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Article: Twins Game Recap (7/18): Rosario Ignites Late-Inning Comeback

eddie rosario kyle gibson taylor rogers mitch garver c.j. cron
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#21 rdehring

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 07:40 AM

Eddie, Eddie, Eddie.Now maybe the team will get their "swagger" back and clean up some of those mental errors.


#22 USAFChief

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 07:43 AM

 

I'm sorry but no way that Cave being doubled off on Kepler's smash is a baserunning error. With the normal lead he's taking and the momentum towards home on the pitch so as to be ready to score on a wild pitch, there's no way he's going to get back before Olson throws the ball to third. I have no issue with him breaking for home on that one - if you're not getting back you might as well score in case the ball hit the ground.

 

That's some insane nitpicking.

I disagree.

 

Even if the contact play is on, which I have zero problem with, that's on a ground ball. If the ball is in the air, your first step is always back towards third. The line drive was caught at first, not third, an entire infield away. There's no way to excuse getting picked off third on a ball caught at first. None. 

 

Fundamentals. That, plus the Arraez gaffe, cost the Twins two runners in scoring position. There's been a lot of that. Both of them were inexcusable, IYAM.

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#23 Only Here in Negative

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 07:57 AM

What are you talking about? Guys get picked off on that play all the time. I can remember (but not specifically) the Twins doing it twice this year. It's one thing to say a guy should be more cautious but to say that there's no excuse is laughably ignorant of actual baseball.

 

Taking a normal lead and then moving another 2-3 steps towards home with the pitch means that Kepler is likely 5-6 steps from the bag. That was a hard smash and Olson was immediately up and throwing. An entire infield away is like 125 feet. MLB players make that throw in an instant. Kep had no chance.

 

Ironically, the only people in the league who aren't doubled off on that are probably your pitchers and slow plodders who don't take much of a lead because they aren't going home on anything but the most obvious wild pitch anyway. Any player with any speed at all is too far from the bag. That's just bad luck.

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#24 wsnydes

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:07 AM

 

I disagree.

 

Even if the contact play is on, which I have zero problem with, that's on a ground ball. If the ball is in the air, your first step is always back towards third. The line drive was caught at first, not third, an entire infield away. There's no way to excuse getting picked off third on a ball caught at first. None. 

 

Fundamentals. That, plus the Arraez gaffe, cost the Twins two runners in scoring position. There's been a lot of that. Both of them were inexcusable, IYAM.

I could understand getting doubled off if it were a close play at the bag, but he didn't even make a move back to the bag. That's the part I didn't like. That play didn't develop that fast and that wasn't a strong throw to 3B. Cave was still halfway down the line when the ball was caught at 3B.

Edited by wsnydes, 19 July 2019 - 09:04 AM.

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#25 USAFChief

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:12 AM

 

What are you talking about? Guys get picked off on that play all the time. I can remember (but not specifically) the Twins doing it twice this year. It's one thing to say a guy should be more cautious but to say that there's no excuse is laughably ignorant of actual baseball.

 

Taking a normal lead and then moving another 2-3 steps towards home with the pitch means that Kepler is likely 5-6 steps from the bag. That was a hard smash and Olson was immediately up and throwing. An entire infield away is like 125 feet. MLB players make that throw in an instant. Kep had no chance.

 

Ironically, the only people in the league who aren't doubled off on that are probably your pitchers and slow plodders who don't take much of a lead because they aren't going home on anything but the most obvious wild pitch anyway. Any player with any speed at all is too far from the bag. That's just bad luck.

guys get doubled off third on line drives to first all the time?

 

Again, I disagree.

 

And as pointed out above, it wasn't even a strong throw to third, Olson threw from his backside. Cave just screwed up. It shouldn't have happened. Much like the play recently where Buxton got caught tagging and going to third on a fly ball to center, costing the Twins a run (and ultimately the game), I'm quite positive if you could privately ask the player (in this case Cave, not Kep), he'd say, "yeah, I know. Bad play on my part. Won't happen again."

 

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#26 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:15 AM

I can’t blame Arraez getting picked off in the fifth inning. It happens. Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does. It was looking like a wild pitch—the ball actually got past the catcher—but then took a funny hop off the umpire and stayed near the plate. Arraez was kind of hung out to dry.. and then maybe tried to do a little acting to save face?

Also Cave needs to do two things: not step out of the batters box when offering at the pitch, and then just let the pitch hit your leg.

These things are going to happen to all teams.

#27 stringer bell

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:16 AM

Eye test—Sanó doesn’t have great hands, he is more prone to clanks than the average 3B. His reactions are fine and he has a really strong arm, but that doesn’t make up for his hands. He hasn’t made many plays on slow rollers this year, part of that is shifting. Finally, he’s not caught a few pop ups most 3Bs corral easily. Lack of foot speed is part of the reason for that.
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#28 MN_ExPat

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:26 AM

What are you talking about? Guys get picked off on that play all the time. I can remember (but not specifically) the Twins doing it twice this year. It's one thing to say a guy should be more cautious but to say that there's no excuse is laughably ignorant of actual baseball.
 
Taking a normal lead and then moving another 2-3 steps towards home with the pitch means that Kepler is likely 5-6 steps from the bag. That was a hard smash and Olson was immediately up and throwing. An entire infield away is like 125 feet. MLB players make that throw in an instant. Kep had no chance.
 
Ironically, the only people in the league who aren't doubled off on that are probably your pitchers and slow plodders who don't take much of a lead because they aren't going home on anything but the most obvious wild pitch anyway. Any player with any speed at all is too far from the bag. That's just bad luck.


You are correct, that was bad luck.

However, players are taught to freeze on hard liners though the infield for just that reason. My son’s high school coach looses his mind when they make mental errors like those (and in case anyone might question, he played professionally has won multiple State Titles and was the National HS Coach of the Year in 2018).
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#29 AceWrigley

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:31 AM

 

These just keep getting more and more silly. Come check out some highlights from a great win and have a laugh with me.

 

Excellent Tom. Eddie the Igniter. That PH at bat he looked like he could hardly wait, "throw the freakin' ball, clown." To Arraez defense, I thought the batter was hit by the pitch too.

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#30 Only Here in Negative

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:34 AM

The ball is by the ground, the runner can't see if the ball bounced or not readily. The reaction is to go home, if he hesitates or goes back and its on the ground, its an out without the runner going. Absolutely handled the right way, no way anyone said "My bad" in the dugout. More like "**** happens"

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#31 PDX Twin

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:38 AM

 

Garver is pretty incredible as well. He’s emerging as a premier player. The guy can hit.
 

 

I remember a lot of us having great debates about Garver vs. Stuart Turner, who was drafted in the same year. 

 

I think the Twins got this one right.Turner's career MLB average is .134 in 37 games with the Reds in 2017. This year he's hitting .163 with the Reds' AAA affiliate.

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#32 Riverbrian

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:42 AM

I completely understand wanting to get the win by using Rogers for another 2 inning save... However, I'm getting a little concerned how much Rocco is using him lately. The Twins really need another reliever who can produce in high leverage situations.


Fully agree that we need additional high leverage options. But I personally don’t worry if Rogers throws 5 innings.

It’s only an issue because we need more high leverage guys.

Which is close to what you are saying... other than the 5 inning part.
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#33 USNMCPO

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:47 AM

 

I completely understand wanting to get the win by using Rogers for another 2 inning save... However, I'm getting a little concerned how much Rocco is using him lately. The Twins really need another reliever who can produce in high leverage situations.

When the Twins went up by 3 in the 8th, I was looking for Rocco to put another reliever in so Rogers could be used next game.

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#34 USAFChief

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:50 AM

 

When the Twins went up by 3 in the 8th, I was looking for Rocco to put another reliever in so Rogers could be used next game.

I was thinking the same thing, but also thinking..."Who else do I trust to get 3 outs with a 3 run lead?"

 

And the answer is "nobody."

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#35 Riverbrian

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:51 AM

guys get doubled off third on line drives to first all the time?

Again, I disagree.

And as pointed out above, it wasn't even a strong throw to third, Olson threw from his backside. Cave just screwed up. It shouldn't have happened. Much like the play recently where Buxton got caught tagging and going to third on a fly ball to center, costing the Twins a run (and ultimately the game), I'm quite positive if you could privately ask the player (in this case Cave, not Kep), he'd say, "yeah, I know. Bad play on my part. Won't happen again."

I’m trying to recall from memory but wasn’t the ball caught close to the ground. If that’s the case, it excusable. Not perfect base running but excusable. But I admit that I don’t know if the contact play was on.

Arraez in the “not hit” by a batter pick off. That’s a teaching moment for the 22 year old. Let the umpire make the call and stop for breakfast as he walks to 3B. If he is advancing on a what he thought was a passed ball... then he got picked plain and simple.
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#36 wsnydes

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:54 AM

 

The ball is by the ground, the runner can't see if the ball bounced or not readily. The reaction is to go home, if he hesitates or goes back and its on the ground, its an out without the runner going. Absolutely handled the right way, no way anyone said "My bad" in the dugout. More like "**** happens"

I guess we had very different coaches. I was always taught to freeze on a line drive. Make sure that it hits the ground or is caught before doing anything. If he hesitates and doesn't score but the out is recorded at first so be it. There's still a runner in scoring position and another batter comes to the plate with another chance to drive him in. If you don't know whether it hit the ground or not, err on the side of caution. Live to fight another day. If that ball was hit to 3B, I'd understand. I don't recall seeing too many 3-5 putouts. The ball was caught at knee height. Nice play by Olson for sure and it's made even better doubling Cave off. 

 

I'm still more bothered by the fact that Cave didn't even try to get back to the bag. Even if the contact play was on, not trying to get back is a mistake. With as weak as the throw was, he could have at least made it close.

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#37 SwainZag

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:55 AM

 

When the Twins went up by 3 in the 8th, I was looking for Rocco to put another reliever in so Rogers could be used next game.

 

At that point he already warmed up and threw 16 pitches in the 8th.Someone else probably could have gotten the 3 outs, but.....I don't mind the decision at all to let him back out there.  


#38 USAFChief

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 09:03 AM

 

I’m trying to recall from memory but wasn’t the ball caught close to the ground. If that’s the case, it excusable. Not perfect base running but excusable. But I admit that I don’t know if the contact play was on. I’ve seen Kep do some questionable things at 3B this year.

Arraez in the “not hit” by a batter pick off. That’s a teaching moment for the 22 year old. Let the umpire make the call and stop for breakfast as he walks to 3B. If he is advancing on a what he thought was a passed ball... then he got picked plain and simple.

respectfully disagree. Doesn't matter where the ball was caught. Until you're sure the ball is on the ground, your first step is always back towards the bag, even on a contact play. If it's caught in the air, you might get back. If it's not caught, play it as you see fit. If it hits the ground, you're off (on a contact play). If it's past the infield, you score anyway. If it's caught by an outfielder in the air, you're tagging up anyway.

 

And in this case, the play was 150 feet away. Inexcusable to get picked off.

 

Agree on Arraez. Shouldn't happen.

 

 

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#39 SwainZag

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 09:05 AM

 

I guess we had very different coaches. I was always taught to freeze on a line drive. Make sure that it hits the ground or is caught before doing anything. If he hesitates and doesn't score but the out is recorded at first so be it. There's still a runner in scoring position and another batter comes to the plate with another chance to drive him in. If you don't know whether it hit the ground or not, err on the side of caution. Live to fight another day. If that ball was hit to 3B, I'd understand. I don't recall seeing too many 3-5 putouts. The ball was caught at knee height. Nice play by Olson for sure and it's made even better doubling Cave off. 

 

I'm still more bothered by the fact that Cave didn't even try to get back to the bag. Even if the contact play was on, not trying to get back is a mistake. With as weak as the throw was, he could have at least made it close.

 

For those who maybe didn't see the play, it's here:

 

https://cuts.diamond...20_59_4000K.mp4

 

That is a hard hit ball.I am going to guess Cave has a modest lead off of 3rd so he can score off a routine ground ball in the IF.That ball is off of Kepler's bat and out of Olson's hand in about a second and a half.Cave takes one step towards home when it's off the bat and he has no chance of getting back.Even if he freezes 30 feet down the line he is going to have trouble getting back on a strong throw.Just unfortunate the ball was hit that hard and he was playing in the right spot.The Arreaz base running mistake was a far more mental one in my book.


#40 Riverbrian

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 09:07 AM

respectfully disagree. Doesn't matter where the ball was caught. Until you're sure the ball is on the ground, your first step is always back towards the bag, even on a contact play. If it's caught in the air, you might get back. If it's not caught, play it as you see fit. If it hits the ground, you're off (on a contact play). If it's past the infield, you score anyway. If it's caught by an outfielder in the air, you're tagging up anyway.

And in this case, the play was 150 feet away. Inexcusable to get picked off.

Agree on Arraez. Shouldn't happen.


If it’s close to the ground he may have made the assumption that it was going to hit the ground.m and it just didn’t. But again... it wasn’t perfect base running regardless. And I’ve seen quite a bit not perfect base running.

Teaching moments all over the place.
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