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#21 yarnivek1972

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 05:58 PM

Mauer took the first pitch almost always. As a result, the pitcher almost always threw the first pitch down the middle for a strike. To me, that had to be the stupidest strategy that I have ever seen any MLB player take in the history of the game. Had Mauer swung at first pitches, there's no question he would have gotten at least 500 more hits in his career. To the other poster, there is no way that Mauer gets in the Hall of Fame. A Hall of Fame player is a generational player, not a player that dominates for 4 or 5 years. If Mauer gets in, then the Hall of Fame is a joke.

Generational players like

https://www.baseball...ferreri01.shtml


PS: Mauer put the first pitch in play in almost 400 plate appearances. That’s not counting times he swung and missed or hit a foul ball.

And suggesting that Mauer would have gotten “at least” 500 more hits swinging at the first pitch is just absurd. Pitchers and coaches make adjustments. Mauer hit over .300 for his career with a 124 OPS+. Hall of Famer Derek Jeter had a 115 OPS +. Hall of Famer Johnny Bench had a 126 OPS +.

Edited by yarnivek1972, 21 July 2019 - 06:08 PM.

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#22 Number3

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 07:32 AM

"At least Sano is looking like he wants to attempt real baseball. Excellent approach at the plate tonight for him."

 

I know this was about Saturday's game which the Twins lost. In the game yesterday Sano was 0-5 with 6 lob and 2 ks.

 

As far as Mauer in the HOF, Max Kepler has already had more walk-offs and "difference maker" games than Mauer ever dreamed about.

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#23 SwainZag

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 07:45 AM

 

"At least Sano is looking like he wants to attempt real baseball. Excellent approach at the plate tonight for him."

 

I know this was about Saturday's game which the Twins lost. In the game yesterday Sano was 0-5 with 6 lob and 2 ks.

 

As far as Mauer in the HOF, Max Kepler has already had more walk-offs and "difference maker" games than Mauer ever dreamed about.

 

Max might have more walk offs, but difference maker games?JFC people have short memories around here.

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#24 twinsnorth49

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 08:02 AM

 

Mauer took the first pitch almost always. As a result, the pitcher almost always threw the first pitch down the middle for a strike. To me, that had to be the stupidest strategy that I have ever seen any MLB player take in the history of the game. Had Mauer swung at first pitches, there's no question he would have gotten at least 500 more hits in his career. To the other poster, there is no way that Mauer gets in the Hall of Fame. A Hall of Fame player is a generational player, not a player that dominates for 4 or 5 years. If Mauer gets in, then the Hall of Fame is a joke. 

Harold Baines "Generational Player". 

 

 

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#25 KFEY93

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 08:19 AM

 

The A's were very tough last night and took some extended plate appearances. But, here's how things shake out over the entire series so far:

 

OAK: 422 pitches to 110 batters (3.836/batter faced)

MIN: 456 pitches to 119 batters (3.832/batter faced)

Lets take a different approach at this. Lets get the numbers from our first full series in June. ( not the TB one) up until this past Sunday and look. Because from there the As and Cleveland have been improving and the Twins and been declining. Im curious how those numbers look since then. 


#26 Dman

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 08:57 AM

Baseball is a bit of chess match for pitcher and hitter.The pitcher wants to get ahead in the count so that they don't have to throw a strike to get strike three.The hitter wants to get ahead so that the pitcher has to throw strikes across the plate.To avoid a pitcher feeling comfortable throwing first pitch strikes you have to swing at first pitch strikes and get hits preferably HR's to keep a pitcher from being too aggressive or you might need to take first pitch strikes that are pitchers pitches and tough to put in play.Both sides are trying to be as unpredictable as possible while achieving the result that benefits them. 

Personally I think the Twins approach is pretty sound, they simply swing at strikes.They generally don't strike out much relative to the rest of the league and they are unpredictable in their swing patterns especially on first pitch strikes.I think as a pitcher you have to be very careful with first pitch strikes against the Twins.They will swing at strikes in the zone no matter what the count is. 

 

I think swinging early in the count realy worked well for this team early in the year but I think that that teams have caught on now and while they are throwing first pitch strikes they are more targeted to a batters weakness.I feel that is somewhat why The Turtle started having a tougher time after being hot to start to the year.He could still hit the ball but by not waiting for a better pitch he made it harder to get hits.

 

I agree long at bats are demoralizing for pitchers and have a tendancy to break pitchers down but it is not easy to have long at bats especially if you are getting good enough contact to put the ball in play.A hitter has to swing at strikes at some point or he is out on strikes.It is a tough game on both sides of the ball.

 

Would I like to Twins hitters be a bit more patient?Yes, yes I would.Would I miss those 1st pitch home runs?Yes, yes I would.I think for the most part I am satisfied with there approach for now.

Edited by Dman, 22 July 2019 - 09:36 AM.


#27 Bandit34

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 11:27 AM

 

Harold Baines "Generational Player". 

For the record, Harold Baines was not a generational player. Really good player, yes. Probably the one hitter in all baseball that I dreaded seeing come up against the Twins. Will Clark, (with the Rangers), and Harold Baines were the two players that I would say, "uh-oh" when they came up to bat against the Twins. But in the end, neither Baines or Clark are Hall of Famers. Mauer simply did not have a legendary career. And legendary is what it OUGHT to take to be a Hall of Famer. 


#28 Bandit34

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 11:28 AM

I should say, "but in the end, Baines SHOULDN'T be a Hall of Famer."

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#29 Bandit34

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 11:31 AM

Just because you play catcher does not mean you should be in the Hall of Fame for hitting 2100 hits and leading not even ONE team to a playoff series victory. Hall of Famers are team leaders. The most memorable playoff moment for Mauer is the double that he hit that was called foul. 


#30 yarnivek1972

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 11:53 AM

Just because you play catcher does not mean you should be in the Hall of Fame for hitting 2100 hits and leading not even ONE team to a playoff series victory. Hall of Famers are team leaders. The most memorable playoff moment for Mauer is the double that he hit that was called foul.


Ernie Banks called for you.
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#31 prouster

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 12:06 PM

The thing about phrases like “real baseball” and “generational player” is that they mean whatever the speaker wants them to mean. They’re imaginary categories that don’t have to correspond to any observable reality.

So, this debate has nowhere to go except in circles. As both statistics and observable reality say, Mauer was a great player. The Twins have been a good team this year. I’m not sure why the aesthetics of all that should matter.
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#32 SwainZag

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 12:24 PM

 

Just because you play catcher does not mean you should be in the Hall of Fame for hitting 2100 hits and leading not even ONE team to a playoff series victory. Hall of Famers are team leaders. The most memorable playoff moment for Mauer is the double that he hit that was called foul. 

 

Mike Trout says what's up.Been in the league for nearly a decade, the best player of this decade and seen the playoffs once and was swept out.Baseball is very much a team sport. You have a disdain for Mauer, so this isn't worth pursuing.  

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#33 twinsnorth49

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 12:29 PM

Just because you play catcher does not mean you should be in the Hall of Fame for hitting 2100 hits and leading not even ONE team to a playoff series victory. Hall of Famers are team leaders. The most memorable playoff moment for Mauer is the double that he hit that was called foul.

I'd say his most memorable moment was being named MVP while accomplishing many firsts for an American League catcher. Your opinion of Mauer is clearly biased and your markers for success are not consistent with many players in the Hall. His 7-8 year peak period is definitely HOF worthy, quite easily.
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#34 ashbury

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 01:50 PM

I should say, "but in the end, Baines SHOULDN'T be a Hall of Famer."

Yeah, before you get a ton of replies like this. :)

 

EP-190729880.jpg

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#35 Only Here in Negative

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 02:42 PM

 

"At least Sano is looking like he wants to attempt real baseball. Excellent approach at the plate tonight for him."

 

I know this was about Saturday's game which the Twins lost. In the game yesterday Sano was 0-5 with 6 lob and 2 ks.

 

As far as Mauer in the HOF, Max Kepler has already had more walk-offs and "difference maker" games than Mauer ever dreamed about.

 

Oh! Now I know why Scott Brosius is in the Hall of Fame! We decide it based on walk-offs!

 

Baseball is a team game. Mauer's TEAMS underperformed in the playoffs. Ernie Banks never even made the playoffs.


#36 Only Here in Negative

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 02:49 PM

 

Mauer took the first pitch almost always. As a result, the pitcher almost always threw the first pitch down the middle for a strike. To me, that had to be the stupidest strategy that I have ever seen any MLB player take in the history of the game. Had Mauer swung at first pitches, there's no question he would have gotten at least 500 more hits in his career. To the other poster, there is no way that Mauer gets in the Hall of Fame. A Hall of Fame player is a generational player, not a player that dominates for 4 or 5 years. If Mauer gets in, then the Hall of Fame is a joke. 

 

Mauer took the first pitch almost always. As a result, the pitcher almost always threw the first pitch down the middle for a strike. To me, that had to be the stupidest strategy that I have ever seen any MLB player take in the history of the game. Had Mauer swung at first pitches, there's no question he would have gotten at least 500 more hits in his career. To the other poster, there is no way that Mauer gets in the Hall of Fame. A Hall of Fame player is a generational player, not a player that dominates for 4 or 5 years. If Mauer gets in, then the Hall of Fame is a joke. 

 

Mauer's career first pitch strike percentage was 55.4%. The MLB average is around 57%. So contrary to your completely made up stance, even though Mauer only swung at a first pitch 9.6% of the time (compared to a league average of 27.6%), pitchers still threw him balls on the first pitch at an above average rate.

 

Does it bother you that you posit theories that are so easily shot down by anyone who bothers to actually look it up? Like Tom destroyed your "The Twins don't take enough pitches" theory and so you pivoted to Mauer and it turns out that's made up too. Does it bother you? Does it make you pause and think about your approach to life and this site? Or is it just full speed ahead? Honestly interested. I've been called out on here before and slunk off with my tail between my legs. It seemed like the natural response but maybe not?

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#37 Only Here in Negative

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 02:53 PM

 

Lets take a different approach at this. Lets get the numbers from our first full series in June. ( not the TB one) up until this past Sunday and look. Because from there the As and Cleveland have been improving and the Twins and been declining. Im curious how those numbers look since then. 

 

Perhaps you should look them up rather than just being curious?

 

I imagine they're not much different. This argument never made any sense. It reminds me of my college roommate's father. Every time they played games he'd keep track of rolls to show how the dice were favoring or not favoring him. Only issue was he routinely forgot to mark when they were in his favor. So every game the dice were against him.

 

Moral: If you saw something in three games over a weekend and then extrapolate this to a definitive statement about the whole season, you're probably going to be spewing biased nonsense.


#38 Only Here in Negative

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 02:57 PM

 

I'd say his most memorable moment was being named MVP while accomplishing many firsts for an American League catcher. Your opinion of Mauer is clearly biased and your markers for success are not consistent with many players in the Hall. His 7-8 year peak period is definitely HOF worthy, quite easily.

 

Agreed. Not first ballot but I think he gets in Year 3 or 4. The lack of a clearly superior catcher during his playing career helps. Posey looked like he might be better and take some of the shine off Mauer but he's faced his own injury issues. Yadier Molina is likely better all around due to his longevity but that's really it for catcher comparisons (and even then it's a fun debate: Molina's durability vs. Mauer's peak).

 

Mauer will get in. Hopefully the haters have the decency to quietly disagree. Probably not. Sigh.

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#39 tarheeltwinsfan

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 03:13 PM

 

Wrongly, I might add. It's just a wonder that so many teams did not catch on to that. If the history of baseball has proven anything it is that being patient and being able to make a pitcher really, really work for every single out is the tried and true approach to good, fundamental hitting.

Where's Joe Mauer when we need him?


#40 KFEY93

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Posted 22 July 2019 - 03:26 PM

 

Perhaps you should look them up rather than just being curious?

 

I imagine they're not much different. This argument never made any sense. It reminds me of my college roommate's father. Every time they played games he'd keep track of rolls to show how the dice were favoring or not favoring him. Only issue was he routinely forgot to mark when they were in his favor. So every game the dice were against him.

 

Moral: If you saw something in three games over a weekend and then extrapolate this to a definitive statement about the whole season, you're probably going to be spewing biased nonsense.

This is not a one weekend observation friend. This is getting close to a two month observation and downfall. Their record since my time stated shows that. I no longer care about April and May. Its what have you done for me lately? Lately we've been playing like a bottom of the league team and im worried that that is going to become the norm. That dice analogy holds no relevance to what I am asking for.