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Article: Span's Last Hurrah?

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:53 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...n-s-Last-Hurrah

#2 Shane Wahl

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:08 PM

Given that Ben Revere's OPS continues to plummet, trading Span seems again to be completely foolish. Parmelee in RF is also not a good idea (for a full season). Ben Revere does not look like a top-of-the-order guy at all.

#3 jm3319

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:15 PM

Given that Ben Revere's OPS continues to plummet, trading Span seems again to be completely foolish. Parmelee in RF is also not a good idea (for a full season). Ben Revere does not look like a top-of-the-order guy at all.



If we can get some MLB ready pitching as well as some pitching prospect(s) then I say we worry about defense in the outfield later. I'll easily trade a little offense and defense from a team that's absolutely terrible at pitching. Having said that, it still needs to be the right return and not just a trade for the sake of trading him.

#4 Shane Wahl

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 12:01 AM

Given that Ben Revere's OPS continues to plummet, trading Span seems again to be completely foolish. Parmelee in RF is also not a good idea (for a full season). Ben Revere does not look like a top-of-the-order guy at all.



If we can get some MLB ready pitching as well as some pitching prospect(s) then I say we worry about defense in the outfield later. I'll easily trade a little offense and defense from a team that's absolutely terrible at pitching. Having said that, it still needs to be the right return and not just a trade for the sake of trading him.


The Twins could also sign two pitchers for at most 20 million a year for 2/3 years combined and keep the offense intact.

#5 Montecore

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 04:35 AM

Don't trade him. He's a steadying presence, an unselfish, nice guy, and a good leadoff man. He has more value staying a Twin than leaving for what exactly?

#6 mike wants wins

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:48 AM

Another thread of do not trade him, he is good......how do you expect this team to get better if it will not trade good players? Remember, this year they cut payroll, and Willingham is their biggest free agent contract ever.

#7 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:15 AM

We do have outfield prospects coming up so I would reluctantly agree to trading Span, but only if it immediately helps the rotaton. I would not trade him for prospects only.

#8 nokomismod

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:19 AM

Since we only have ~1 starting pitcher that might be good next year, I agree that a Span trade for pitching has to be considered. Even if we sign two solid free agent starting pitchers, we need more.

#9 mk

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:30 AM

Another thread of do not trade him, he is good......how do you expect this team to get better if it will not trade good players? Remember, this year they cut payroll, and Willingham is their biggest free agent contract ever.


Who would bring back a greatest return in trade: Span, Revere, Willingham, Morneau, or Parmelee?

#10 JB_Iowa

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:52 AM

I like Denard Span and in reading tweets among him and the younger outfielders/outfield prospects in the past, it seems like he was probably a good influence on them.

But I agree with this question from mikewantswins: how do you expect this team to get better if it will not trade good players?

Thinking back to the Bill Smith tenure, it seems like one of the big problems was that they traded primarily for short-term "chips" to improve the immediate hand. That may have not been stupid in the sense that the rest of the team was good and they only need certain chips to keep them "contending" in the A.L. Central but it does seem to have hurt the long-term health of this team.

Even though the Twins now have more money to spend than they did beforeTF, they still need to replace aging players with younger, less expensive players -- and the most significant place they have an opportunity to do so is the outfield. Replacing Span isn't a huge cost savings .... but trading him to fill more significant positions of need is important. I feel the same way about Willingham and Morneau (although the timing may be better for Morneau at the deadline).

It's good to form attachments with players -- but you also have to let them go sometimes.

#11 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:02 AM

Span is my favorite Twin and that alone has enough merit for keeping him.

#12 Steve Penz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:15 AM

Another thread of do not trade him, he is good......how do you expect this team to get better if it will not trade good players? Remember, this year they cut payroll, and Willingham is their biggest free agent contract ever.


I completely agree. Within reason, the teams needs to make whatever move in order to make this team better. I like Span, he has been a good player. But, I think there are some things that have been forgotten. We hear so many say he is a good guy and in general I would agree except for two things. Rumors were that he was not willing to play the corner outfield spot and that he kept quiet about an injury in July/Aug of this year. I am lacking details on both of these topics but didn't we hear that buzz? Towards the start of this year when many were saying Revere should take over center he was not willing to play LF or RF. Also, part of his extended absence was supposedly due not having a true idea of his injury. Many would want to put that on our medial staff but seems to me I heard Span did not help the situation by not being forthcoming.

Setting that aside, if the team acquired a few pitchers or a middle infielder by making moves which involved other players and we were left with Span on the team I don't think that would be a bad thing. He is a nice player. However, we absolutely do NOT need to keep him. Soon he will be quite redundant if young outfielders continue to progress.

#13 mike wants wins

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:33 AM

My point was, in the morneau thread, people said do nit trade him, he is too good to trade. They said that in the Willingham threads earlier this year. Now in the span thread too. Do you really expect them to sign two free agent pitchers for more than they have ever spent on one free agent? If not, you have to be willing to trade someone of value to get value in return. They should have done that this year.

#14 Steve Penz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:49 AM

My point was, in the morneau thread, people said do nit trade him, he is too good to trade. They said that in the Willingham threads earlier this year. Now in the span thread too. Do you really expect them to sign two free agent pitchers for more than they have ever spent on one free agent? If not, you have to be willing to trade someone of value to get value in return. They should have done that this year.


I don't know about this year because we don't know what was on the table but in general I agree.

Also, how can we expect young players to shine one day if they are not promoted and given the chance? That cannot be done if their spaces are full. The ages and contracts of Morneau, Span and Willingham will not allow them to be on the next relevant team. GGrulz is typing that same message at this moment.

#15 beckmt

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:31 AM

We have a glut of outfielders coming up and next year will probably not matter as to who we have. It is time to see what we have on the farm and trade for pitching prospects as the FA market is both going to be crowded and expensive. So any chips that do not cost a lot of money should be traded to teams that have a surplus of young pitching. That would mean that 2 out of 3 (Span, Willingham, and Parmalee) should be traded if the deal is right. We have both Arcia and Hicks who could be here next year and would not make a big difference in performance.

#16 Steve Penz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:40 AM

We have a glut of outfielders coming up and next year will probably not matter as to who we have. It is time to see what we have on the farm and trade for pitching prospects as the FA market is both going to be crowded and expensive. So any chips that do not cost a lot of money should be traded to teams that have a surplus of young pitching. That would mean that 2 out of 3 (Span, Willingham, and Parmalee) should be traded if the deal is right. We have both Arcia and Hicks who could be here next year and would not make a big difference in performance.


Why is morneau not on your list? I have 14 million reasons why he should be.

#17 Twins Twerp

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:49 AM

Span will bring back some decent pitching, no doubt about it. The question should be, what can Morneau bring back in a trade, and how ready is Parmalee to take over full time at 1st? Parmalee is not a RF. If anything, the Twins put Mastrianni at Right untill Arcia or Hicks come up.

#18 Nick Nelson

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:26 AM

To me, the difference between trading Span and Morneau is that you'd be dealing Span with his value at a relative high point (I don't think he's looked this appealing to outside GMs in several years) whereas the same is not true for Justin. I'm a firm believer that Morneau has a big year on deck, but given his contract and lack of sustained success since injury, trading him right now would be little more than a salary dump.

That doesn't really help the team much unless you're interested in stuffing Pohlad's pocket. Obviously Parmelee in RF is not ideal but I think you can live with lacking range in the corners, especially with a stud like Revere up the middle.

Also, to the people who claim to be unwilling to move Span: you have got to be kidding me. I'm a huge fan of his, but he is the definition of expendable given this team's circumstances.

#19 Steve Penz

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:32 AM

To me, the difference between trading Span and Morneau is that you'd be dealing Span with his value at a relative high point (I don't think he's looked this appealing to outside GMs in several years) whereas the same is not true for Justin. I'm a firm believer that Morneau has a big year on deck, but given his contract and lack of sustained success since injury, trading him right now would be little more than a salary dump.

That doesn't really help the team much unless you're interested in stuffing Pohlad's pocket. Obviously Parmelee in RF is not ideal but I think you can live with lacking range in the corners, especially with a stud like Revere up the middle.

Also, to the people who claim to be unwilling to move Span: you have got to be kidding me. I'm a huge fan of his, but he is the definition of expendable given this team's circumstances.


Agreed and this is why I feel that to hold on to Morneau and risk waiting until the 2013 deadline may be a solid move.

#20 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:43 AM

Definately trade Span now.
Yes, Revere's OPS is dropping and yes there are questions on whether he is a long term option as a leadoff/starting CF. The nice thing though is he at least can be a decent stop gap until Hicks is ready to take over CF full time in 2014.

Morneau has value, but his will only continue to go up if he stays healthy/productive into the 2013 season, in a perfect world a team gets desperate for a bat at the deadline and you have another Beltran/Wheeler trade on your hands.

Parmlee in RF doesn't kill you, and more then likely he will get some starts at 1B and DH as well.

#21 70charger

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:44 AM

These types of threads tend to devolve into trade him vs. don't trade him, but there's so much assumed that there really isn't any information there. I bet that even the hard core don't trade him types would swap him straight up for Verlander. Right?

My position is that we should be fielding offers, asking for good pitchers, and just seeing what happens. If nothing worthwhile is on offer, keep him. (And I say that even though I think we could very well get some pretty good pitching in return.) We have to be agnostic about whether he gets traded, because we don't know what's out there. Generally we know what we need, but whether it's available - that's a different story.

#22 ashburyjohn

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:57 AM

Another thread of do not trade him, he is good......how do you expect this team to get better if it will not trade good players?


The key is not simply to trade good players - that can result in a zero-sum (or worse) game that fixes a weakness by creating another one. Instead, you trade where there is oversupply at one position to address a weakness at another. The classic was trading AJ when Mauer was ready, resulting in some good talent coming back and no loss at all in the catcher's slot. Trading Span looks like a similar case, with minimal dropoff, and for that reason I support a favorable trade involving Span, but not simply trading him because he's good.

#23 nicksaviking

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 12:18 PM

Span has to be moved at some point, why not do it while his value is high and the team isn't contending.

Besides, trading him will likely improve the outfield defense shortly. Granted, while Parmelee fills in until Hicks is ready it will be weaker, but adding Hicks will make the outfield better. Currently neither Span or Willingham are willing to budge from their postions, which is forcing the Twins to push Revere out of postion to RF.

Seeing as Span is hurting the team by not playing RF now, does anyone really think Span and/or Gardenhire is going to be interested in a position change to enable Hicks' best talents later? or Buxton or Kepler or Benson? Not only do the Twins have a ton of OF talent, most of them are CF and by the time they are ready, it's possible all of them would be an upgrade over Span who seems reluctant to cede the position. He's got to go sometime, might as well do it in a rebuilding year.

#24 COtwin

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:23 PM

I think that this is the time to trade Span. Like so many others have said, we have young players to plug in and eventually our defense will even see an upgrade because of the move. However I think it is unfair to Span to blame him for not shifting around the outfield. Does he want to move away from Center, probably not. Is that his call to make, probably not. But more important than either is that his trade value is much higher as a quality Centerfielder than as a great defensive corner outfielder. We are trying to get people to buy high on him, that means advertising him at a higher value position.

#25 Montecore

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:53 PM

These types of threads tend to devolve into trade him vs. don't trade him, but there's so much assumed that there really isn't any information there. I bet that even the hard core don't trade him types would swap him straight up for Verlander. Right?

My position is that we should be fielding offers, asking for good pitchers, and just seeing what happens. If nothing worthwhile is on offer, keep him. (And I say that even though I think we could very well get some pretty good pitching in return.) We have to be agnostic about whether he gets traded, because we don't know what's out there. Generally we know what we need, but whether it's available - that's a different story.


Sorry, but the Span for Verlander scenario is inane and pointless. To the point - no team would be foolish enough to offer a good pitcher for Span. It'll be a Matt Capps for Ramos bonanza redux. Is J.C. Romero still in the league? That's the kind of offer they'll get. See if you can luck out and get somebody potentially good for Parmalee. Maybe shop Willingham as terrific as he's been this year. But, there'll be no decent offers for Morneau and certainly none for Span.

#26 70charger

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:02 PM

These types of threads tend to devolve into trade him vs. don't trade him, but there's so much assumed that there really isn't any information there. I bet that even the hard core don't trade him types would swap him straight up for Verlander. Right?

My position is that we should be fielding offers, asking for good pitchers, and just seeing what happens. If nothing worthwhile is on offer, keep him. (And I say that even though I think we could very well get some pretty good pitching in return.) We have to be agnostic about whether he gets traded, because we don't know what's out there. Generally we know what we need, but whether it's available - that's a different story.


Sorry, but the Span for Verlander scenario is inane and pointless. To the point - no team would be foolish enough to offer a good pitcher for Span. It'll be a Matt Capps for Ramos bonanza redux. Is J.C. Romero still in the league? That's the kind of offer they'll get. See if you can luck out and get somebody potentially good for Parmalee. Maybe shop Willingham as terrific as he's been this year. But, there'll be no decent offers for Morneau and certainly none for Span.


Span for Verlander was an extraordinary hypothetical. Of course it's not going to happen; it was supposed to illustrate a point.

As to your point, why not tell us why you think Span is so valueless? He's relatively cheap, he's under team control, he's an above-average defender, and he's a leadoff hitter. You really think that's worth nothing better than a Matt Capps type? Why?

#27 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:06 PM

Sorry, but the Span for Verlander scenario is inane and pointless. To the point - no team would be foolish enough to offer a good pitcher for Span. It'll be a Matt Capps for Ramos bonanza redux. Is J.C. Romero still in the league? That's the kind of offer they'll get. See if you can luck out and get somebody potentially good for Parmalee. Maybe shop Willingham as terrific as he's been this year. But, there'll be no decent offers for Morneau and certainly none for Span.


Span is considerably more valuable than you seem to believe. Above average up-the-middle guys don't grow on trees. Cost-controlled guys still in their primes are even more rare. If the Twins were looking for an infielder instead of a pitcher, Span probably would have been gone at the deadline. The trick is finding a team that has a surplus of starting pitching and a lack of outfielders. That's the difficult part. Finding value for Span shouldn't be hard in itself... Finding value you need is the hard part.

#28 Nick Nelson

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:44 PM

The trick is finding a team that has a surplus of starting pitching and a lack of outfielders. That's the difficult part.

http://www.baseball-.../TBR/2012.shtml

#29 JB_Iowa

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 03:20 PM

The trick is finding a team that has a surplus of starting pitching and a lack of outfielders. That's the difficult part.

http://www.baseball-.../TBR/2012.shtml


Well, it appears that financially it would work for Tampa as well (not to mention that it is Denard's hometown).

Span's $4.75 million in 2013 and $6.5 million in 2014 compares favorably to the $7 million they paid Upton in 2012 and the $6 million option ($1 million buyout) that Scott is signed for in 2013.

It helps that the $9 million for Span in 2015 is a club option with only a .5 million buyout

#30 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 04:17 PM

The trick is finding a team that has a surplus of starting pitching and a lack of outfielders. That's the difficult part.

http://www.baseball-.../TBR/2012.shtml


Tampa is a great match for several reasons. I'd love to see it happen.