Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Photo

Article: KC 6, MIN 1: Bad Inning Spoils Awesome Uniforms

michael pineda luis arraez eddie rosario
  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#21 Aerodeliria

Aerodeliria

    Pensacola Blue Wahoos

  • Member
  • 584 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 06:09 PM

I have a question to those who have been a little closer to the professional game, and even though this is admittedly off-topic, I'll ask it here.

 

Coaches and managers often talk about pitchers having the same amount of rest in between their starts, but then, when there is an off-day or a rainout (or both), the number of off-days increases, meaning the pitcher will not be pitching on his scheduled day. This leads me to three queries:

 

1) If a pitcher has additional off-days in between starts, does that help the pitcher perform better or not? (I mean coaches and managers are always talking about making sure their pitching staff is well-rested, but is there such a thing as 'too much rest or over-rested (vs. overworked)?')

 

2) I know that some managers have tried using a six-man rotation, and I was wondering how that worked out or if it is always just considered a temporary measure...

 

3) If it is indeed helpful to have additional rest, I am wondering what the downside is to trying to employ a six-man rotation (besides the obvious inability to find six decent starters).

 

I'm sure someone here on the list has all of the answers, so please explicate. Thanks!!

  • Doctor Wu likes this

#22 jimbo92107

jimbo92107

    Señor Member

  • Member
  • 4,484 posts
  • LocationSan Diego

Posted 23 June 2019 - 06:13 PM

Luis Arraez looks like a young star to me. Reminds me of the feeling I got when I first saw Jorge Polanco. Guy just seems to have baseball in his blood. Same is true with Astudillo. I try to keep Torts and Arraez both. Might have to say bye to Adrianza's great fielding. 

 

If the Twins do send down Arraez, I hope they work his butt off at all the infield positions. At some point his glove will be good enough so that his bat wins the argument. Pretty much that's what Polanco did. 

  • Aerodeliria and jz7233 like this
The door opened. A woman screamed. Someday, my mom would learn to knock.

#23 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 22,637 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 06:21 PM

 

I am.He is just what we need - with he and Polanco getting on base the others can get the RBIs.I love the way he plays. 

He looks good... but it's 50 PAs. Again, if Arraez had more positional flexibility, I'd keep him around but he plays second base, which is a dead-end position. You can put him at third or short but you'll regret the decision if it happens too frequently.

 

Between Astudillo and Arraez, I keep the catcher because catchers are super-useful, especially one that can man several other positions (albeit kinda badly). It gives a lot of flexibility to make moves in-game.

  • pbrezeasap, jimbo92107, NapoleonComplex and 1 other like this

#24 jimbo92107

jimbo92107

    Señor Member

  • Member
  • 4,484 posts
  • LocationSan Diego

Posted 23 June 2019 - 06:45 PM

 

He looks good... but it's 50 PAs. Again, if Arraez had more positional flexibility, I'd keep him around but he plays second base, which is a dead-end position. You can put him at third or short but you'll regret the decision if it happens too frequently.

 

Between Astudillo and Arraez, I keep the catcher because catchers are super-useful, especially one that can man several other positions (albeit kinda badly). It gives a lot of flexibility to make moves in-game.

Agreed for the moment, but things could change if Arraez gets better technique with his feet and glove. Tortuga's glove fails a bit too often to rely on him as your super-sub, and that includes at catcher, where I have seen him muff a few too many pitches in the dirt. 

 

A lot has been said about A-Stud's uncanny contact rate, but now we have seen the down side - repeated two-hoppers to SS, or easy fly balls to the outfield. Meanwhile, Arraez's bat seems to produce more genuine hits, and the guy is willing to take a walk, unlike El Cherubo. Which one will be the better hitter a year from now? Arraez. His plate discipline and his ability to aim the ball in holes will win the day. Astudillo will continue to entice with his streaky bat, but once Ben Rortvedt arrives, he and Garver will get the lion's share of catching duties. Unless A-Stud learns to aim his hits better, he'll remain strictly a bench option unless a catcher gets hurt. 

  • jz7233 likes this
The door opened. A woman screamed. Someday, my mom would learn to knock.

#25 james2334

james2334

    Cedar Rapids Kernels

  • Member
  • 64 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 06:56 PM

 

I love the KC style.They lack pitching, but their hit and run style is fun and upsets teams that stand and swing. 

I don't know if I prefer watching one style over the other, but I do enjoy watching two teams with different styles of play squaring off. With analytics taking over the game a lot of teams are taking similar offensive approaches and it can be boring watching everyone strike out, walk, or hit a home run. I can appreciate the fact that KC has given the middle finger to the analytic approach to hitting and instead is committed to playing small ball. It hasn't worked out too well for them and in the era of the juiced ball I'm not sure what the ceiling is for that style of play, but sometimes if you zig when everyone else zags who knows?

Edited by james2334, 23 June 2019 - 06:59 PM.

  • David HK likes this

#26 David HK

David HK

    Minnesota Twins

  • Member
  • 3,389 posts
  • LocationHong Kong

Posted 23 June 2019 - 08:52 PM

 

I don't know if I prefer watching one style over the other, but I do enjoy watching two teams with different styles of play squaring off. With analytics taking over the game a lot of teams are taking similar offensive approaches and it can be boring watching everyone strike out, walk, or hit a home run. I can appreciate the fact that KC has given the middle finger to the analytic approach to hitting and instead is committed to playing small ball. It hasn't worked out too well for them and in the era of the juiced ball I'm not sure what the ceiling is for that style of play, but sometimes if you zig when everyone else zags who knows?

Well, they just played the AL % leaders to a standoff this weekend (outscoring us, too), and could have had a sweep with a little better BP work.  

 

It was an enjoyable series from a baseball-watching perspective. But a worrying series from a Twins-Central-title one.

  • Dman and jz7233 like this

#27 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    A Little Teapot

  • Owner
  • 22,637 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 09:20 PM

 

Agreed for the moment, but things could change if Arraez gets better technique with his feet and glove. Tortuga's glove fails a bit too often to rely on him as your super-sub, and that includes at catcher, where I have seen him muff a few too many pitches in the dirt.

Last I saw, Astudillo graded roughly average as a catcher and marginally sub-par in the field outside playing catcher.

 

If that guy hits, he's a useful player.

 

I'm saying this as a person who is NOT an Astudillo fan, just a person who wants the Twins to field the best team they can.

  • jimbo92107, NapoleonComplex, Dman and 2 others like this

#28 D.C Twins

D.C Twins

    Ft Myers Miracle

  • Member
  • 373 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 09:21 PM

Should Arraez get a shot at lead off hitter? Seems like he takes good at bats and gets on base a ton.... He doesn't seem like he is one who gets overwhelmed by increased pressure...

  • jimbo92107, NapoleonComplex, Original Whizzinator and 2 others like this

#29 D.C Twins

D.C Twins

    Ft Myers Miracle

  • Member
  • 373 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 09:27 PM

I understand the SSS argument and we can be fairly confident that he won't maintain his 0.529 OBP ?!! 

 

but I think he has a very LARGE sample size at this point at taking professional at bats at multiple levels of competition which makes me think that he will hit long term in the MLB.

 

I would actually feel better about him in a playoff series than Sano.....I wish I didn't, and maybe it's not rational, but there I said it :)

  • jz7233 likes this

#30 Dantes929

Dantes929

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 2,600 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:07 PM

 

I understand the SSS argument and we can be fairly confident that he won't maintain his 0.529 OBP ?!! 

 

but I think he has a very LARGE sample size at this point at taking professional at bats at multiple levels of competition which makes me think that he will hit long term in the MLB.

 

 

But so did Astudillo. He had a .315 avg in the minors and is still batting .298 in his major league career.Everyone seemed to think he was the real deal a short while ago and were demanding he play every day. Of course Arraez should be playing as much as possible but if he is at .529 OBP right now what are you going to say when he has a month of .300 OBP, because of course he will.  Nothing wrong with that but nothing wrong with Astudillo having a slump either. Maybe Arraez will be great and I am ok with projecting him as our 2nd baseman for years to come but what you are seeing right now is a hot streak which a lot of people have been capable of from Buscher, to Punto to Casilla.  

  • pbrezeasap and Dman like this
If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

#31 Dantes929

Dantes929

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 2,600 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:23 PM

 

The Indians are just going to keep getting better. They’ll get Kluber and Clevinger back. Lindor will keep getting better as he returns from injury. Things can only get better for Ramirez. They’re getting a number of quality prospects up from the minors.

We’re not going to run away with this thing. I’d make the bet that the Indians will cut this lead to less than 5 games by the end of July. The way things are going right now, it’ll be by the end of June....and it’s far from a guarantee that the Central will get a wildcard spot.

If this front office doesn’t get proactive now (aka, make some moves in the next couple of weeks), it’s going to be too late. This pitching staff, with the exception of Berrios, is awful and it’s going the wrong direction. If this team misses the playoffs, it’s one of the most epic collapses in the history of baseball. People should be fired if it happens.

In 2006 the Twins were double digits back for much of June and July and were still 10.5 back on August 7th.  In other words they were farther back way later in the season and came back to win on the last day of the season. Did the Tigers collapse? Maybe in the last 4 games but they won 95 (and got to the WS as a wild card btw).  How can you call that a collapse? If the Twins win half their games from this point they will have 93 wins which very likely gets them a wild card spot. You just cited several reasons why Cleveland will be getting better so why would you call it an epic collapse if they were to catch them with most of the season left to play? Most here thought the Twins might win 85 games or so.  I never thought the Twins were a shoo in for the division.  Just toomany guys playing too well.  Hard to sustain that. Much like at an individual level Arraez cannot sustain what he has been doing. I can still imagine them winning 95 or more but can also imagine them winning 90 or so. Its baseball. It doesn't have to be a collapse. It can be someone else getting hot.  

If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

#32 Dantes929

Dantes929

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 2,600 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:42 PM

 

I am always mystified by the statements that a pitcher did really well except for one inning.That was a five run inning.Seldom do teams have many multi-run innings.That one inning was huge.Pineda has a 0.1 WAR and a 4.76 ERA.He is only replacement level.Which is alright at five, but the Twins need more. 

Pineda missed an entire season and understandably started slow but as was pointed out has been a different pitcher since the beginning of May.  Major league pitchers on average in 2018 had quality starts in 79 of 162 games which is just below 50%.  So far this year AL pitchers average 29 quality starts in 77 games which is way below 50% and the average ERA is 4.52. Pineda in his last 7 games had 5 quality starts and missed out on 7 of 7 by just an inning and a third.  That is as the 5th starter!...I can understand saying you have to include even the bad innings in a performance but why would you dismiss the latest 7 starts.  1 of his first 7 starts were quality and 5 of his last 7 were quality.  That still averages out to better than replacement but hardly tells the whole story which is that in the last month and a half he has been much better than the average major league starter.  Better than the average major league starter is more than all right for a #5.

  • h2oface likes this
If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

#33 Dantes929

Dantes929

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 2,600 posts

Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:46 PM

I wouldn't mind those uniforms showing up more often.

If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

#34 AlwaysinModeration

AlwaysinModeration

    Minnesota Twins

  • Member
  • 2,589 posts

Posted 24 June 2019 - 04:31 AM

When does Buxton get back? The Twins need him.
  • lukeduke1980 and jz7233 like this

#35 mikelink45

mikelink45

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • 2,588 posts

Posted 24 June 2019 - 04:43 AM

 

Pineda missed an entire season and understandably started slow but as was pointed out has been a different pitcher since the beginning of May.  Major league pitchers on average in 2018 had quality starts in 79 of 162 games which is just below 50%.  So far this year AL pitchers average 29 quality starts in 77 games which is way below 50% and the average ERA is 4.52. Pineda in his last 7 games had 5 quality starts and missed out on 7 of 7 by just an inning and a third.  That is as the 5th starter!...I can understand saying you have to include even the bad innings in a performance but why would you dismiss the latest 7 starts.  1 of his first 7 starts were quality and 5 of his last 7 were quality.  That still averages out to better than replacement but hardly tells the whole story which is that in the last month and a half he has been much better than the average major league starter.  Better than the average major league starter is more than all right for a #5.

He has shown improvement, but I am not a quality start person.I think that Quality starts rate right with saves as a meaningless stat.If we refer to wAR as meaningful stat he is replacement level.just like Martin Perez - 0.0 WAR.And you can choose beginning of the year or recent with him too.

 

They have months to prove they are better than #5 starters, but right now, like #5s they are erratic. 

  • jz7233 likes this

#36 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 7,727 posts

Posted 24 June 2019 - 05:55 AM

I understand the SSS argument and we can be fairly confident that he won't maintain his 0.529 OBP ?!!

but I think he has a very LARGE sample size at this point at taking professional at bats at multiple levels of competition which makes me think that he will hit long term in the MLB.

I would actually feel better about him in a playoff series than Sano.....I wish I didn't, and maybe it's not rational, but there I said it :)


Large sample size across all levels of competition:

Sano- 3943 PA: .877 OPS
Arraez- 2027 PA: .802 OPS

#37 rdehring

rdehring

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 1,424 posts

Posted 24 June 2019 - 06:33 AM

Loved the uniforms, especially the Twins.

 

Watching Arraez take his at bats tells me he isn't a flash in the pan.He is what he is and that is a high on base guy at whatever level he is at.That plays, especially amongst a lot of bomba hitters.Put him in the lead off slot, or #7 ahead of Garver and Buxton and he will score runs, a lot of runs.  

 

Yes, another month or two will confirm his SSS is who he is....maybe not a .529 OBP, but likely well over .400.When does he earn the starting second base job?Probably not until Schoop is no longer on the team.With the Twins needing to sign a lot of big dollar extensions next off season, I don't see them paying big dollars to extend/resign Schoop.So pencil him in to the 2020 lineup.Do they make the move sooner should a deal develop to move Schoop next month?Interesting! 

 


#38 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 7,727 posts

Posted 24 June 2019 - 06:41 AM

Loved the uniforms, especially the Twins.

Watching Arraez take his at bats tells me he isn't a flash in the pan. He is what he is and that is a high on base guy at whatever level he is at. That plays, especially amongst a lot of bomba hitters. Put him in the lead off slot, or #7 ahead of Garver and Buxton and he will score runs, a lot of runs.

Yes, another month or two will confirm his SSS is who he is....maybe not a .529 OBP, but likely well over .400. When does he earn the starting second base job? Probably not until Schoop is no longer on the team. With the Twins needing to sign a lot of big dollar extensions next off season, I don't see them paying big dollars to extend/resign Schoop. So pencil him in to the 2020 lineup. Do they make the move sooner should a deal develop to move Schoop next month? Interesting!


In the entire history of MLB, only 56 players have posted career OBP of .400 or higher. Even Joe Mauer failed to come close.
And you think it's not only LIKELY that Arraez will do this, but that he'll have WELL OVER it?

If that was indeed likely, he'd be the #1 overall prospect in baseball.
  • Dantes929, Tomj14 and Nine of twelve like this

#39 Nine of twelve

Nine of twelve

    Rochester Red Wings

  • Member
  • 2,413 posts
  • LocationEarth, for the time being

Posted 24 June 2019 - 06:48 AM

 

Should Arraez get a shot at lead off hitter? 

I think it's highly likely that's where he will be next season and beyond, playing 2B regularly.

  • jz7233 likes this

#40 USAFChief

USAFChief

    Bad puns. That's how eye roll.

  • Moderator
  • 25,089 posts
  • LocationTucson

Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:00 AM

Headline is wrong. Should be "1 bad inning makes awful uniforms forgettable."

  • SQUIRREL and Vanimal46 like this

Cutting my carbs...with a pizza slicer.




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: michael pineda, luis arraez, eddie rosario