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Positional flexibility

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#41 ashbury

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 06:39 AM

I mean, I guess...? It's kind of like saying "he's in the NFL so he's very good at football".

It's more like saying, I'm not sold on his arm at SS but the manager keeps writing his name in the lineup so I guess I'll let Rocco drag me along on this one.

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#42 USAFChief

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 06:42 AM

 

Honestly Doc,

 

Very few around here knew what the Cubs and Astros were doing. They got Kuddo's for winning but very few knew how they were winning.  

 

Very few knew what a Marwin was, "Yeah but what position will he play?". 

I think you're overstating your case. Everyone knows what a utility player is. Cesar Tovar says "hi."

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#43 Riverbrian

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 07:46 AM

I think you're overstating your case. Everyone knows what a utility player is. Cesar Tovar says "hi."


I am overstating my case. I’ve tried expressing nuance and found it doesn’t work.

Another over statement from me. Most know what utility is but too many don’t get what super utility is... like Marwin.

Why did we pay all that money to Marwin? Because he can play multiple positions. Why do we need him to play multiple positions? So we don’t have to play Taylor Motter.
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#44 Doomtints

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 09:37 AM

 

The roster management this year isn’t even close to years past.

 

It's not? Here's last year. I see 70% of the roster playing more than one fielding position. What do you see?

 

Name                       PosSummary
Tyler Austin                    1B-DH
Logan Morrison               1B-LF-DH
Joe Mauer                  1B-RF-DH-C
Brian Dozier                       2B
Logan Forsythe               2B-LF-DH
Gregorio Petit         2B-SS-3B-1B-DH
Miguel Sano                  3B-1B-DH
Eduardo Escobar              3B-SS-2B
Bobby Wilson                        C
Juan Graterol                       C
Jason Castro                        C
Chris Gimenez            C-1B-P-3B-DH
Mitch Garver                C-1B-P-DH
Willians Astudillo C-3B-2B-LF-P-CF-DH
Byron Buxton                    CF-DH
Ryan LaMarre            CF-LF-RF-P-DH
Jake Cave                 CF-RF-LF-DH
Eddie Rosario          LF-RF-CF-3B-DH
Johnny Field              LF-RF-CF-DH
Taylor Motter             RF-3B-SS-2B
Max Kepler                RF-CF-1B-DH
Robbie Grossman              RF-LF-DH
Jorge Polanco                      SS
Ehire Adrianza      SS-3B-1B-2B-LF-DH

Edited by Doomtints, 12 July 2019 - 09:46 AM.

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#45 DocBauer

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 11:05 AM

I'm sorry Doc but you missed my entire point. The eye test didn't really apply to Edmonds because he made plays look hard. But if you put all those plays in context, he wasn't very good because a guy like Hunter made those same plays look easy.

I'm not bashing Edmonds, he was good... but he wasn't great.

If you look at the defensive metrics - which I haven't - I suspect Hunter was MUCH better, even though Edmonds was heralded as a great centerfielder by the eye test.

And, again, haven't checked but I bet Buxton is better than either of them.

The eyes lie.


Sorry Brock, I should have been more clear in my comments. I wasn't specifically speaking about your comparison. I was simply stating that watching someone daily can allow for appreciation of their defense, whereas just a fielding or error statistic might not indicate their true, daily ability.
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#46 Riverbrian

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 01:21 PM

 

 

It's not? Here's last year. I see 70% of the roster playing more than one fielding position. What do you see?

 

Name                       PosSummary
Tyler Austin                    1B-DH
Logan Morrison               1B-LF-DH
Joe Mauer                  1B-RF-DH-C
Brian Dozier                       2B
Logan Forsythe               2B-LF-DH
Gregorio Petit         2B-SS-3B-1B-DH
Miguel Sano                  3B-1B-DH
Eduardo Escobar              3B-SS-2B
Bobby Wilson                        C
Juan Graterol                       C
Jason Castro                        C
Chris Gimenez            C-1B-P-3B-DH
Mitch Garver                C-1B-P-DH
Willians Astudillo C-3B-2B-LF-P-CF-DH
Byron Buxton                    CF-DH
Ryan LaMarre            CF-LF-RF-P-DH
Jake Cave                 CF-RF-LF-DH
Eddie Rosario          LF-RF-CF-3B-DH
Johnny Field              LF-RF-CF-DH
Taylor Motter             RF-3B-SS-2B
Max Kepler                RF-CF-1B-DH
Robbie Grossman              RF-LF-DH
Jorge Polanco                      SS
Ehire Adrianza      SS-3B-1B-2B-LF-DH

 

 

What do I see? 

 

I see a team that was completely unprepared, traditionally shallow and not flexible. If they would have set up for depth and flexibility before the season started... you wouldn't be able to list Logan Morrison or Logan Forsythe and others as part of your 70%. They were unprepared and forced to shove guys into positions under emergency.  

 

Taking a closer look at that 70% you present. 

 

Logan Morrison - 3 Innings total in LF. Why? They got caught with their pants down by not being flexible. 

 

Joe Mauer - One Third of an inning in RF and one pitch at C. You really can't include Joe as an example of Flexibility. 

 

Logan Forsythe - Stood in Left Field for a second... No Outs Recorded. 

 

Eddie Rosario - 2 Innings at 3B... Team Caught with Pants down... The rest is typical outfield play. 

 

Garver - 13 Innings at 1B

 

Gimenez - 2 starts and 24 Innings at 1B in September

 

Wilson, Graterol and Castro - Just Catchers... Typical... nothing out of the ordinary.

 

Lamarre, Cave, Field and Grossman... Outfielders being asked to play Outfield.

 

Miguel Sano - Played 1B and 3B. OK... a little typical corner infield flex. Nearly every team will ask their 3b to grab 1B mitt. Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

This reduces that 70% down to the following players. 

 

Gregorio Petit - Molitor didn't want to play him... He is that typical Utility guy who doesn't play. 

 

Taylor Motter - That typical utility guy that is thrown wherever on exceedingly rare occasions because Molitor didn't want to play him. 

 

Eduardo Escobar - He could be a fine example of a super utility player other than our chosen method of deployment, which is playing one static position at a time. Polanco suspended... Escobar becomes the everyday SS. Sano gets hurt and sent down to Ft. Myers. Escobar moves to everyday 3B with Adrianza taking over as the everyday SS. 

 

Adrianza - That typical utility player that every team has, who becomes necessary to play when injuries occur. 

 

And finally

 

Willans Astudillo - Who was called up to be a utility player... didn't play... sent back down and was then called up to be a catcher. 

 

 

Every team in baseball has a Adrianza, Escobar, Motter and Petit. They are called bench players. 

 

Baldelli plays all of his players more often and purposely starts a handful of them in multiple positions to get this done. It can't be compared with any past Minnesota Twins teams. 

 

 

 

 

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I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#47 Platoon

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 04:25 PM

Baldelli is sort of a enigma to me as a manager. Many of the traditional cause of fan discontent over a manager come (came) from in game moves. With then "new" form of baseball, there is little of that to discuss. That sort of leaves bull pen moves and roster use. I won't include lineup order, since we have apparently come to the conclusion that where a player bats has minsicule affect on the game? Overall I like much of what Rocco is doing. He is somewhat hamstrung by the lower tier of his pen, and I have a queasy feeling in my tummy that if the pennant race gets tight, he will over use Rogers. But that remains to be seen. It's awfully easy to coddle your relievers when you are on an offensive tear and are up by 7 all the time. One last thought. A lot of the Twins flexibility issues in the past were compliments of Molitor. One had to be semi vision impaired to fail to notice that some callups never got their shoes dusty. The FO can only call them up.
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#48 DocBauer

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 06:16 PM

To be clear about flexibility, taking player A, who is a 1B and shoving him out in LF because there is nobody else, is not being flexible. It's called desperation.

True roster flexibility means having a guy who can contribute offensively, to at least some degree, and not be a butcher in the field when and where you play him.

Witness Gonzalez and Adrianza. Also include Astudillo in that discussion. I know there are mixed views/opinions on Astudillo. But he is at least decent in the field and has a solid bat. Yes, some inconsistencies around his injury, but he has shown himself to be a solid bat when healthy. Nobody claimed he was Gold Glove anywhere. But solid and useful.

We could also talk about the surprising Arreaz.

The roster flexibility is excellent and has also helped cover for injuries.
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#49 stringer bell

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 06:26 AM

Different players, different levels. I’ve called Gonzalez an “unassigned regular”. He will get playing time no matter what. Adrianza is a proven three-position infielder who is capable of playing corner OF and first. Arraez is “lightning in a bottle”, hitting almost .400.

As for Astudillo, his ability to play infield and outfield and his contact abilities combined with ability to catch make him useful on a major league roster.
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#50 Doomtints

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 07:47 AM

What happened here is a couple of you liked the OP's definition of roster flexibility, then attacked that same definition when it was shown to be a poor definition.

 

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#51 Riverbrian

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 07:59 AM

 

What happened here is a couple of you liked the OP's definition of roster flexibility, then attacked that same definition when it was shown to be a poor definition.

 

It's fun to be a mod, right?

 

Not even close.

 

1. I disagree with you. You disagree with me. You asked me "What do I see?" and I answered. If you think that is an attack, Prove it and I will walk from this site forever due to over sensitivity.  

 

2. Shown to be a poor definition? I strongly disagree. 

 

3. And being a Mod is absolutely no fun at all. 

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A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

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I'm not a starting 9 guy!!!


#52 USAFChief

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 08:50 AM

Not even close.



3. And being a Mod is absolutely no fun at all.


But the pay makes up for it.
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#53 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 06:59 PM

 

The roster management this year isn’t even close to years past.

I've hoped that at some point, someone comes up with WAR for managers... because let's face it... a manager that consistently puts his/her team in the best place to win over the long run will vulture a few wins...

 

I do think this FO figured that part out... and so far, it looks like Rocco was the right choice. Sure, he makes the occasional mistake, but he's much better than anyone I've seen in Minnesota in my life.


#54 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 07:01 PM

 

Yikes, no. There's a reason why so few third basemen are in the Hall. It's an underappreciated and quite unique position.

 

Unless you mean that a third baseman can slide to first base, just like a centerfielder can slide to right/left field.

 

But the inverse is certainly not true.

I still to this day don't understand why Mauer didn't play some 3rd... in the name of that flexibility. It's not like he didn't have the arm for it... nor have we been trotting out some standouts there over there years.


#55 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 07:09 PM

 

But the pay makes up for it.

wait wut?

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#56 ashbury

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 07:15 PM

 

But the pay makes up for it.

 

wait wut?

CHZfvp3.gif

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#57 Battle ur tail off

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Posted 15 July 2019 - 03:04 PM

 

Polanco could be one of the biggest beneficiaries of the defensive shift of anyone in MLB. That times have changed is a good deal for him. Leaving him at the traditional SS position would expose both his arm and his lack of range. Since he now plays roughly a third of the time around or on the right side of 2nd base, his defensive flaws are mitigated. His offense is what I always expected. It's what will guarantee him a roster spot in MLB for the foreseeable, and hopefully considerable future.

 

You always expected him to be an All star? Towards the top of the batting title race? I know I didn't expect him to be at least this good. No one really predicted him to be this good of a hitter. If they had, he would have been a top 20 prospect in baseball. 

 

 




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