Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Photo

What Is The Bullpen Strategy?

bullpen
  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 Kanonen80

Kanonen80

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • 15 posts

Posted 25 July 2019 - 10:17 AM

Do we know what they are doing right now? Does the front office? Right now the bullpen is:

  1. Taylor Rogers
  2. Tyler Duffey
  3. Ryne Harper
  4. Trevor May
  5. Cody Stashak
  6. Carlos Torres
  7. Lewis Thorpe
  8. Devin Smeltzer

Half of them are rookies (and/or starting pitchers) or Carlos Torres - which means they are all pretty much supposed to be used in lower leverage situation, one would think.

 

Are they forcing Rocco to use Rogers/Duffey/Harper/May as his go-to guys in close games? Were they just trying to stop him from using Magill/Parker/Morin in high leverage situations? If so, they picked a bad time to hamstring bullpen depth and paid the price.

 

On a positive note, you gotta think this means they are GUARANTEED to be bringing in multiple arms to help in some capacity. While we might be worried they thought Magill and Parker would be 'good enough' down the stretch and in October, I feel pretty confident they don't think the bottom 4 guys in the current 'pen are good enough for a playoff hopeful team in a knife fight for the division title. I'm thinking they are looking to at least add two arms to the bullpen. So maybe down the stretch it would look like:

  1. Taylor Rogers
  2. MLB Veteran Set-up
  3. Trevor May
  4. MLB Veteran LHP
  5. Tyler Duffey
  6. Ryne Harper
  7. Cody Stashak
  8. AAA Express Fresh-arm-man

Not super exciting and would need one of May/Duffey/Harper to go on a run, but would be an improvement over what they've been working with up until this point... Of course, this is assuming Rogers wasn't ruined over the last two series.

 

When they DFA'd the three guys before the Oakland series, but then only replaced them with Stewart and Thorpe, I had a thought that maybe they thought they had a deal in place for some arms, but then something happened at the 11th hour and the deal fell apart. Why else would they DFA those guys and only have AAA SP as replacements? 

Edited by Kanonen80, 25 July 2019 - 10:18 AM.

  • DocBauer likes this

#2 strumdatjaguar

strumdatjaguar

    Ft Myers Miracle

  • Member
  • 322 posts

Posted 25 July 2019 - 10:23 AM

Stashak looked bery good, but probably too soon to give him a place on the list. If they do not add a lefty,add Thorpe and/or Smeltzer to this list.

  • Kanonen80 likes this

#3 JW24

JW24

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • 178 posts

Posted 25 July 2019 - 10:36 AM

I wonder if the Twins are experimenting a bit with the pitching staff construct? None of the Twins starters pitch deep into games consistently. Kyle Gibson is a guy who gets absolutely crushed his 3rd time through a lineup. Odorizzi is good for 6 innings maximum. Berrios (recent 3 starts excluded) and Pineda are the guys consistently getting 18 outs, so this idea does not really apply to them.

 

If the Twins put a limit on Gibson and Odorizzi of 5 innings, and then have Thorpe and Smeltzer as multiple inning guys behind them, does that save the pen at all? If the Twins are only able to add 1 high-caliber relief arm at the deadline, would trying to split a game between a SP and 1 reliever be a feasible solution?

 

I'm not advocating for this, mostly just an idea for discussion.

  • Kanonen80 likes this

#4 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Moderator
  • 22,195 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 25 July 2019 - 11:09 AM

I’m not in the room but I get the impression that they are not setting up their pen in a traditional manner. (For example: Closer-Set Up-Loogy- Long Man).

In your example you are trying to make sense of the bullpen by designating a closer and placing each member into specific roles. I don’t believe the Twins are doing that. I believe they are just collecting arms and utilizing them in whatever role needed.

I believe the first thing needed to be done is to throw out the traditional structure. After you do that, it becomes more obvious... they are simply looking for better arms. Starters, bullpen, wherever they can get them.

If they can land Stroman... this could push Perez into the pen and that doesn’t mean a long man designation. But when Perez goes into the Pen Torres goes away and you’ve improved the rotation and pen with one move.

Trade for a couple of bullpen upgrades after that and now Baldellu has other arms besides Rogers to throw when the game is in doubt. We don’t have to look for a closer specifically because if we trade for Giles he may not be used as a closer exclusively.
  • Kanonen80 and DocBauer like this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#5 Kanonen80

Kanonen80

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • 15 posts

Posted 25 July 2019 - 11:52 AM

I wonder how feasible it is to just bump Perez (or Pineda) to the bullpen. Would they try to use them as a conventional RP at that point? Or would they take the place of Thorpe/Smeltzer of pitching several innings? Because normally 'converted starters' can't work back-to-back right away, right?

 

Wonder if they could have Thorpe/Smeltzer open and pitch once through the order, and then bring in Perez or something like that.


#6 Musk21

Musk21

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 313 posts

Posted 25 July 2019 - 12:07 PM

Who's turn is it in getting called up today? Smeltzer was sent back down after the game last night.

 


#7 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    What's His Velocity?

  • Member
  • 12,822 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 25 July 2019 - 12:16 PM

What's the bullpen strategy?

Currently it's throw **** against the wall and see what sticks.
  • USAFChief, Dman, adorduan and 1 other like this

#8 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Moderator
  • 22,195 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 25 July 2019 - 12:16 PM

 

I wonder how feasible it is to just bump Perez (or Pineda) to the bullpen. Would they try to use them as a conventional RP at that point? Or would they take the place of Thorpe/Smeltzer of pitching several innings? Because normally 'converted starters' can't work back-to-back right away, right?

 

Wonder if they could have Thorpe/Smeltzer open and pitch once through the order, and then bring in Perez or something like that.

 

For example... Brad Peacock of the Astros has jumped back and forth between starting and the pen so this isn't new ground. Mike Montgomery would go back and forth between starting and bullpen. The Dodgers moved Maeda to the pen when all of their starters were healthy. Urias is another Dodgers example of this. So, this isn't new ground... It's just ground that hasn't been traveled on a lot and it's ground the Twins have never traveled on so it will look foreign to the majority of us but the successful precedent has been set. 

 

In my opinion, Perez can be utilized anyway the manager sees fit, if he is converted to a bullpen role... He was a starter so we can thrown him up to 5 innings or we can throw 1 inning back to back... including saving games in the 9th. 

  • Kanonen80 and Danchat like this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#9 stringer bell

stringer bell

    In the Twilight of a Mediocre Career

  • Moderator
  • 9,243 posts
  • LocationElgin, MN

Posted 25 July 2019 - 02:23 PM

Placeholders! Certainly that is the case with Torres. My guess is that he'll be DFAed within the next week. On the "Parker DFAed" thread someone said that for the immediate future (probably yesterday and today), he was a better option that Parker and I would assume he'll be set aside if/when the Twins acquire major league talent at the deadline. 

 

I would guess Stashak will get another shot or two unless he's not needed in the next six days, but he can be optioned. I think two bullpen guys are the minimum needed. Get it done Twins FO!

  • Kanonen80 and DocBauer like this

#10 rv78

rv78

    Cedar Rapids Kernels

  • Member
  • 185 posts

Posted 25 July 2019 - 02:47 PM

Right now the AAA pitchers they are bringing up are pitching as good or better than the arms that were already here. I could care less if they were starters in AAA and are being used out of the pen at the majors. We need guys that can throw strikes and get hitters out. May, Duffey and Parker can't do that consistantly. Harper and Rogers are being over-used. It is WAY PAST TIME to add 2 good quality arms to the pen if the Front O is serious about making a run for it. 

  • 70charger likes this

#11 stringer bell

stringer bell

    In the Twilight of a Mediocre Career

  • Moderator
  • 9,243 posts
  • LocationElgin, MN

Posted 25 July 2019 - 03:25 PM

Each case is a bit different, but Smeltzer and Thorpe are regarded as starters. They gave the team innings when they were needed against the Yankees. Littell appears to be a successful transformation from minor league starter to major league bullpen. We only saw Stashak for two innings, but he might be able to help.

 

What is really needed, though, is experienced major league arms to either close out a game or pitch in high-leverage situations. I don't think anyone in the bullpen other than Rogers is qualified for this and I wouldn't trust a rookie to step into that role.

  • DocBauer likes this

#12 stringer bell

stringer bell

    In the Twilight of a Mediocre Career

  • Moderator
  • 9,243 posts
  • LocationElgin, MN

Posted 25 July 2019 - 04:03 PM

Ideally, I'd like to see a right hander who could either close games or work the eighth to team with Rogers. Add in a lefty who could setup or work the sixth/seventh. Harper/May/Duffey and the guys on the Rochester shuttle could be responsible for the less high-leverage situations. 

 

I think Rogers is most valuable if he isn't locked into finishing games and also I think the Twins definitely need another left handed alternative if they continue to use Rogers in multiple innings. Thy have ample payroll space and room on their 40-man roster. It is time to make a big move!


#13 Doctor Wu

Doctor Wu

    Pensacola Blue Wahoos

  • Member
  • 752 posts

Posted 26 July 2019 - 08:44 AM

 

I wonder how feasible it is to just bump Perez (or Pineda) to the bullpen. Would they try to use them as a conventional RP at that point? Or would they take the place of Thorpe/Smeltzer of pitching several innings? Because normally 'converted starters' can't work back-to-back right away, right?

 

Wonder if they could have Thorpe/Smeltzer open and pitch once through the order, and then bring in Perez or something like that.

I'm not a big fan of "bumping" starting pitchers to the bullpen, for whatever reason. And I doubt the players themselves are too keen on that idea either. Plus, I would think that it would be a difficult adjustment for most pitchers, especially ones that have started for most of their career. I'd rather the Twins reinforce the bullpen at this juncture ....unless we can pry away a quality veteran starter like Bumgarner without giving up a bunch of top prospects.


#14 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Moderator
  • 22,195 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 26 July 2019 - 12:58 PM

I don't really understand the timing of the bullpen departures. I don't disagree with the departures... I just don't understand the timing of them. 

 

Are the young arms here now as possible trade showcases?

 

Is Thorpe (for example) up with the big club so Toronto (for example) can watch him against Major League Hitters?

 

 

Why did we hang on to Morin so long if this was the end result? He was clearly the low leverage guy all year no matter the numbers... we could have called up anyone with growth potential to fill the role that Morin was providing. His numbers were good so there was little chance of improving on them and the manager didn't really want to use him when his numbers were good. He ended up being a waste of a roster spot that could have been awarded to Smeltzer or Thorpe a long time ago.  

 

Does the club feel that Thorpe, Stashek, Torres are simply better than Parker, Mejia, McGill and Morin? They might be but if so... it took way too long to make that determination. 

 

I'm not attacking the moves but expressing these questions on the timing of the moves. 

 

Either way, there is no way the club hitches the playoff hopes and dreams to Thorpe and Stashek and crew.

 

There is little doubt in my mind that an acquisition or two or three or four is gonna happen. If I had to place a bet... I'm thinking a big trade with the Jays is the most likely but who knows.  

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate

 

I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#15 jorgenswest

jorgenswest

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 4,469 posts

Posted 26 July 2019 - 01:35 PM

I don't really understand the timing of the bullpen departures. I don't disagree with the departures... I just don't understand the timing of them.

Are the young arms here now as possible trade showcases?

Is Thorpe (for example) up with the big club so Toronto (for example) can watch him against Major League Hitters?


Why did we hang on to Morin so long if this was the end result? He was clearly the low leverage guy all year no matter the numbers... we could have called up anyone with growth potential to fill the role that Morin was providing. His numbers were good so there was little chance of improving on them and the manager didn't really want to use him when his numbers were good. He ended up being a waste of a roster spot that could have been awarded to Smeltzer or Thorpe a long time ago.

Does the club feel that Thorpe, Stashek, Torres are simply better than Parker, Mejia, McGill and Morin? They might be but if so... it took way too long to make that determination.

I'm not attacking the moves but expressing these questions on the timing of the moves.

Either way, there is no way the club hitches the playoff hopes and dreams to Thorpe and Stashek and crew.

There is little doubt in my mind that an acquisition or two or three or four is gonna happen. If I had to place a bet... I'm thinking a big trade with the Jays is the most likely but who knows.


I would go with the simply better or comparable with options and upside.

I think they made that assessment at the all star break. Coming out of the break we did not see Magill or Morin against the Indians. Duffey and Littell has moved ahead of them. They are now at the bottom of the bullpen and don’t have options. Why wait? Give the opportunity to the AAA pitchers. They have had a long stretch in AAA to develop. It seems like the right time to give them an opportunity as the deadline decisions approach.

I like the moves. The bar for a role in the pen is raised well beyond the Belisle line. Now they have to find a few arms and continue the shuttle.
  • Riverbrian likes this

#16 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Win!!

  • Moderator
  • 11,748 posts

Posted 26 July 2019 - 01:39 PM

The strategy is there appears not to be one.

It's cutting edge.
  • Riverbrian and adorduan like this

#17 Darius

Darius

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,623 posts

Posted 27 July 2019 - 10:12 AM

Reports today that the Twins are kicking the tires on Sergio Romo and Daniel Hudson.

They’re going to half-a@$ this thing and it’s going to cost the team. Neither of those pitchers are any good.

I just don’t understand what they’re waiting for. People talk about the future, but a lot of significant contributors are in short-term deals, and we all know they won’t pay to retain this core beyond arbitration. Also, a number of players will get expensive in arbitration, meaning they’ll be reluctant to supplement to roster to the extent they probably should. The day in the future everyone is waiting when they’ll finally go all-in will never come. We saw it throughout the 00s.

Can we all just admit ownership is cheap? Of course they’d go after these guys (Hudson and Romo). These guys are getting paid almost nothing.

Edited by Darius, 27 July 2019 - 10:14 AM.

  • D.C Twins and Utah Twins Fan like this

#18 jorgenswest

jorgenswest

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 4,469 posts

Posted 27 July 2019 - 11:09 AM

It seems as if the Twins are putting themselves in the rumors for every pitcher. It doesn’t tell us much but that is the point. It doesn’t tell the other teams much either.

#19 mrtwinsfan

mrtwinsfan

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,734 posts

Posted 27 July 2019 - 11:24 AM

Please do not get ROMO


#20 Danchat

Danchat

    Pro Bowl Armchair QB

  • Member
  • 5,150 posts

Posted 27 July 2019 - 11:50 AM

 

Reports today that the Twins are kicking the tires on Sergio Romo and Daniel Hudson.

They’re going to half-a@$ this thing and it’s going to cost the team. Neither of those pitchers are any good.

I just don’t understand what they’re waiting for. People talk about the future, but a lot of significant contributors are in short-term deals, and we all know they won’t pay to retain this core beyond arbitration. Also, a number of players will get expensive in arbitration, meaning they’ll be reluctant to supplement to roster to the extent they probably should. The day in the future everyone is waiting when they’ll finally go all-in will never come. We saw it throughout the 00s.

Can we all just admit ownership is cheap? Of course they’d go after these guys (Hudson and Romo). These guys are getting paid almost nothing.

Are we just going to pretend there aren't rumors about acquiring Syndergaard going around? Are we going to ignore that they've been interested in Stroman & Giles too?

 

It's pretty clear that the Twins are casting a wide net and looking at all of the options available to them. Romo would be a pretty disappointing acquisition, but I think Hudson would be a fine 6th/7th inning guy, as long as he isn't getting forced into situations like Blake Parker was. 

 

If the Twins end up with cheap rentals, I think the blame should be directed at Falvine for hanging on to their prospects too tightly, and not the Pohlads for being cheap. Do you really think the Pohlads are thinking "oh no, we might have to give Marcus Stroman $11-12M in 2020, we can't make that trade!"? IMO the only pitcher the Pohlads wouldn't let them get is Zack Greinke, and it doesn't sound like the D-Backs want to trade him in the first place.

Check out my work at Purple Pain, a Vikings forum: 

Analyzing the Past Decade of Vikings Offseasons




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: bullpen