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Article: SEA 9, MIN 6: Bullpen, Errors Spoil Buxton’s Dramatic Homer

byron buxton marwin gonzalez jose berrios tyler duffey trevor may
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#21 USAFChief

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 08:40 AM

Yep. A double and a walk, followed by a sac-bunt ... and then "oh, if only the throw were better or the catch made, we'd have wriggled out of this."

It can't be a clean inning every time, but lately we've been wriggling out of too many jams.

and not wriggling out of too many jams.
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#22 SwainZag

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 08:50 AM

I didn't see the game, but was there any talk of why they didn't give Smith and intentional pass to load the bases and set up the double play?  


#23 Sconnie

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:06 AM

 

as much as I want to blame the pen... the defense cost us that game.

if the bullpen were striking batters out, instead of allowing balls in play, would the errors have happened? I can still find a way to blame the bullpen

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#24 Darius

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:26 AM

I may as well just prepare myself for the let down now.

History tells me this team isn’t going to do enough to fix this terrible bullpen (they’ll make some half-a&@ moves for expiring deals). If that is the case, this team isn’t even getting a whiff of the ALCS.

A lot of people are giving the bullpen a pass. But, it doesn’t take Keith Law to see that this unit was hanging by a thread thus far. That thread snapped against Milwaukee a couple weeks ago, and it’s in full-blown free fall at this point.

#25 spycake

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:27 AM

 

I didn't see the game, but was there any talk of why they didn't give Smith and intentional pass to load the bases and set up the double play?  

A few factors:

 

Seager looks to be a flyball hitter (although he did ground out twice in this game).

 

Gordon (the lead runner) and Smith are pretty fast (and Long's probably not a slowpoke?).

 

And if you walk Smith, then if Seager doesn't hit into a double play, Encarnacion comes up with men on base. Ideally they want to avoid Encarnacion, and not rely entirely on Seager's DP odds to do it.


#26 Einheri

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:35 AM

Trade for some relievers… NOW!  Don't wait.  Set the market price; don't wait for "bargains."


#27 Dantes929

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:55 AM

 

if the bullpen were striking batters out, instead of allowing balls in play, would the errors have happened? I can still find a way to blame the bullpen

Well, yeah... but I can still blame the offense, the base running and the defense too. I am fine with putting blame on the pen for this one as well as a few other games and a few blown saves, and no, I am not happy with the bullpen as is but Is it really the view of everyone that other bullpen's are awesome and strike everyone out?I am sure the Dodgers, Cubs, Red Sox, Astros and Yankees bullpens just strike everyone out, especially their closers.I just have a hard time reconciling it with the fact that they all have 2 or 3 times as many blown saves and higher blown save % than the Twins.Kind of reminds me of the results of a poll I once heard on the radio.Said that on average guys have relations with 8 different women in their life and on average women only have relations with 4 different guys.Everyone around me nodded their head and said that sounds about right.I pointed out that unless there are twice as many women that is not how average works.They insisted the poll was correct and math is just wrong..  

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#28 USAFChief

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:56 AM

A few factors:
 
Seager looks to be a flyball hitter (although he did ground out twice in this game).
 
Gordon (the lead runner) and Smith are pretty fast (and Long's probably not a slowpoke?).
 
And if you walk Smith, then if Seager doesn't hit into a double play, Encarnacion comes up with men on base. Ideally they want to avoid Encarnacion, and not rely entirely on Seager's DP odds to do it.


Plus Smith is easily the worst rest hitter among him, Seager and Encarnacion.

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#29 USAFChief

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:00 AM

Well, yeah... but I can still blame the offense, the base running and the defense too. I am fine with putting blame on the pen for this one as well as a few other games and a few blown saves, and no, I am not happy with the bullpen as is but Is it really the view of everyone that other bullpen's are awesome and strike everyone out? I am sure the Dodgers, Cubs, Red Sox, Astros and Yankees bullpens just strike everyone out, especially their closers. I just have a hard time reconciling it with the fact that they all have 2 or 3 times as many blown saves and higher blown save % than the Twins. Kind of reminds me of the results of a poll I once heard on the radio. Said that on average guys have relations with 8 different women in their life and on average women only have relations with 4 different guys. Everyone around me nodded their head and said that sounds about right. I pointed out that unless there are twice as many women that is not how average works. They insisted the poll was correct and math is just wrong..

The math can be right, when using averages.

10 guys, each have 8 different partners. Average: 8.

10 women, 9 with 3 different partners, 1 with 13. Average: 4.

And the Twins pen can be worse than other contenders, and getting worser, despite being covered up by good fortune, great starting pitching, and historical offense.
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#30 ashbury

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:03 AM

The math can be right, when using averages.

10 guys, each have 8 different partners. Average: 8.

10 women, 9 with 3 different partners, 1 with 13. Average: 4.

There was only 10 guys. That one lady's a player, for sure.

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#31 USAFChief

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:08 AM

There was only 10 guys. That one lady's a player, for sure.

not that there’s anything wrong with that.
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#32 Loops

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:18 AM

With a shaky bullpen you don't want to give away free runs because of errors.5 errors in a games is extreme.Sano is the one who worries me.He just had a bad error in Boston and now this.Plus he strikes out a lot offensively.He needs a reset.


#33 Minny505

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:24 AM

 

Just like hitters miss the ball when they don't keep their head on it and look away too soon. Just like football receivers look down field just before the ball gets there and miss the pass. Just like Buxton dropped one earlier in the year ...... unfortunate, but not a deal breaker at all. Throwing a ball with no chance of success .... those are the errors that I hate.

 

I was watching the game on mute with the fam and after watching the replay I commented that they might give Cron an error on the throw. Nothing about that was Garver's fault.

 

Even on the replay, the runner is safe if Garver had caught that cleanly. There is nothing he could have done with that throw to make an out.

That play is on Cron, not on Garver.

 

To read here that they charged Garver with an error is really surprising.


#34 Dantes929

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:27 AM

 

I may as well just prepare myself for the let down now.

History tells me this team isn’t going to do enough to fix this terrible bullpen (they’ll make some half-a&@ moves for expiring deals). If that is the case, this team isn’t even getting a whiff of the ALCS.

A lot of people are giving the bullpen a pass. But, it doesn’t take Keith Law to see that this unit was hanging by a thread thus far. That thread snapped against Milwaukee a couple weeks ago, and it’s in full-blown free fall at this point.

 

I may as well just prepare myself for the let down now.

History tells me this team isn’t going to do enough to fix this terrible bullpen (they’ll make some half-a&@ moves for expiring deals). If that is the case, this team isn’t even getting a whiff of the ALCS.

A lot of people are giving the bullpen a pass. But, it doesn’t take Keith Law to see that this unit was hanging by a thread thus far. That thread snapped against Milwaukee a couple weeks ago, and it’s in full-blown free fall at this point.

I disagree completely, or rather, a fair amount. No, I am not happy with the makeup of the bullpenand hope they improve but games are won in a variety of games and that includes playoff games. How many times over the years have I heard that starting pitching needed to be great and power was absolutely essential and then see the Royals get to two WS with a lower level rotation and the very bottom of the league in home runs.1987 Twins had a horrible bull pen. Go look it up.Buerenguer was at a 3.99 ERA and everyone else was 4.48 or higher and in some cases much higher but in the short series playoffs Schatzeder, Frazier and Niekro came up huge. I can easily imagine a playoff where Odorizzi and Berios each pitch 7 good innings and Rogers, May, and Harper cleaning up and then a day of rest. I can also imagine, Duffey, Magill or Pineda having a good week or some one else stepping up.Getting ahead of ourselves though.The number one factor in succeeding in the playoffs is to actually make the playoffs.Lets win today. 

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#35 Dantes929

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:55 AM

 

The math can be right, when using averages.

10 guys, each have 8 different partners. Average: 8.

10 women, 9 with 3 different partners, 1 with 13. Average: 4.

And the Twins pen can be worse than other contenders, and getting worser, despite being covered up by good fortune, great starting pitching, and historical offense.

In an equal population where are all the extra partners coming from for the men?If there are 8 men and eight women it is possible for each man to have 8 different female partners but not if each of the women have only 4 different male partners no matter how it is distributed. In a population of 100 men and 100 women it is not possible for men to be with women 800 times (100X8 on average)while women have been with men only 400 times on average.Every time a man has been with a woman a woman has also been with a man...

.

Yes, the Twin pen can be worse than other contenders and getting worse.It can still get covered up by good starting pitching, offense and good fortune and at this point doesn't need a 70% win percentage.It has been a weakness but far from a fatal weakness.3 or 4 years ago Perkins and Jepsen blew about 5 games in two weeks and the team never recovered.The pen this year has blown several games but has contributed greatly to quite a few wins also.Overall, I am not at all unhappy with the performance of the pen thus far. I wasn't expecting lights out and they have done enough to preserve enough wins to keep me happy. Yes, I want a couple better pitchers to increase the odds of continuing to feel that way. Go talk to the fans of the teams that have blown 12 games so far.I do fear they are getting worse but a lot of my fear has to do with Rogers. I don't know how serious that is.

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#36 USAFChief

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 11:50 AM

I was watching the game on mute with the fam and after watching the replay I commented that they might give Cron an error on the throw. Nothing about that was Garver's fault.

Even on the replay, the runner is safe if Garver had caught that cleanly. There is nothing he could have done with that throw to make an out.

That play is on Cron, not on Garver.

To read here that they charged Garver with an error is really surprising.

the throw struck Garver directly in the glove. That's on Garver.

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#37 Doomtints

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:03 PM

Is this the panic people keep predicting?

 

The Twins have a .500 record post-Astudillo, btw.

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#38 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:03 PM

 

if the bullpen were striking batters out, instead of allowing balls in play, would the errors have happened? I can still find a way to blame the bullpen

Fair enough, but the pen was asked to account for 7 outs. They got 2 Ks in that time frame I'd add too. Hoping they strike out all 7 without any balls in play on a consistent basis is unrealistic. Expecting them to not commit 5 errors most definitely is. 

 

I'm not arguing that we need help there. One extra K could have certainly changed a lot of dynamics of the game... but 5 errors... seriously, 5 errors. I've played on beer league softball teams that played better defense than that. 

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#39 h2oface

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:07 PM

 

I was watching the game on mute with the fam and after watching the replay I commented that they might give Cron an error on the throw. Nothing about that was Garver's fault.

 

Even on the replay, the runner is safe if Garver had caught that cleanly. There is nothing he could have done with that throw to make an out.

That play is on Cron, not on Garver.

 

To read here that they charged Garver with an error is really surprising.

 

Yes, not the optimal throw for the tag. Regardless of whether the throw was optimal for the tag, it was easily catchable. He should catch it at least. Maybe he doesn't make the tag in time, but he should catch the ball. Just like when his target for the pitcher is the low and outside corner of the zone, and the pitcher completely misses the target and throws it to the high and inside part of the zone, he still needs to move his glove, and watch the ball into his glove, and make the catch. I give the error to Garver for sure, for not making the catch.

Edited by h2oface, 13 June 2019 - 12:17 PM.


#40 h2oface

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:11 PM

 

Is this the panic people keep predicting?

 

The Twins have a .500 record post-Astudillo, btw.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins end up about a .500 team from here on out. Especially as the bullpen remains what it is and the starters regress. For a team that utilizes advanced stats and analytics so much, the bullpen has been screaming this was going to happen all year....... especially Parker, and Hildenberger, and even Rodgers, whose WHIP and average against indicates he has been pretty lucky. That should still get them the AL Central. But this team is ready for tweaks of improvement. Take the lucky performances and fortify, if the goal is the World Series.

 

Astudillo is also part of the problem, not a solution. Like Colabello, take the hot spell as a gift, and move on. Not a fan.

Edited by h2oface, 13 June 2019 - 12:14 PM.




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