Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
The same great Twins Daily coverage, now for the Vikings.

The Store


Photo

Article: Where Does Carroll Fit In?

  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#1 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 2,063 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:27 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...-Carroll-Fit-In

#2 one_eyed_jack

one_eyed_jack

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 590 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:38 PM

Good question. We'll have to see what happens in the offseason, but I'd say bring him back in a utility role, and maybe try to deal him at the deadline. We won't get much for him, but reliable veteran guys like that often draw interest from contenders.

I kind of cringed when we signed Carroll, but I've come to appreciate him. He may not be the most talented guy, but he's a true professional. Regardless of the situation or the score, he plays hard, and he plays smart.

I wish we could put Carroll's attitude and ethic into Casilla's body.

#3 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,076 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:48 PM

I am not sure why he lost favor at SS. He was good enough there. I think his role is utility, and we should hope so, because that likely means that Dozier and Florimon have been successful in the middle infield. Carroll filling in for injured players and backing up all three of those infield spots will get him enough playing time to keep his value high, but probably keep his PAs in the 300-350 range.

#4 stringer bell

stringer bell

    Confirmed Hacker

  • Twins News Team
  • 3,909 posts
  • LocationZumbrota MN

Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:18 AM

Carroll is what he is. He's never had a regular position and he shouldn't even with the last place err....fourth place Twins. His maximum playing time should be as a "10th regular" filling in at all three infield spots.

I think Carroll has been decent in the field and just a tick above what I expected with the bat. He is void of extra-base sock and he'll be 39 next season, but, on balance, he's been the Twins best middle infielder.

#5 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 8,758 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:24 AM

I was pretty "meh" about the Carroll signing when it happened and still feel that way. He's a decent bench/complementary player but nothing more than that. He's the type of piece a contender needs to keep the MI fresh through a long season.

But I'm glad he was able to dispel the silly notion some had where he'd suddenly stop taking walks because he moved to the AL and no longer hits in front of the pitcher.

#6 SarasotaBill

SarasotaBill

    Member

  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:35 AM

Carroll has been the best middle infielder.

It should be Carroll and Florimon to start next year.

Dozier and Escobar to start in AAA.

#7 snepp

snepp

    Curve Hanger

  • Twins Mods
  • 4,239 posts
  • LocationSioux Falls

Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:42 AM

The only thing Florimon "should" be is a reason for the team to look at potential upgrades.


I've been having a lot of trouble wrapping my head around the penciling in of Florimon, not only for a roster spot, but a starting spot no less. What am I missing?

Edited by snepp, 24 September 2012 - 07:47 AM.


#8 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,450 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:42 AM

A middle infielder who makes pretty much all the routine plays and can post a .730 OPS... that's not exactly bad, and as of right now, what is the better option? I think he's been a very solid contributor, even with the bat. He's just a consummate professional out there. And, if he gets the playing time next season to guarantee 2014, good for him. Plus, it's only $2M which is very reasonable even if he does become "just a utility guy."

#9 COtwin

COtwin

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 113 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:32 AM

Haven't we been in this situation for like 6 of the last 8 years. Carroll is a utility infielder. He is capable of producing at the plate, but we are seeing his ceiling right now. So what if he is performing now. When he was handed a starting role, he helped kill the season, and now that he has zero pressure he is producing. Pass. He should not become a lock for even second base anytime soon. He should need to compete for his job next year. Dozier, Florimon, Escobar, and Carroll are very similar in my mind. Yes, the last two can play third, but that doesn't make them worthy of a scholarship. I would rather give Dozier and Florimon a chance to start the year, with Escobar or Carroll as utility. I have a difficult time trusting that Carroll will produce at this level consistently next year. My two sense :)

#10 SeanS7921

SeanS7921

    Member

  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:35 AM

Trying to understand why Carroll is an average fielder? Is UZR for his career which is extensive is way above average at 2B and 3B. At 2nd he has fielded over 4500+ innings which is a great sample size. He is excellent at 2B. He is average at SS and this year he has fielded the position above average. Combine that with a decent average and OBP and he is a pretty solid guy to have around for the price. Starting 2B or playing wherever needed should be 100%.

#11 OldManWinter

OldManWinter

    Member

  • Members
  • 80 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:11 AM

Carroll has some timely hits, does not usually beat himself. Smart-steady-stable is not a bad thing to add to a young infield.

Don't make it over complicated, if he gets enough plate appeareances next next year to guarantee a third year it will be because he earned them.

#12 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 8,758 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:13 AM

Carroll has some timely hits, does not usually beat himself. Smart-steady-stable is not a bad thing to add to a young infield.

Don't make it over complicated, if he gets enough plate appeareances next next year to guarantee a third year it will be because he earned them.


Agreed.

#13 nokomismod

nokomismod

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 271 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:40 AM

Carroll has been the best middle infielder.

It should be Carroll and Florimon to start next year.

Dozier and Escobar to start in AAA.


I'd be okay with this. Maybe swap Florimon and Escobar and let Dozier and Florimon earn a spot on the big league team with good play at Rochester.

#14 Boom Boom

Boom Boom

    Hydraulic Choppers

  • Members
  • 1,110 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:46 AM

A middle infielder who makes pretty much all the routine plays and can post a .730 OPS... that's not exactly bad, and as of right now, what is the better option? I think he's been a very solid contributor, even with the bat. He's just a consummate professional out there. And, if he gets the playing time next season to guarantee 2014, good for him. Plus, it's only $2M which is very reasonable even if he does become "just a utility guy."


This is what I was saying in the thread about Florimon potentially being the opening day shortstop.

Florimon obviously has the range and the arm, but he's got a bit of "stone hands" to him... I've seen far too many routine groundballs clank off of him. And I don't think Florimon will ever be as good offensively as Carroll.

I think Carroll will get enough plate appearances, by hook or by crook, to earn that 2014 option. And if he does, keep in mind that a) it's a player option, so there's a chance he'd rather retire at that point, and B) if he still wants to play, he might rather go play for another team by then.

#15 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,450 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:53 AM

I have a difficult time trusting that Carroll will produce at this level consistently next year. My two sense :)


Even though he has done it for a lot of years? That's the definition of consistency.

#16 COtwin

COtwin

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 113 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:55 AM

Carroll has some timely hits, does not usually beat himself. Smart-steady-stable is not a bad thing to add to a young infield.

Don't make it over complicated, if he gets enough plate appeareances next next year to guarantee a third year it will be because he earned them.


I am going to have to disagree on that point. Through the first four months of the year Carroll's AB/OPS. April-84/.570, May-87/.607, June-80/.710, July- 71/.506. Without June in there he was close to a .560 OPS, pathetic. Even with June it was only around .600. How is that earning AB? True he does play good defense, but we have some young guys that do ok in the field. Dozier, Florimon, and Escobar could all end up as utility types, or maybe one breaks through. We won't know if Carroll takes 500 ABs next year. To answer Nick's original question, Carroll fits in on a team that is trying for the playoffs, as a high AB utility guy. Which we are definitely not.

#17 Twins Twerp

Twins Twerp

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 791 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:09 AM

He needs to be used as a Nick Punto. No way should he be an everyday player at any position. His productivity this year is below average, and the dude is going to be 40. He is going to slip. His defense is OK, better than the younger guys, but average in relativity to the rest of the league. IMO, we will sign/trade for a shortstop or second baseman next year. Dozier/Floriman/Escobar will start at the other postion, and Carrol will be a bench player, which he should be.

#18 Dave T

Dave T

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 133 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:33 AM

New team, new league, new pitchers, new manager, new role (starting SS). I think it just took him a while to learn all of the above. Plus, I think he's more comfortable when the spotlight doesn't shine so brightly on him as starting SS. He's the utility player Gardy always wanted: + infielder at multiple positions who can hit as well as a starter.

#19 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 2,063 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:55 AM

But I'm glad he was able to dispel the silly notion some had where he'd suddenly stop taking walks because he moved to the AL and no longer hits in front of the pitcher.

There might have been some people arguing that particular notion, but I think the more legitimate concern was that he'd have trouble maintaining his overall production while hitting in front of Joe Mauer as opposed to an NL pitcher. You just aren't going to get as many good pitches to hit in that setting. He's continued to control the strike zone well, but when batting in the No. 2 spot this year Carroll is hitting .250 with a .603 OPS – a sizable drop-off from his .700+ OPS in each of the past two years with the Dodgers. He's been better hitting at the bottom of the lineup, which is pretty clearly where he belongs.

#20 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 8,758 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:31 AM


But I'm glad he was able to dispel the silly notion some had where he'd suddenly stop taking walks because he moved to the AL and no longer hits in front of the pitcher.

There might have been some people arguing that particular notion, but I think the more legitimate concern was that he'd have trouble maintaining his overall production while hitting in front of Joe Mauer as opposed to an NL pitcher. You just aren't going to get as many good pitches to hit in that setting. He's continued to control the strike zone well, but when batting in the No. 2 spot this year Carroll is hitting .250 with a .603 OPS – a sizable drop-off from his .700+ OPS in each of the past two years with the Dodgers. He's been better hitting at the bottom of the lineup, which is pretty clearly where he belongs.


Yeah, that is a legitimate concern. Hitting in front of Mauer, the pitcher is going to try his damnedest to get you out before facing the meat of the lineup. On the other hand, I think we can all agree that Jamey Carroll is not a #2 hitter, despite the fact that he plays second base. As strange as it sounds, I've heard that other teams don't automatically insert a middle infielder in the two-spot in the lineup.

#21 70charger

70charger

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,145 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:50 AM

Trying to understand why Carroll is an average fielder? Is UZR for his career which is extensive is way above average at 2B and 3B. At 2nd he has fielded over 4500+ innings which is a great sample size. He is excellent at 2B. He is average at SS and this year he has fielded the position above average. Combine that with a decent average and OBP and he is a pretty solid guy to have around for the price. Starting 2B or playing wherever needed should be 100%.


It's ironic, isn't it, that UZR requires a large sample size, but when it gets too large it's useless again. But it is.

Looking at Carroll's career numbers when he's 39 years old tells us nothing about what he is now. I'm happy for him that he's been a good fielder for a decade or so, but he can't be coasting on his numbers from when he was 31.

#22 joeboo_22

joeboo_22

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 173 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:37 PM

The problem I have with Jamey Carroll, isn't what he does, or doesn't do for that matter. But the fact that he is on this team. Maybe I'm completely wrong here, but I feel Jamey is the type of guy on a playoff team, a guy who can play 3 infield positions, make the plays, hit .240, get on base, etc. The thing is he is what 38-39 years old? The Twins biggest hole (non-starting pitching) is middle infield, and I just feel like if he was a true utility guy, I'd be fine with it, but Gardy loves to give these type of players a starting role. The Twins should try to figure out who is there SS and 2B for the future next year, whether its Dozier, Florimon, Escobar, or someone else, and by giving Jamey Caroll 140 starts at 1 or the other just sets it back more.

#23 Steve Penz

Steve Penz

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 239 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:33 PM

[quote name='joeboo_22']The problem I have with Jamey Carroll, isn't what he does, or doesn't do for that matter. But the fact that he is on this team.

Agreed. I like Jamie Carroll. I think after 2011 the twins needed a steady, professional person in the infield. He did what he is supposed to although a few more hits would have been nice. I have enjoyed watching him. With the state of the team, what is the benefit to having him there now? The team can use this opportunity to try and groom a future player. If he is around he needs to be utility and nothing more.

#24 TwinsMusings

TwinsMusings

    Member

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:45 PM

In 2013, Jamey Carroll should be a utility player. His value is highest in that role in part because he is a great role-model for the younger players to learn from and emulate. Professional attitude and consistent effort from the bench is essential and he provides it. If Carroll reaches the number of AB to trigger the option for 2014, it will be less that he has "earned" them and more that one or more of the starters are injured or faltering.

#25 twinzgrl

twinzgrl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 150 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:02 PM

I like him. I like his hustle and ability to play multiple positions. Great utility guy.

#26 Jim H

Jim H

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 439 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:12 PM

I suspect that the Twins will start 2013 with 3 middle infielders. Carroll is likely to be one of the three. Who the other 2 will be, is anyone's guess at this point. I assume Dozier, Florimon, and Escobar will be candidates to be in that mix and I wouldn't be surprised if Ryan brings in somebody else.

I think Carroll is largely best utilized as a utility infielder. Still, if he outplays his competition, than he will play more. It is probably way to early to guess who the starters will be. Largely because I don't think the Twins have any idea yet, whether they will give Florimon, Dozier, and Escobar the chances to win the jobs in spring training, or whether they need to bring in more competition.

#27 Jim H

Jim H

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 439 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:27 PM

Actually, I think the real question here, is there anyone in this group who can play shortstop everyday? The Twins might not be looking for a long term answer, it is possible there is a long term answer in the lower minors, but they sure would like to find an answer to that question for at least a year or two. They might go into spring training with Florimon, Dozier, Escobar, and Carroll if they are reasonably sure one of these guys can handle short at least adequately as an everyday player.

#28 SeanS7921

SeanS7921

    Member

  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:42 PM

  • Trying to understand why Carroll is an average fielder? Is UZR for his career which is extensive is way above average at 2B and 3B. At 2nd he has fielded over 4500+ innings which is a great sample size. He is excellent at 2B. He is average at SS and this year he has fielded the position above average. Combine that with a decent average and OBP and he is a pretty solid guy to have around for the price. Starting 2B or playing wherever needed should be 100%.


It's ironic, isn't it, that UZR requires a large sample size, but when it gets too large it's useless again. But it is.

Looking at Carroll's career numbers when he's 39 years old tells us nothing about what he is now. I'm happy for him that he's been a good fielder for a decade or so, but he can't be coasting on his numbers from when he was 31.


He isn't coasting from numbres when he was 31. His UZR at all three positions this year is outstanding. So, I'm not sure why you are all about his numbers when he was 31. You can look right now and see he has been dominate with a +UZR for all positions....

#29 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:20 PM

once again ron gardenhire is showing his true colors.....jamie carroll is a utility player...he is a very good utility player,this year he has had more at bats at age 38 then any time in his career, like nick punto and many others ronnie wants to make them starters which they are not...carroll needs to be what he has always been ,and always will be, a good solid replacementfor the infield

go jaime

#30 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 4,736 posts
  • LocationLake Tahoe, Nevada

Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:25 PM

Plus, it's only $2M which is very reasonable even if he does become "just a utility guy."


If you had a roster full of him, you'd be spending only $50M. Of course you wouldn't want a roster like that. (You need Drew Butera to pitch.) But he's not exactly breaking the bank versus paying some AAA guy at minimum. So yes, I agree he's been a good signing.