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RIP: Opener Pitcher

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#21 Riverbrian

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 03:13 PM

I think the opener has been around forever. Back in the day the talent pool was such that No team had 5 quality starters. Every pitcher knew that when the 3-4-5 starters were up it was All Hands on Deck. This is not new. For the Rays(or anyone else) taking credit for a new innovative way of managing their pitching staff is just Nonsense. They dreamed it up from reading history books. The best teams still go 5 starters deep and what you do that 4-5th day either makes or breaks you.


Maybe but nobody else was reading those history books for two or three decades.
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#22 yarnivek1972

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 06:39 PM

Pineda, time through the order, 2019, by OPS:

1st: .515
2nd: .956
3rd: 1.716


Ridiculously SSS obviously, but based on that Pineda should be an opener (or long reliever).

For his career, the splits are .712, .662 and .799. So, he is worse third time around (I suspect most pitchers are) but not substantially.
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#23 Channing1964

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 07:58 PM

Maybe but nobody else was reading those history books for two or three decades.


I know its a trendy thing to do but.....Im not ready to crown the Rays and adopt their new revolutionary methods. The World Series winner last year won with heart, clutch performances, team chemistry, and a great clubhouse leader.(kinda reminds me of a certain team) New ideas and analytics are here to stay but thats only gonna work as an evaluation tool. The team that wins will have the best players, not the newest model of robots.

#24 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 08:09 PM

 

I know its a trendy thing to do but.....Im not ready to crown the Rays and adopt their new revolutionary methods. The World Series winner last year won with heart, clutch performances, team chemistry, and a great clubhouse leader.(kinda reminds me of a certain team) New ideas and analytics are here to stay but thats only gonna work as an evaluation tool. The team that wins will have the best players, not the newest model of robots.

You're joking, right?

 

The last three World Series have involved Cleveland, the Dodgers (twice), the Red Sox, and the Astros.

 

Those four teams are literally the models of modern analytics in baseball.

 

Where you see "heart", I see "lots of spreadsheets". Sure, the players are the ones who go out and win those ballgames but those players didn't emerge from the ether; they were drafted, traded, and developed for very specific reasons.

 

And those reasons were borne from people who spent a lot of time in front of computers.

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#25 Riverbrian

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 08:23 PM

 

I know its a trendy thing to do but.....Im not ready to crown the Rays and adopt their new revolutionary methods. The World Series winner last year won with heart, clutch performances, team chemistry, and a great clubhouse leader.(kinda reminds me of a certain team) New ideas and analytics are here to stay but thats only gonna work as an evaluation tool. The team that wins will have the best players, not the newest model of robots.

 

The Red Sox had an amazing year last year from wire to wire and they won with heart, clutch performances, team chemistry and a great clubhouse leader. 

 

However, can't the Rays win with heart, clutch performances, team chemistry and a great clubhouse leader. 

 

Does trying something different or using data to make decisions and not just evaluation... eliminate heart, clutch performance, team chemistry and clubhouse leaders?:)

 

 

 

 

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#26 Channing1964

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 08:30 PM

You're joking, right?
 
The last three World Series have involved Cleveland, the Dodgers (twice), the Red Sox, and the Astros.
 
Those four teams are literally the models of modern analytics in baseball.
 
Where you see "heart", I see "lots of spreadsheets". Sure, the players are the ones who go out and win those ballgames but those players didn't emerge from the ether; they were drafted, traded, and developed for very specific reasons.
 
And those reasons were borne from people who spent a lot of time in front of computers.

sooo because we have a scouting department that primarily uses spread sheets and computers now, then being a good teammate, a hustler, someone who stays out of jail, and someone the fans dont mind their children looking up to just all of a sudden doesn't matter anymore? I feel like this path or this mindset is the root of all the evil in MLB today. The attendance problems in every city.The fact that youth baseball is at an all time low, kids don't care about the game because their parents don't either. Pretty soon there will be Three generations of Americans that are indifferent towards the game. The constant labor strife that will culminate just before the current CBA expires will possibly damage the game of baseball irreparably. These things really hurt the ability of the league to keep cultivating a relationship with new or first time fans. We are way off thread here but sometimes smart guys dont see the long term effects of their brilliance. I do so hope I'm wrong.

#27 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 08:33 PM

 

sooo because we have a scouting department that primarily uses spread sheets and computers now, then being a good teammate, a hustler, someone who stays out of jail, and someone the fans dont mind their children looking up to just all of a sudden doesn't matter anymore?

This has literally nothing to do with what I said.

 

You're diminishing the impact of analytics in an era where the best teams use it extensively. 

 

I'm saying that the two don't need to be exclusive; it's possible to field the best team possible while also factoring in character. 

 

In fact, the Twins front office has talked about player character frequently. They factor that into their decisions all the time. Thad Levine has mentioned it more times than I can count.

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#28 Channing1964

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 08:46 PM

This has literally nothing to do with what I said.
 
You're diminishing the impact of analytics in an era where the best teams use it extensively. 
 
I'm saying that the two don't need to be exclusive; it's possible to field the best team possible while also factoring in character. 
 
In fact, the Twins front office has talked about player character frequently. They factor that into their decisions all the time. Thad Levine has mentioned it more times than I can count.

if you just wanna argue every point i make go ahead ....i declare you the winner

#29 Channing1964

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 08:50 PM

all i know on may 4th 2019 is that the World Series Champion will be crowned on the field not in the computer lab.

#30 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 09:06 PM

 

if you just wanna argue every point i make go ahead ....i declare you the winner

Okay, cool.

 

Wait, what?

 

Read what you wrote again, maybe this time a bit more slowly.

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#31 Mike Sixel

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 09:31 PM

all i know on may 4th 2019 is that the World Series Champion will be crowned on the field not in the computer lab.

I literally have no idea your point with this post.

It's been a fun year so far, GO Twins. 


#32 Seth Stohs

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 10:03 PM

 

The difference is they have 5 starters this year......

 

Openers and piggybacking makes a ton of sense for teams w/o 5 starters. 

 

BTW, Tampa was very good last year and they used the opener......and are light years ahead of most teams in terms of what they achieve on their budget. So I'm not sure the point.

 

Absolutely corect. No one wants to use an opener/primary/piggybacking... Ideally teams want their starters to go 6 or 7 innings all the time. But teams are willing to try these types of things when needed. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing the Twins go with Mejia as an opener with Michael Pineda. Pineda really struggles the third time through the order. Mejia hasn't transitioned smoothly to the bullpen. 

 

Not saying that would work, but teams should continue to try such things in whatever form to get outs. 

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#33 jdoffing11

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 10:10 PM

I highly doubt we've seen the last of the opener with the Twins... Pineda is a clear candidate if he continues to struggle the second and third times through the order, as pointed to above, and the odds that all 5 rotational guys are gonna stay healthy for the whole year are minimal, so even if they only miss one or two starts we'll probably open for guys like Stewart, Gonsalves, Littell, etc. I'm guessing the only reason we didn't for Stewart's start earlier this year was because our bullpen was shortened. Two of those guys are much more effective with the opener as well. 

Stewart as starter: 5 GS, 22.1 Inn, 6.85 ERA, 1.97 WHIP

Stewart as primary pitcher: 4 G, 20.1 Inn, 1.33 ERA, 0.93 WHIP

Gonsalves as starter: 4GS, 12.1 Inn, 11.68 ERA, 3.00 WHIP

Gonsalves as primary pitcher: 3 G, 12.1 Inn 1.46 ERA, 1.05 WHIP

 

Numbers speak for themselves. Rays still use it once or twice in their regular 5 man rotation and are very good.

Edited by jdoffing11, 04 May 2019 - 10:11 PM.

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#34 RatherBeGolfing

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 07:06 AM

 

Exactly!!!

 

Why do teams keep rotating 5 starters when they don't have 5 quality starters and the overwhelming number of team don't have 5 quality starters. That is forcing yourself into a failed system. Why not change the system to what you actually have?  

 

Insert "But that's not the way baseball has always been played so it's dumb" take


#35 birdwatcher

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 07:23 AM

 

Glad to see that this unfortunate experiment went out with Molitor and his pitching coaches and the Twins are focusing on their starters pitching longer in games and actually wining... 

 

 

I'll ask again: on what basis have you concluded that Molitor and his coaches had the first thing to do with this? Seems counterintuitive to me, given the fact that they were anything BUT experimental in the use of their bullpen, for example.

 

But I'm in the camp that wants to see five front of the rotation starters as the ideal and would love me a few more pitching duels every season.


#36 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 07:31 AM

Insert "But that's not the way baseball has always been played so it's dumb" take


Yeah... it’ll never work. Innovation is pointless.

The goal is simple. 1400 plus innings need to be thrown. What combination of pitchers will hang the most zeroes. 700 plus innings of starters with 5 plus ERA’s... those guys labeled as innings eaters are not hanging zeroes but teams keep going to them.

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#37 luckylager

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 08:03 AM

not dead yet.jpg

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#38 RatherBeGolfing

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 09:28 AM

 

Yeah... it’ll never work. Innovation is pointless.

The goal is simple. 1400 plus innings need to be thrown. What combination of pitchers will hang the most zeroes. 700 plus innings of starters with 5 plus ERA’s... those guys labeled as innings eaters are not hanging zeroes but teams keep going to them.

 

I agree with you, maybe that wasn't clear in my original post.

 

The joke was that the comeback to the opener seems to always come down to "that's not the way the game has always been played so obviously it can't work"

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#39 Tomj14

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 09:32 AM

 

Yeah... it’ll never work. Innovation is pointless.

The goal is simple. 1400 plus innings need to be thrown. What combination of pitchers will hang the most zeroes. 700 plus innings of starters with 5 plus ERA’s... those guys labeled as innings eaters are not hanging zeroes but teams keep going to them.

I agree with you on the goal of 1400, but does it go against that goal having a pitcher scheduled to just pitch 1 inning? Even with Stanek it looks like they are trying to get more than 1 inning from him this year.


#40 GCTF

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 09:40 AM

I stopped watching baseball when they went away from 9 balls for a walk. 

Endut! Hoch Hech!