame on Ehire for not reading the situation better, and shame on Tommy Watkins for not doing his job.The first base coach is responsible for almost nothing except monitoring the baserunner's lead, and instead of doing that he is facing Gonzalez and clapping for him.  

 

Yes, Diaz made a bad call, but Watkins and Ehire's blunder is equally at fault for this loss. 

 

Looking at the replay, I wonder if Naquin should have been playing deeper, so he could have had a play on that ball? It wasn't a high fly, but it was far from a line drive either, and it bounced before the wall. As you note, the runner on first was so important, Cleveland should have been playing its best "no doubles" defense, and Marwin was batting RH and Hand was consistently pitching him inside, so it would make sense to have the left fielder playing as deep as possible, to be able to make a play on exactly this type of hit behind him.

 

A lot of factors involved! I totally understand the criticism of the send with only 1 out and the game already tied, but we were sure battering them around that inning -- it was frankly a bit surprising that all of Naquin, Lindor, and the catcher made solid plays.


#65 Doomtints

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:50 AM

 

 

Honest question- why does everyone talk about this "window" opening? My comment is not aimed at this particular post/author, a number of people are talking about it. 

 

Schoop, Cron, Cruz, Perez, Odorizzi, Pineda and Castro could all be gone after this season (Cruz and Cron will likely re-sign, but they aren't young cornerstones).

 

Polanco started hot, now is trailing off. Berrios is trending in the wrong direction. Buxton can't stay on the field. Sano is a crapshoot from game-to-game. 

 

Sure, all of Graterol, Alcala, Balazovic, Kiriloff, Larnach etc could all pan out and we could have a great team, but it's not likely. 

 

This was the year, all the stuff the FO threw at the wall offensively worked better than they could have imagined, and they needed arms. They chose not to do anything at all during the offseason, then whined that the price was too high at the deadline. 

 

I guess I don't fully understand the narrative that this team has a ton of pieces in place to be some sort of great team for the next decade. 

 

True, but remember Gardenhire kept getting the team into the playoffs in spite of rapid roster turnover like this. Of course, those teams played defense....

 

I think this team is on the cusp of putting together a few good years. Next year could be a step back, but the year after won't. Players clearly like Baldelli and for a rookie manager he has not made as many mistakes as one might expect.

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#66 spycake

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:04 AM

 

As Tom Kelly said in defense of having Straker on the playoff roster in 87, Rincon and Romero were two guys who helped get them there.

The Straker comment makes sense -- we needed a third starter, and he was clearly the only viable starter beyond our top 2 that season.

 

But Hawkins had the top game-entering leverage index on the staff in 2003. Pitching him in a tight spot in the 7th inning, even after pitching the day before, certainly "helped get them there" more than Rincon and his average leverage index that season. (Rincon wound up walking 4 Yankees in his 2.1 lower leverage innings anyway, so I sort of doubt he would have fared much better in Latroy's spot in game 2.)

 

Romero's leverage index was higher than Rincon's, but of course he was a lefty specialist -- bringing him in to face Soriano and then Jeter with a runner in scoring position and only 1 out was certainly not part of what "helped get them there". (FWIW, Romero came on after Hawkins in game 2 and gave up a single anyway, to a LHB no less, an outcome which would have lost the game just the same.)


#67 Doomtints

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:06 AM

I don't think it's fair to call Romero a lefty specialist. Both him and Rincon were the best setup pitchers I ever saw in a Twins uniform. Seeing them come up to pitch the 8th was almost always a good sign.

 

Though, yes, I think they were both juicing....

Edited by Doomtints, 12 August 2019 - 09:06 AM.

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#68 spycake

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:25 AM

 

I don't think it's fair to call Romero a lefty specialist. Both him and Rincon were the best setup pitchers I ever saw in a Twins uniform. Seeing them come up to pitch the 8th was almost always a good sign.

No one was saying that in October 2003. Romero had just been battered to the tune of a .929 OPS vs RHB that season, on his way to a 5.00 ERA, and Rincon turned in a pedestrian 3.68 ERA with 4.0 BB/9 and only 6.6 K/9 in average leverage use, in his best MLB season to date.

 

2002 Romero was great, as was 2004 Rincon, but Gardy turning to them in that spot in 2003 would have been like TK going with Smithson or Portugal over Straker in the 1987 postseason.


#69 SpicyGarvSauce

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:32 AM

Are we sure Scottie Ullger didn't take over coaching 3rd base in that 9th inning?


#70 Mahoning

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:38 AM

The weekend series clarified things for the Twins. Cleveland is the better team because of its superior pitching. It lost three starters -- Kluber, Carrasco, and Bauer -- and got better in the process. (Imagine if the Twins had lost three starters.)

 

The Twins are likely to be a wild card team and rather quickly ousted. The clarity achieved is this: A big upgrade in starting pitching is needed for next season. 

 

And let us remember to put all this in context: The Twins are 24 games over .500 and right now we're all kind of disappointed.

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#71 Doomtints

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:41 AM

 

The Twins are likely to be a wild card team and rather quickly ousted. The clarity achieved is this: A big upgrade in starting pitching is needed for next season.

 

If Houston gets the top seed, a wildcard berth is the best scenario for the Twins.

 

If the Yankees get the top seed, which suddenly seems very possible, then the Twins had better take care of the division.

Edited by Doomtints, 12 August 2019 - 09:42 AM.

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#72 Battle ur tail off

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:59 AM

 

 

I think this team is on the cusp of putting together a few good years. Next year could be a step back, but the year after won't. Players clearly like Baldelli and for a rookie manager he has not made as many mistakes as one might expect.

 

So, what makes you think that next year is a step back and the year after won't be?

 

The pitching coming up? Because as of now, our minor leagues has produced Berrios and that's about it really. You know they won't trade for anyone, or buy a good starter, right? I think this year was the year and their chance. Do I think we could still be good for a few years? Heck yeah, they should be. But I don't think you will have this kind of offense again, maybe ever. Realize, what the Twins are doing this year with the bat is historic for this franchise. 

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#73 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 10:15 AM

If Houston gets the top seed, a wildcard berth is the best scenario for the Twins.
 
If the Yankees get the top seed, which suddenly seems very possible, then the Twins had better take care of the division.

You keep saying this. I think the Twins match up much better against the Yankees than the Astros. At least as far as the Twins batters vs the opponents pitching.
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#74 twinsnorth49

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 10:25 AM

The weekend series clarified things for the Twins. Cleveland is the better team because of its superior pitching. It lost three starters -- Kluber, Carrasco, and Bauer -- and got better in the process. (Imagine if the Twins had lost three starters.)

The Twins are likely to be a wild card team and rather quickly ousted. The clarity achieved is this: A big upgrade in starting pitching is needed for next season.

And let us remember to put all this in context: The Twins are 24 games over .500 and right now we're all kind of disappointed.


I’m not disappointed. The Twins have exceeded my expectations this season and I’ll continue to enjoy the ride. There is some disappointment in the pitching staff not being bolstered before the deadline but anyone who thought this team would be 24 games over .500 and in the midst of a pennant race, is not being very honest with themselves.

The things that were a concern for this team during the off season are still there, most of us went into the season expected those problems to effect the performance of the team, and right now they are. The bats went crazy and the team hit homeruns at a record pace and we all got fat and sassy about it. Now, because the old reality has crept back in, the entitlement around here is pretty interesting to watch.

I’m going to just see what happens, life is too short to piss and moan everyday.
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#75 howeda7

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 10:28 AM

 

Actually it’s about 65-70% likely that they score a run with runners on second and third with one out. The average run expectancy with that situation is 1.4 runs.

Perhaps, but that assumes an average player was up next and not Jonathon "Clutch" Schoop. There is an 80% chance he would have struck out or popped up.

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#76 yarnivek1972

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 11:00 AM

With 2 outs, I have absolutely zero problems with Diaz sending Adrianza there. The only issue I have was that there was just 1 out.

That said, you all can blame Diaz all you want. I personally blame yesterday's loss on Taylor Rogers. He's been great this year, and maybe he was over-worked, but if you give up 4 runs in 1/3 of an inning in a huge game, you failed. An absolutely dud of an effort by Rogers, who deservedly got the loss.


Really??

You’re going to lay blame on a guy who was brought in less than 18 hours after throwing 30 plus extremely high leverage pitches?

REALLY?

Maybe assign some blame to those responsible for the team being forced to do that.
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#77 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 11:01 AM

Ok, it looks like it's almost unanimous that Diaz blundered on the send. I agree. But his call was in the heat of the moment and mistakes happen, so I give him a begrudging pass. But I'm wondering if anyone else here was at the game, and if so, why Tommy Watkins isn't being criticized too. With the shift on, Cleveland's first baseman was 25 feet off the bag. But for some unexplainable reason, Adrianza's lead on every pitch during Gonzalez's AB was only about half that. My group of four was screaming at Ehire to get a more aggressive lead, but we were in the third base boxes and the crowd was loud, so he stayed with his insufficient lead. If Adrianza had been properly leading off with the first baseman so far off the bag, he likely scores on the double even with the Tribe playing perfect defense...especially with the very high bounce the ball took off the fence. Shame on Ehire for not reading the situation better, and shame on Tommy Watkins for not doing his job. The first base coach is responsible for almost nothing except monitoring the baserunner's lead, and instead of doing that he is facing Gonzalez and clapping for him.

Yes, Diaz made a bad call, but Watkins and Ehire's blunder is equally at fault for this loss.


How is another 10 foot lead going to prevent him from being thrown out by 40 feet? He'd have just been out by 30 feet instead.
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#78 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 11:02 AM

Honest question- why does everyone talk about this "window" opening? My comment is not aimed at this particular post/author, a number of people are talking about it.

Schoop, Cron, Cruz, Perez, Odorizzi, Pineda and Castro could all be gone after this season (Cruz and Cron will likely re-sign, but they aren't young cornerstones).

Polanco started hot, now is trailing off. Berrios is trending in the wrong direction. Buxton can't stay on the field. Sano is a crapshoot from game-to-game.

Sure, all of Graterol, Alcala, Balazovic, Kiriloff, Larnach etc could all pan out and we could have a great team, but it's not likely.

This was the year, all the stuff the FO threw at the wall offensively worked better than they could have imagined, and they needed arms. They chose not to do anything at all during the offseason, then whined that the price was too high at the deadline.

I guess I don't fully understand the narrative that this team has a ton of pieces in place to be some sort of great team for the next decade.


Cruz is under team control for 2020, as is Cron.

#79 ashbury

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 11:05 AM

but anyone who thought this team would be 24 games over .500 and in the midst of a pennant race, is not being very honest with themselves.

That is fine, in March, but as the results actually unfolded, I was expecting more of a pivot by the FO in July.

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#80 Doomtints

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 11:06 AM

 

So, what makes you think that next year is a step back and the year after won't be?

 

The pitching coming up? Because as of now, our minor leagues has produced Berrios and that's about it really. You know they won't trade for anyone, or buy a good starter, right? I think this year was the year and their chance. Do I think we could still be good for a few years? Heck yeah, they should be. But I don't think you will have this kind of offense again, maybe ever. Realize, what the Twins are doing this year with the bat is historic for this franchise. 

 

Yes, I think it might take more than one year to get the pitching in order unless the Twins very uncharacteristically open their wallets.

 

If the Twins had addressed the bullpen this year, they would only have to address the starting pitching next year. However, the Twins neglected to do that and will now have to address both.

 

The Twins showed they can win without Sano, so he could be a nice trade chip.

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