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The "Firings" that were not.

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#1 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:35 PM

It is still developing but it seems that 2 of the 5 coaching openings the Twins are having (BP, 1B, 3B, Hitting, Bench) will be filed by Scottie and Vavry. So only 3 new coaches, so just chairs were rearranged on the Titanic and 2 of the 3 who were fired (Stelly and Jerry) were the least responsible for this mess and the third (Liddly) was on his way to retirement.

Smoke and mirrors. Smoke and mirrors

Way to go Mr non-interim. Talking about accountability...

Meanwhile, Mr non-interim called Paul Molitor "non-compatible" and admitted that he will not be in the running for a coach position, even though the Hall of Famer said he was interested.

Edited by Thrylos, 05 October 2012 - 04:43 PM.

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#2 PseudoSABR

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:39 PM

Are you suggesting Varva becomes Bench Coach and Ulger becomes 1b Coach or something? Because why would the team publicly announce they had been reassigned to infield and outfield instruction?

#3 JB_Iowa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:44 PM

Look, just because Vavra and Ullger aren't coaches anymore doesn't mean that they won't have a huge impact on this system in their new positions (in fact, they may actually have more of an impact). And I bet that they didn't take much -- if any -- of a pay cut.

Similar to the Bill Smith 'termination' last year, this is wholly intended to get the fan base to buy season tickets.

It has very little to do with genuine change in this organization.

#4 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:45 PM

Are you suggesting Varva becomes Bench Coach and Ulger becomes 1b Coach or something? Because why would the team publicly announce they had been reassigned to infield and outfield instruction?


Still happening but look at this Not something I made up... Ryan's words
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#5 JB_Iowa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:56 PM

I hadn't read the news conference notes until now. So Ullger and Vavra are still at the major league level.

This is so pitiful. I hope the White Sox take a long look at a position for Stelly. And that White and Liddle find positions they'd like as well.

Look up the word scapegoat: their pictures should be there soon.

What a joke this franchise has become.

#6 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:56 PM

Derp

#7 JB_Iowa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:58 PM

One interesting thing about this. Can someone clarify for me. Does this mean that the Twins are increasing their ML staff? Wasn't infield/outfield instruction previously handled by coaches?

#8 PseudoSABR

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:59 PM

Ryan's words

It looks like it's Bollinger's words. He's not quoting Ryan. Whether they are only three hires today, doesn't necessarily mean Ulger and Varva are still on the ML staff (which would be weird given what information we actually have). But we'll see, if this turns out to be true, poor publicity from the Twins. Given that Varva himself thought he was fired, "Whatever happens, I've given it everything I've got," Vavra said, "and I'm proud of that." (PP quote).

#9 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:59 PM

Also, I like Molitor, but why is he assumed to be the savior of this franchise? The dude had his shot to be the manager once but pulled out at the last minute because of the contraction talk/what not.

If the managerial job is open, yeah interview him, but I understand them not wanting him as the bench coach (as people would instantly be calling for him to replace Gardy)

#10 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:12 PM

One interesting thing about this. Can someone clarify for me. Does this mean that the Twins are increasing their ML staff? Wasn't infield/outfield instruction previously handled by coaches?


No and Yes.

IF/OF instruction was informal. Jerry White was the OF coach.

So here are your "new" Twins' coaches:

Gardy: manager
Andy: Pitching
Scottie: Outfield/3B(or 1B)
Vavry: Infield/1B (or 3B)

and 3 openings:

Glynn: Bench
Bruno: Hitting
Cuellar: Bullpen
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#11 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:18 PM

Also, I like Molitor, but why is he assumed to be the savior of this franchise?


---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board.

#12 Alex

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:22 PM

I just don't think these things are worth caring about. Whether they fire 3 or 5 or everyone, it's not what really matters. I don't think there are any coaching staffs that could have won 90 games with this team, so to me, holding them accountable seems false in and of itself.

Now, if there's something going on in the clubhouse where players are bored listening to the same guys, then the moves are justified, but I'd think it'd be worthwhile to stop believing that personnel moves (or non-moves) are going to make a huge impact on the team in the win column.

Ultimately, the accountability should be on the front office and organization in their evaluation of players and refusal to spend money to improve the team through FA.

Edited by Alex, 05 October 2012 - 05:26 PM.


#13 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:33 PM

Ultimately, the accountability should be on the front office and organization in their evaluation of players and refusal to spend money to improve the team through FA.


In other words, Ryan should have taken off the word "interim" and added the word "former" on his title. I can live with that...
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#14 jokin

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:33 PM

It is still developing but it seems that 2 of the 5 coaching openings the Twins are having (BP, 1B, 3B, Hitting, Bench) will be filed by Scottie and Vavry. So only 3 new coaches, so just chairs were rearranged on the Titanic and 2 of the 3 who were fired (Stelly and Jerry) were the least responsible for this mess and the third (Liddly) was on his way to retirement.

Smoke and mirrors. Smoke and mirrors

Way to go Mr non-interim. Talking about accountability...

Meanwhile, Mr non-interim called Paul Molitor "non-compatible" and admitted that he will not be in the running for a coach position, even though the Hall of Famer said he was interested.


Thrylos, I thought you were pretty adamant that Molitor was "in" yesterday. I didn't see it based on his last tenure with the club. What happened? My thinking was that Gardy put his foot down for his main guys and squeezed one more year out of the Twins for him and his drinking buddies, the "reassignments" and firings were merely for public PR consumption that the Twins were "doing something." This talk that Gardy is on a short leash and could be out by May in 2013 is hogwash. When was the last time the Twins fired a manager? 26 years. When is the last time they fired a manager in the middle of the season? .......?

#15 jokin

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:40 PM

Also, I like Molitor, but why is he assumed to be the savior of this franchise?


---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board.


I'll join the chorus, Gladden isn't a great radio announcer, but pretty good at calling a spade a spade and was a leader on the field during his playing days and seems to be player's mentor who can light a fire of encouragment. Bruno has had some of the guys he's worked with speak up for him. Omar Vizquel has already been credited for mentoring the younger guys during his playing days. Ivan Rodriguez is begging for a coaching job and was an absolute competitor. All of these guys would be a fresh of breath air if they joined the coaching staff, after games when Gardy might claim that the players "battled their tails off" I might even tend to believe him.

#16 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:44 PM

It is still developing but it seems that 2 of the 5 coaching openings the Twins are having (BP, 1B, 3B, Hitting, Bench) will be filed by Scottie and Vavry. So only 3 new coaches, so just chairs were rearranged on the Titanic and 2 of the 3 who were fired (Stelly and Jerry) were the least responsible for this mess and the third (Liddly) was on his way to retirement.

Smoke and mirrors. Smoke and mirrors

Way to go Mr non-interim. Talking about accountability...

Meanwhile, Mr non-interim called Paul Molitor "non-compatible" and admitted that he will not be in the running for a coach position, even though the Hall of Famer said he was interested.


Thrylos, I thought you were pretty adamant that Molitor was "in" yesterday. I didn't see it based on his last tenure with the club. What happened? My thinking was that Gardy put his foot down for his main guys and squeezed one more year out of the Twins for him and his drinking buddies, the "reassignments" and firings were merely for public PR consumption that the Twins were "doing something." This talk that Gardy is on a short leash and could be out by May in 2013 is hogwash. When was the last time the Twins fired a manager? 26 years. When is the last time they fired a manager in the middle of the season? .......?


Well... That was yesterday, this is today. Ryan publicly said that Molitor was not "a fit". I suspect that Gardy felt threatened or something. And yesterday 2 out the 4 stooges were out and were listed in the web site as "minor league instructors". Today is another day. I just hope that the fans are really outraged by this whole thing and that the owners really do what they need to do starting with Ryan. And speaking of Ryan, I just cannot imagine how he can look himself in the mirror after firing only Stelly and Jerry and letting the others be. This fact tells me a lot about what Mr Ryan is all about and I hope that all Twins' fans "get it" now...
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#17 PseudoSABR

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:45 PM

You can watch the Press Conference on star tribune. TR clearly says Varva and Ulger were reassigned. However, he goes on to say that they are in a the market for a Bullpen Coach, a Hitting Coach, and a Bench Coach.

So are we to understand that Varva and Ulger will also man 1B and 3B coaching positions? And does that mean Glynn to BC, Bruno to HC and Cueller to BPC? I guess it makes sense, but the Twins mishandled the information poorly yesterday...

#18 AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:48 PM

There is so many conflicting reports about whats happening with this situation!

#19 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:50 PM

Gardy is incredibly intimidated by players who were better players than he was. It undermines him. Dont believe me.....who have the Twins had as a coach that had any type of a relevant MLB career??
This is a major reason why Molitor & Gardy didnt mesh well the first time thru.
Molly will be the backup plan for manager if Gardy is cut loose next season & gardy wouldnt want him on the staff as the trust factor wouldnt be there between the two.

#20 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:51 PM

So are we to understand that Varva and Ulger will also man 1B and 3B coaching positions? And does that mean Glynn to BC, Bruno to HC and Cueller to BPC? I guess it makes sense, but the Twins mishandled the information poorly yesterday...



Yes, That is what it means. More information here.

What the Twins' did yesterday, was not "mishandling" it was "misleading". And I do suspect that other things came up. (like maybe the manager of the millennium threatening to quit if all of his buddies were not back and/or if Molitor was considered).

And really:

The goats for a 99 and 96 loss seasons:

Stelly and Jerry

Seriously. Net result. Think about that for a second and then think about integrity.
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#21 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:53 PM

There is so many conflicting reports about whats happening with this situation!



Here.


That is what will happen
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#22 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:03 PM

[quote name='jokin'][quote name='one_eyed_jack'][quote name='SpiritofVodkaDave']Also, I like Molitor, but why is he assumed to be the savior of this franchise?[/QUOTE]

---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board.[/QUOTE]

I'll join the chorus, Gladden isn't a great radio announcer, but pretty good at calling a spade a spade and was a leader on the field during his playing days and seems to be player's mentor who can light a fire of encouragment. Bruno has had some of the guys he's worked with speak up for him. Omar Vizquel has already been credited for mentoring the younger guys during his playing days. Ivan Rodriguez is begging for a coaching job and was an absolute competitor. All of these guys would be a fresh of breath air if they joined the coaching staff, after games when Gardy might claim that the players "battled their tails off" I might even tend to believe him.[/QUOTE]

---I'm actually OK with Bruno because he has a track record of coaching success. Gladden does not. I'd be thrilled if we had guys play the game the way he did. Maybe he could get guys to play that way, but his personality and playing career alone are not a basis for assuming he can. The fact that you were a great player in an orchestra does not necessarily mean you will make a great conductor. The other guys you mentioned were not Twins. I'm not against former players. I'm against the idea that being a good Twins player once upon a time means you'll make a good Twins coach today.

Edited by one_eyed_jack, 05 October 2012 - 06:06 PM.


#23 jokin

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:06 PM

[quote name='one_eyed_jack'][quote name='jokin'][quote name='one_eyed_jack'][quote name='SpiritofVodkaDave']Also, I like Molitor, but why is he assumed to be the savior of this franchise?[/QUOTE]

---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board.[/QUOTE]

I'll join the chorus, Gladden isn't a great radio announcer, but pretty good at calling a spade a spade and was a leader on the field during his playing days and seems to be player's mentor who can light a fire of encouragment. Bruno has had some of the guys he's worked with speak up for him. Omar Vizquel has already been credited for mentoring the younger guys during his playing days. Ivan Rodriguez is begging for a coaching job and was an absolute competitor. All of these guys would be a fresh of breath air if they joined the coaching staff, after games when Gardy might claim that the players "battled their tails off" I might even tend to believe him.[/QUOTE]

---I'm actually OK with Bruno because he has a track record of coaching success. Gladden does not. I'd be thrilled if we had guys play the game the way he did. Maybe he could get guys to play that way, but his personality and playing career alone are not a basis for assuming he can. The fact that you were a great player in an orchestra does not necessarily mean you will make a great conductor. The other guys you mentioned were not Twins. I'm not against former players. I'm against the idea that being a good Twins player once upon a time means you'll be a good coach today.[/QUOTE]

So are you for or against hiring outside the organization? How about bringing in some new blood with a proven successful track record that might have a different approach to the "same old, same old" "Twins Way"?

#24 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:09 PM

[quote name='one_eyed_jack'][quote name='jokin'][quote name='one_eyed_jack'][quote name='SpiritofVodkaDave']Also, I like Molitor, but why is he assumed to be the savior of this franchise?[/QUOTE]

---Good question. Every time the subject of staff changes comes up, there's a chorus of demands for Molitor, Gladden, Hrbek, Brunansky, Carew, etc. But there's more to coaching and managing than telling war stories from your glory days. I need to see something more than "he played good for the Twins 2 or 3 decades ago" on a guy's resume to convince me he should be brought on board.[/QUOTE]

I'll join the chorus, Gladden isn't a great radio announcer, but pretty good at calling a spade a spade and was a leader on the field during his playing days and seems to be player's mentor who can light a fire of encouragment. Bruno has had some of the guys he's worked with speak up for him. Omar Vizquel has already been credited for mentoring the younger guys during his playing days. Ivan Rodriguez is begging for a coaching job and was an absolute competitor. All of these guys would be a fresh of breath air if they joined the coaching staff, after games when Gardy might claim that the players "battled their tails off" I might even tend to believe him.[/QUOTE]

---I'm actually OK with Bruno because he has a track record of coaching success. Gladden does not. I'd be thrilled if we had guys play the game the way he did. Maybe he could get guys to play that way, but his personality and playing career alone are not a basis for assuming he can. The fact that you were a great player in an orchestra does not necessarily mean you will make a great conductor. The other guys you mentioned were not Twins. I'm not against former players. I'm against the idea that being a good Twins player once upon a time means you'll be a good coach today.[/QUOTE]

Re: Gladden:
there is an often skipped fact:
Gladden was a below average player. His career slashline is: .270/.324/.382 once he stole 32 bases (but was caught 15 times). Great 1987 post-season, sucked in 1991 post-season

So when he is on his high horse about Ben Revere...
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#25 JB_Iowa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

Am I correct that the 2 they fired were a 64-year-old white man and a 60-year old African-American while the gentlemen they retained (even if reassigned) were all white and younger than 60?

A call to the EEOC is probably in order.

#26 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:52 PM

Am I correct that the 2 they fired were a 64-year-old white man and a 60-year old African-American while the gentlemen they retained (even if reassigned) were all white and younger than 60?

A call to the EEOC is probably in order.


well... Liddle was a 50 some white man too

as far as the call goes, 40+ is the protected age group legally. So the ones who stayed are in the same age group as the ones "whose contracts were not renewed"
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#27 PseudoSABR

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:16 PM

[QUOTE] More information here.[/QUOTE]No, that's the info we already know.
[QUOTE]What the Twins' did yesterday, was not "mishandling" it was "misleading". And I do suspect that other things came up. (like maybe the manager of the millennium threatening to quit if all of his buddies were not back and/or if Molitor was considered).[/QUOTE]Look, you admit you are guessing. You don't know what happened and what people were told and for what reasons.
[quote name='thrylos98']Think about that for a second and then think about integrity.[/QUOTE]This is both patronizing and absurd. Whiter integrity, indeed? You're framing the situation in your preferred narrative before you necessarily know the details, and then you're stridently thumping your chest about it. Ugh.

#28 JB_Iowa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:19 PM

I understand that the ones retained weren't all that much younger.

I just think that the picking and choosing that they did was interesting.

And no matter what, Liddle chose to announce in advance that he was retiring so technically the non-renewal of his contract was his choice.

#29 Thrylos

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:24 PM

[quote name='PseudoSABR'][QUOTE] More information here.[/QUOTE]No, that's the info we already know.
[QUOTE]What the Twins' did yesterday, was not "mishandling" it was "misleading". And I do suspect that other things came up. (like maybe the manager of the millennium threatening to quit if all of his buddies were not back and/or if Molitor was considered).[/QUOTE]Look, you admit you are guessing. You don't know what happened and what people were told and for what reasons.
[quote name='thrylos98']Think about that for a second and then think about integrity.[/QUOTE]This is both patronizing and absurd. Whiter integrity, indeed? You're framing the situation in your preferred narrative before you necessarily know the details, and then you're stridently thumping your chest about it. Ugh.[/QUOTE]

Hold it.

Yesterday. Scottie and Vavry were "fired". Today they resurfaced as 1st and 3rd base coaches. This is a FACT
What happened yesterday was misleading
and this speaks tons about Ryan's integrity
(to make myself clear).
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#30 Rosterman

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

My understanding is that Molitor didn't like being a coach when he was with Seattle because of the time living there and being on the road. He took a job as a roving instructor because he could be home more and just drop in on other towns. Now that his family has aged, he is more available to the day-to-day travel grind of baseball. Or so I seem to remember.
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