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Marwin Gonzalez

versatility 5 for 5 contract third base defense
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#41 stringer bell

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Posted 05 May 2019 - 07:44 AM

Hearkening back to this topic. In the last seven days, Gonzalez has started at three different positions, played very good defense at each position and has gone 6-21 with three walks. 

 

The offense has been satisfactory this week, the defense excellent. This is what I expect from Marwin Gonzalez going forward, coupled with a couple of hot streaks with the bat.

 

Back to the defense, I think it is significant that it was different type plays at each position that highlight why Gonzalez can be so valuable--he made a fine back to the infield play on a blooper while playing first, several nice fielding plays on ground balls at third, and had two fine throws from the outfield for assists while playing left.

 

The bat is showing signs of fully awakening and the rest of Marwin's game is sound. He'll get a lot of playing time at several positions if the Twins' blueprint is correct.

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#42 Riverbrian

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Posted 05 May 2019 - 07:49 AM

This is what he was signed to do. 

 

This is why A.J. Hinch loved him. 

 

This is where the value of the contract is. 

 

 

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#43 Sconnie

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Posted 05 May 2019 - 08:02 AM

A utility type should have been developed in the minors. $20 million.

the last GM got booted for failure to develop players. It takes a long time to fill the pipeline, but I believe Willians Astudillo and Nick Gordon are the utility infielders of the future. Gordon isn’t ready yet.

#44 jokin

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 02:08 AM

 

This is what he was signed to do. 

 

This is why A.J. Hinch loved him. 

 

This is where the value of the contract is. 

 

This is why we should believe historical evidence rather than the clamoring mob.

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#45 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 05:50 AM

 

This is why we should believe historical evidence rather than the clamoring mob.

 

The clamoring mob (small group of picketers) doesn't seem to know what a Marwin type player is. So, they don't understand why a Marwin type player matters at all because they think Rob Wilfong should play every day.:)

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#46 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 06:00 AM

 

the last GM got booted for failure to develop players. It takes a long time to fill the pipeline, but I believe Willians Astudillo and Nick Gordon are the utility infielders of the future. Gordon isn’t ready yet.

 

Let's pretend that Jorge Polanco continues doing what he is doing right now. It is August and Jorge leads all SS's in OPS, he was named to the all-star team. .330 Batting Average with 20 home runs. 

 

Now, let's pretend that Royce Lewis goes nuts as well... he is performing absolutely better than Vlad Jr. nuts. Keith Law and all the pundits are in total agreement... the kid is ready and can help the major league club right now.

 

And the Major League Club is leading the American League Central with the playoffs to prepare for. 

 

Both Polanco and Lewis have been playing SS exclusively. What do you do? 

 

 

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#47 USAFChief

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 06:48 AM

 

 

 

Both Polanco and Lewis have been playing SS exclusively. What do you do? 

Walk the elephant and pitch to the rhino.

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#48 Sconnie

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 09:36 AM

Let's pretend that Jorge Polanco continues doing what he is doing right now. It is August and Jorge leads all SS's in OPS, he was named to the all-star team. .330 Batting Average with 20 home runs.

Now, let's pretend that Royce Lewis goes nuts as well... he is performing absolutely better than Vlad Jr. nuts. Keith Law and all the pundits are in total agreement... the kid is ready and can help the major league club right now.

And the Major League Club is leading the American League Central with the playoffs to prepare for.

Both Polanco and Lewis have been playing SS exclusively. What do you do?

thank God for the wealth of riches? Is this a trick question?

Trade or bench Schoop and move Polanco to 2nd. That doesn’t change the original concept that a GM needs to develop utility players not sign them. Polanco was clearly mismanaged while riding the big league bench and not playing anywhere while accruing mlb service time and Nick Gordon hasn’t panned out yet. The cupboard was bare before signing Marwin (or could have kept and resigned Escobar)
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#49 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 01:15 PM

 

thank God for the wealth of riches? Is this a trick question?

Trade or bench Schoop and move Polanco to 2nd. That doesn’t change the original concept that a GM needs to develop utility players not sign them. Polanco was clearly mismanaged while riding the big league bench and not playing anywhere while accruing mlb service time and Nick Gordon hasn’t panned out yet. The cupboard was bare before signing Marwin (or could have kept and resigned Escobar)

 

Why do you have to trade or bench Schoop?

 

Or Why couldn't Lewis play SS and OF while Polanco plays SS and 2B and Schoop plays 2B and 3B or any combination of all of that. 

 

The way the Twins would have done it in the past... well... that is a trick question because we've never had more talent than we could handle. 

 

Let's say the way most teams would handle this situation was this way: They would slam Polanco over to 2B and bench or trade Schoop like you suggest... or they would debut Lewis out in the OF like the Reds are doing with Senzel or they would keep Lewis down in the minors until next year. 

 

The reason it takes a long time to fill the pipeline is because teams are only trying to develop 9 players at a time when they have a 12 player incubator. On purpose they choose to throw rocks into the other 3 incubator slots. 

 

It's all about increasing the value of your assets. A manager can take a talented deep roster of 12 players and give them all playing time. If a manager only has a 9 player deep roster and 3 rocks... we won't be able to develop 12 at a time and this slows down the pipeline... slows it to a crawl if you fill the incubator slots with Trevor Plouffe types. 

 

Each roster spot is an incubator slots for increasing the value of players. Only using 9 of the 12 slots is wasteful. 

 

In my opinion, Royce Lewis should be getting SS reps and OF reps just like the Dodgers did with Bellinger getting reps at 1B and OF. When he is ready... we have multiple options to utilize him. We don't have to slam him into another position cold or slam Polanco into another position cold and we don't have to wait until next year until we lose Schoop or trade Polanco just to get Lewis some playing time.:)

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#50 spycake

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 01:32 PM

 

Polanco was clearly mismanaged while riding the big league bench and not playing anywhere while accruing mlb service time

Actually Polanco has spent very little time on the MLB bench. I only count ~21 days where he was in MLB but didn't start, over 2.5 seasons, until he started playing everyday at the 2016 trade deadline.

 

And he was already on the 40-man roster before 2014, so we didn't waste option years by calling him up either. (We did mismanage his rookie league assignments in 2010, so he was ineligible for a 4th option year in 2017, but he ultimately turned his season around in MLB all right.)

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#51 nicksaviking

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 01:48 PM

 

Let's pretend that Jorge Polanco continues doing what he is doing right now. It is August and Jorge leads all SS's in OPS, he was named to the all-star team. .330 Batting Average with 20 home runs. 

 

Now, let's pretend that Royce Lewis goes nuts as well... he is performing absolutely better than Vlad Jr. nuts. Keith Law and all the pundits are in total agreement... the kid is ready and can help the major league club right now.

 

And the Major League Club is leading the American League Central with the playoffs to prepare for. 

 

Both Polanco and Lewis have been playing SS exclusively. What do you do? 

 

Schedule a parade?

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#52 Sconnie

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 02:19 PM

 

Why do you have to trade or bench Schoop?

 

Or Why couldn't Lewis play SS and OF while Polanco plays SS and 2B and Schoop plays 2B and 3B or any combination of all of that. 

 

The way the Twins would have done it in the past... well... that is a trick question because we've never had more talent than we could handle. 

 

Let's say the way most teams would handle this situation was this way: They would slam Polanco over to 2B and bench or trade Schoop like you suggest... or they would debut Lewis out in the OF like the Reds are doing with Senzel or they would keep Lewis down in the minors until next year. 

 

The reason it takes a long time to fill the pipeline is because teams are only trying to develop 9 players at a time when they have a 12 player incubator. On purpose they choose to throw rocks into the other 3 incubator slots. 

 

It's all about increasing the value of your assets. A manager can take a talented deep roster of 12 players and give them all playing time. If a manager only has a 9 player deep roster and 3 rocks... we won't be able to develop 12 at a time and this slows down the pipeline... slows it to a crawl if you fill the incubator slots with Trevor Plouffe types. 

 

Each roster spot is an incubator slots for increasing the value of players. Only using 9 of the 12 slots is wasteful. 

 

In my opinion, Royce Lewis should be getting SS reps and OF reps just like the Dodgers did with Bellinger getting reps at 1B and OF. When he is ready... we have multiple options to utilize him. We don't have to slam him into another position cold or slam Polanco into another position cold and we don't have to wait until next year until we lose Schoop or trade Polanco just to get Lewis some playing time.:)

Preach!

 

 

This gets us back to the original topic and why they signed Marwin to begin with, and agree that the best way to develop a team, is to obsolete the utility infielder by having a starting 12 rather than a starting 9 and 3 bench players. But again, the team hasn't been developing 9, let alone 12.

 

Further, the question wasn't "What would I do to get Lewis up to the bigs faster?" The question was "What would I do if Lewis was ready now?".

 

If Lewis was ready now, I'd make a move to improve pitching in the bigs by trading Schoop, and then get Lewis up here. Schoop isn't a multi-position guy, neither is Polanco, neither is Lewis. 

 

If I were remaking the Twins development organization over the last three years, I'd follow your template. It's a good one. It's also why I'm keepin Marwin over Schoop

 

Edited by Sconnie, 06 May 2019 - 02:24 PM.

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#53 birdwatcher

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 02:29 PM

 

The clamoring mob (small group of picketers) doesn't seem to know what a Marwin type player is. So, they don't understand why a Marwin type player matters at all because they think Rob Wilfong should play every day.:)

 

 

Well, yeah, Rob Wilfong SHOULD play every day.

 

For the Angels, in exchange for a prospect with 33 MLB AB's named Tom Brunansky.

 

Off point, I know.

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#54 jkcarew

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 02:39 PM

 

In my opinion, Royce Lewis should be getting SS reps and OF reps just like the Dodgers did with Bellinger getting reps at 1B and OF. When he is ready... we have multiple options to utilize him. We don't have to slam him into another position cold or slam Polanco into another position cold and we don't have to wait until next year until we lose Schoop or trade Polanco just to get Lewis some playing time.:)

It'd be a complete waste of time giving Lewis anything other than SS reps in the minors...up until the time they think he can't be a MLB shortstop. Shortstop is the most demanding position on the field (other than catcher)...it's literally why they talk about a SS prospect being able to 'stick' at the position. From '74 to '84, Robin Yount started about 1500 games at short and zero in the outfield. The following year, they threw him into the outfield...center, no less. It worked out OK.

Edited by jkcarew, 06 May 2019 - 02:40 PM.


#55 spycake

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 03:34 PM

Well, yeah, Rob Wilfong SHOULD play every day.

For the Angels, in exchange for a prospect with 33 MLB AB's named Tom Brunansky.

Off point, I know.


Take it to the generic trade thread. I'm tired of everyone rehashing the Rob Wilfong trade on every thread around here! :)
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#56 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 05:22 PM

 

Preach!

 

 

This gets us back to the original topic and why they signed Marwin to begin with, and agree that the best way to develop a team, is to obsolete the utility infielder by having a starting 12 rather than a starting 9 and 3 bench players. But again, the team hasn't been developing 9, let alone 12.

 

Further, the question wasn't "What would I do to get Lewis up to the bigs faster?" The question was "What would I do if Lewis was ready now?".

 

If Lewis was ready now, I'd make a move to improve pitching in the bigs by trading Schoop, and then get Lewis up here. Schoop isn't a multi-position guy, neither is Polanco, neither is Lewis. 

 

If I were remaking the Twins development organization over the last three years, I'd follow your template. It's a good one. It's also why I'm keepin Marwin over Schoop

 

Preach! (High Five)

 

Actually, I still wouldn't trade Schoop. I'd be just fine with Lewis, Polanco and Schoop on the same roster.

 

In August when it is time to make the decision that I suggested, We still don't know who will get hurt or what we will need for Game 4 of the World Series. A manager can figure it out without making Schoop get splinters in his tush.  

 

Schoop could be a multi-position guy... I'd be willing to wager that he could play some 3B, SS or other positions, maybe even OF. 

 

The point of the exercise I suggested was to point out that you can develop super utility and get those super utility results fairly quickly and it can start in the minor leagues right now.

 

You are on the exact same page as I am... teams will stop themselves from having a roster of Lewis, Polanco and Schoop on the same roster because of the presence of Polanco and Schoop and the desire to get Lewis everyday playing time... and you end up with Lewis waiting in the minors for the roster to clear space for him and Adrianza sitting on the bench watching and maybe Adrianza sitting on the bench next year as well, watching Lewis and Polanco after Schoop is traded. 

 

When I was working in Radio... I got to have dinner with Dave Ramsey. Just making conversation, I asked him what is the biggest mistake that people make in regards to their personal finances? His reply made perfect sense to me. Without pausing to think about it... He said "Car Payments". He says that if people would simply save that car payment and put it aside, letting it accumulate until you have enough to buy the car with cash and repeat for the next car plus the trade-in value and so forth and you have eliminated car debt while saving money toward retirement. 

 

It made perfect sense and it's a mistake that most of us make. (Including myself... I still haven't followed his advice).

 

Now if Dave Ramsey would have asked me... What is the biggest mistake that Baseball General Managers make in regards to player development? (He didn't). I would have replied... Wasting 25% of your limited precious major league development roster space on players you have no intention of developing.:)

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#57 Riverbrian

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 05:46 PM

 

It'd be a complete waste of time giving Lewis anything other than SS reps in the minors...up until the time they think he can't be a MLB shortstop. Shortstop is the most demanding position on the field (other than catcher)...it's literally why they talk about a SS prospect being able to 'stick' at the position. From '74 to '84, Robin Yount started about 1500 games at short and zero in the outfield. The following year, they threw him into the outfield...center, no less. It worked out OK.

 

Lewis was an example... we can do this with anyone but since Lewis is the example... OK... I'll say that It wouldn't be a complete waste. If being able to play another position allows the team to get his bat into the lineup quicker and into the lineup, I'd rather they did that instead of not utilizing Lewis at all because Polanco is performing at an all-star level and Lewis plays the same position.  

 

Javier Baez played SS exclusively in the minors until age 21. Until 2014 when he added 2B to his resume at AAA Iowa and also with the Cubs.

 

In 2015 at age of 22, Baez added 3B as he played 2B, 3B and SS in both Iowa and with the Cubs.

 

In 2016, at the age of 23, he was full blown Super Utility playing all infield positions plus occasional OF mostly with the Cubs but also the same for a stint in Iowa. 

 

In 2017, he split time between 2B and SS with the occasional 3B and OF.  

 

In 2018, He split time between 2B, 3B and SS.

 

This year... He's been an exclusive SS and I've heard numerous people express that he is one of the best at it. Whatever they did with Baez by moving him around... it didn't seem to hurt. 

 

So... I'm ok with leaving him at SS in the minors but I disagree that it would be a complete waste to play him elsewhere in preparation of finding a major league landing spot based on the context of the roster. 

 

Super Utility can be developed in Rochester and Pensacola before it reaches Minnesota.:)

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#58 ChrisKnutson

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 07:01 PM

Despite being a Marwin critic from the day he was signed, I do understand the immense value in having someone like him on the roster. 1) capable of playing nearly every position at a high level 2) providing days off for the “regulars” 3) serving as insurance if or when someone goes down due to injury, or poor performance. I’ll admit it, we’re better off with Marwin, than without, regardless of his slow start offensively. I mean, he’s making almost every single play and is starting to heat up at the plate a little bit. And with Sano coming back very soon, we’ll finally get to see the true value of “Swiss G.”

However, with nearly all of Twin’s core position players (hopefully Sano too) starting to establish themselves as solid big leaguers, along with the plethora quality infield/outfield prospects nearing their debuts (Lewis, Kirilloff, Gordon, Wade, Arraez, Rooker, and Raley), I’m not so sure the Twins even need Marwin beyond 2019. I mean, didn’t we, for the most part, sign him as insurance for the possibility that 2018 might repeat itself?? So far that doesn’t seem to be the case, and if that still remains true by the end of the season, I wouldn’t be against the idea of dealing him in the offseason for pitching.

#59 snepp

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 08:00 PM

 

Schedule a parade?

 

Yes.

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#60 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 08:30 PM

Preach! (High Five)

Actually, I still wouldn't trade Schoop. I'd be just fine with Lewis, Polanco and Schoop on the same roster.

In August when it is time to make the decision that I suggested, We still don't know who will get hurt or what we will need for Game 4 of the World Series. A manager can figure it out without making Schoop get splinters in his tush.

Schoop could be a multi-position guy... I'd be willing to wager that he could play some 3B, SS or other positions, maybe even OF.

The point of the exercise I suggested was to point out that you can develop super utility and get those super utility results fairly quickly and it can start in the minor leagues right now.

You are on the exact same page as I am... teams will stop themselves from having a roster of Lewis, Polanco and Schoop on the same roster because of the presence of Polanco and Schoop and the desire to get Lewis everyday playing time... and you end up with Lewis waiting in the minors for the roster to clear space for him and Adrianza sitting on the bench watching and maybe Adrianza sitting on the bench next year as well, watching Lewis and Polanco after Schoop is traded.

When I was working in Radio... I got to have dinner with Dave Ramsey. Just making conversation, I asked him what is the biggest mistake that people make in regards to their personal finances? His reply made perfect sense to me. Without pausing to think about it... He said "Car Payments". He says that if people would simply save that car payment and put it aside, letting it accumulate until you have enough to buy the car with cash and repeat for the next car plus the trade-in value and so forth and you have eliminated car debt while saving money toward retirement.

It made perfect sense and it's a mistake that most of us make. (Including myself... I still haven't followed his advice).

Now if Dave Ramsey would have asked me... What is the biggest mistake that Baseball General Managers make in regards to player development? (He didn't). I would have replied... Wasting 25% of your limited precious major league development roster space on players you have no intention of developing. :)

That's probably great advice for those born with a silver spoon.
How does he propose common folk get to work and back with no car for 5 to 7 years while they save for a cash purchase?

Not everyone has access to reliable public transportation. And not everyone can make public transportation work for their jobs even if they do have access.

This is honestly the most preposterous "advice" I've ever heard, there is a reason that nobody but the 1% do it this way.

Why not take it one step further and advise people to live in a van by the river for 30 years while they save to buy a house with cash?

Edited by Mr. Brooks, 06 May 2019 - 08:33 PM.

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