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#21 Dantes929

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 07:15 AM

 

I'm betting $5 that Graterol makes a greater impact to this Twins bullpen than Sam Dyson. #KindaHotTakes

This reminds me of when I am golfing and say I am sick of bogies only to start making double and triple bogies.Dyson has already had a pretty big impact, just not the kind we wanted.I digress. From the point both are healthy and saying greater impact in a positive way, I would take that bet.Dyson has a two year history of being a really good reliever.  

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#22 JW24

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 08:09 AM

 

Can Graterol throw strikes without throwing the ball down the middle? I, for one, think that's important. 

If you throw 100, it doesn't much matter where the ball comes across the strike zone. Location is overrated for a 1-inning guy; just don't walk guys and any trouble you get in will be minimal.

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#23 twins1095

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 08:17 AM

 

This reminds me of when I am golfing and say I am sick of bogies only to start making double and triple bogies.Dyson has already had a pretty big impact, just not the kind we wanted.I digress. From the point both are healthy and saying greater impact in a positive way, I would take that bet.Dyson has a two year history of being a really good reliever.  

 

Dyson has an entire career history of being a good reliever sandwiched around 1 year, really a month long stretch, where he absolutely lost it.

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#24 spycake

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 08:46 AM

 

Dyson has an entire career history of being a good reliever sandwiched around 1 year, really a month long stretch, where he absolutely lost it.

Dyson had two poor months with the Rangers to begin 2017 (April and May), and his time with the Giants that year was better but not really very impressive -- 4.03 ERA, 4.08 FIP, only 6.4 K/9. I'm comfortable saying his entire 2017 season was sub-par. (His 2015 with the Marlins was pretty mediocre too, especially considering his relatively low leverage use.)

 

But otherwise, you are correct -- Dyson had excellent, high-leverage seasons in 2015 after he left the Marlins, 2016, 2018, and 2019 (before coming to the Twins :( ). That's more like 3 seasons of really good performance.

Edited by spycake, 08 August 2019 - 08:47 AM.

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#25 Mike Sixel

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:06 AM

This reminds me of when I am golfing and say I am sick of bogies only to start making double and triple bogies. Dyson has already had a pretty big impact, just not the kind we wanted. I digress. From the point both are healthy and saying greater impact in a positive way, I would take that bet. Dyson has a two year history of being a really good reliever.


I was just having that golf talk with myself. Turned out the same....

I don't get the angst here at all. Plenty of young players are making impacts around the league. Pitchers get hurt, get them up when they are healthy and throwing hard. If the FO thinks they can help, who cares how old they are?
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#26 twins1095

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:10 AM

Pre-2014 - Minors

 

2014 - 2.14 era / 3.16 FIP

 

2015 - 2.63 ERA / 2.94 FIP

 

2016 - 2.43 ERA/ 3.6 FIP (3.45 xFIP)

 

2017 - 10.80 ERA in 16.2 innings / 4.03 ERA in 38 innings (ballooned by 3 bad outings in which he allowed 10 runs) he had a 2.95 ERA before allowing 5 runs in his last 2 outings of the season.  

 

2018 - 2.69 ERA /3.4 FIP

 

2019 (pre Twins) - 2.47 ERA in 51 innings

 

He's largely been really good and I'd bet that he will continue to be good.

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#27 by jiminy

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:15 AM

 

Quite a plan when your brilliant FO has to rely on 20 year olds to win a pennant

Actually I do think it's a smart plan. Many, many people were howling for them to trade guys like Graterol for bullpen help. They took a lot of heat for refusing. I'm glad they held out. Graterol might contribute more to the bullpen THIS YEAR than a trade target like Dyson. But if we'd shown we were serious about winning now, we'd either lose that reliever next year, or pay him a market rate salary, completely offsetting the chance to hire a similar reliever for the same salary as a free agent. Instead, we have six years of cost-controlled pitching from a guy who already touches 100mph at age 20 and could be part of a playoff-quality rotation for years to come. I'll take that trade any day. Or in this case, that non-trade.I'm hoping to see Graterol in the pen this year for the pennant run and playoffs, and in the rotation with Balazovic and Duran two or three years from now. In the meantime, rookie relievers often start really strong and can be difference makers in the playoffs. Not a sure thing obviously but neither is Dyson, or Greene, etc.

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#28 70charger

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:15 AM

 

Quite a plan when your brilliant FO has to rely on 20 year olds to win a pennant

 

Kinda depends on who that 20 year old is, doesn't it?

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#29 Dantes929

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:33 AM

 

Kinda depends on who that 20 year old is, doesn't it?

Exactly. If you are relying on Shawn Mendes then you might want to rethink your plan...... Sadly I had to google famous 20 year olds and didn't recognize a single name on the list.On second thought, maybe not so sad.

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#30 spanman2

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:40 AM

 

Can Graterol throw strikes without throwing the ball down the middle? I, for one, think that's important. 

Quality control within the strike zone is certainly important.Good point!

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#31 Dantes929

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:41 AM

 

Actually I do think it's a smart plan. Many, many people were howling for them to trade guys like Graterol for bullpen help. They took a lot of heat for refusing. I'm glad they held out. Graterol might contribute more to the bullpen THIS YEAR than a trade target like Dyson. But if we'd shown we were serious about winning now, we'd either lose that reliever next year, or pay him a market rate salary, completely offsetting the chance to hire a similar reliever for the same salary as a free agent. Instead, we have six years of cost-controlled pitching from a guy who already touches 100mph at age 20 and could be part of a playoff-quality rotation for years to come. I'll take that trade any day. Or in this case, that non-trade.I'm hoping to see Graterol in the pen this year for the pennant run and playoffs, and in the rotation with Balazovic and Duran two or three years from now. In the meantime, rookie relievers often start really strong and can be difference makers in the playoffs. Not a sure thing obviously but neither is Dyson, or Greene, etc.

Just talking about the possible trades, I speculated that the Mets fans probably didn't want to trade Thor unless the return was astronomical because they just picked up Stroman and had a rotation of Thor, Stroman and DeGrom for next year and were not out of it for this year. Well, as of today they are .5 games out of the wild card. I think management kind of felt that way also and once they had Stroman were never really serious about trading Thor.  

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#32 jimbo92107

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:52 AM

 

If you throw 100, it doesn't much matter where the ball comes across the strike zone. Location is overrated for a 1-inning guy; just don't walk guys and any trouble you get in will be minimal.

I will grant that 100 mph will beat some guys no matter where in the zone it goes. However, there are also guys that can time a 100 mph heater and rifle it right back where it came from, or over the fence. Even a guy like Aroldis Chapman needs enough command to avoid the middle of the zone. Velocity by itself does not get it done. 

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#33 jkcarew

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 10:00 AM

Two options are to either continue his development as a starter by building him back up in the minors....or, immediately (more or less) bringing him up to be a reliever or 'opener'.

 

I say bring him up, and see what happens. He can be converted back to a starter for a future season (not that I think that's likely).

Edited by jkcarew, 08 August 2019 - 10:01 AM.


#34 twins1095

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 10:04 AM

 

Actually I do think it's a smart plan. Many, many people were howling for them to trade guys like Graterol for bullpen help. They took a lot of heat for refusing. I'm glad they held out. Graterol might contribute more to the bullpen THIS YEAR than a trade target like Dyson. But if we'd shown we were serious about winning now, we'd either lose that reliever next year, or pay him a market rate salary, completely offsetting the chance to hire a similar reliever for the same salary as a free agent. Instead, we have six years of cost-controlled pitching from a guy who already touches 100mph at age 20 and could be part of a playoff-quality rotation for years to come. I'll take that trade any day. Or in this case, that non-trade.I'm hoping to see Graterol in the pen this year for the pennant run and playoffs, and in the rotation with Balazovic and Duran two or three years from now. In the meantime, rookie relievers often start really strong and can be difference makers in the playoffs. Not a sure thing obviously but neither is Dyson, or Greene, etc.

 

Also there's the whole thing with pitchers about the clock that quickly ticks down in terms of maintaining velocity and/or avoiding arm injuries and staying healthy. Only so many bullets in the chamber.I think with pitchers it's important to be more aggressive than less, especially if you can bring them up for the last month as a reliever...sheltering them a little bit...getting them good exposure in a way that can potentially help the team.  

 

It's actually smart baseball and it's been done by many good and successful playoff teams.


#35 JW24

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 10:33 AM

 

I will grant that 100 mph will beat some guys no matter where in the zone it goes. However, there are also guys that can time a 100 mph heater and rifle it right back where it came from, or over the fence. Even a guy like Aroldis Chapman needs enough command to avoid the middle of the zone. Velocity by itself does not get it done. 

Chapman is able to pair his fastball with a pretty good slider to keep hitters honest and prevent them from trying to time his fastball. Chapman also has a fairly high career walk rate, so it isn't like he is a guy that spots his pitches. Elite velocity plays well just about anywhere in the zone.

 

If Graterol can mix in his secondary stuff for strikes, he will be great. Should he get called up (fingers crossed!) I would rather see him get hit a little because he is throwing strikes than put guys on for free.

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#36 Linus

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 02:58 PM

Kinda depends on who that 20 year old is, doesn't it?


The point is that if we are calling up unproven prospects fromAA as our go to plan then someone screwed up both last winter and at the trade deadline. I hope Graterol is the next Nolan Ryan but it wouldn’t be Plan A for me

#37 Darius

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 03:08 PM

I can see him coming handy as a long-man in the playoffs.

If a starter gets pounded early, he could come in for a few and bridge the gap the Duffey/May-Romo-Rogers. That Atlanta series was a great example. This team will score eventually. You’re not out of a game being down 4-5 runs. But, too often those game are punted and the starter is thrown to the wolves, guys get pulled, moves that should happen don’t (pinch hitting Arraez for Schoop with runners on 2nd and 3rd). Throw a guy like Graterol at them for 3-4 innings and you may just get back into the game.

#38 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 03:35 PM

The point is that if we are calling up unproven prospects fromAA as our go to plan then someone screwed up both last winter and at the trade deadline. I hope Graterol is the next Nolan Ryan but it wouldn’t be Plan A for me


Graterol isn't plan A though.
Romo and Dyson were plan A.

#39 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 03:36 PM

I can see him coming handy as a long-man in the playoffs.

If a starter gets pounded early, he could come in for a few and bridge the gap the Duffey/May-Romo-Rogers. That Atlanta series was a great example. This team will score eventually. You’re not out of a game being down 4-5 runs. But, too often those game are punted and the starter is thrown to the wolves, guys get pulled, moves that should happen don’t (pinch hitting Arraez for Schoop with runners on 2nd and 3rd). Throw a guy like Graterol at them for 3-4 innings and you may just get back into the game.


If Graterol is good enough to throw 3-4 clean innings though, they shouldn't be wasted in mop up.

#40 Linus

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 04:05 PM

Graterol isn't plan A though.
Romo and Dyson were plan A.


The plan isn’t working and they could have prevented all of this